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Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

 Blackie wrote:
So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.


It's not exactly the same thing, but some factions have certainly had a "soft squat", going this long with nothing more than an index or a White Dwarf "codex" (ugh). Some of them before later being squatted or else shifted elsewhere.
Imperial Agents/Witch Hunters/Inquisitors strike me as the prime example of one that didn't ever really come back - Sisters were definitely another until last year.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.


It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Tycho wrote:
Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.


Yep, 100% agreed. My Blood Angels still miss being able to take a proper Honour Guard with jump packs and variable weapon loadouts, and that was before Primaris even showed up.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Blackie wrote:

A kit certainly not, but an entire army? I was ok with GW putting to legend old big gunz and buggies/wartrakks since they were just a few units in an entire roster. Mek gunz and the new buggies vs big gunz and old buggies are basically like primaris vs classic marines, except in the second case we're talking about dozens of kits and entire collections of models that worth thousand of points.

So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me. GW could easily stop producing older kits but keeping the rules in the codexes, orks got their Big mek with KFF in the latest supplement despite the model has been OOP since a decade. It's not a huge effort to keep 30ish datasheets updated. GW guys don't put much effort in making the game rules anyway And they'd only be 15ish pages to print.

GW maybe thinks it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again, but if they squat my SW I'd just keep the orks or eventually I'd start a new faction. I honestly don't see any appeal in re-buying the same dudes I already own just with bigger and updated kits.


It's completely fair that you disagree, and the distinction between a handful of kits and an army is an apt one. Each person has their own perspective of value. The connection to having an army being used for as long as possible is completely agreed upon as well. My 3-8 years is if you bought your firstborn between 8th ed start and today. Did you buy the majority/entirety of your army in that timeframe?

-b-

I respect that the whole thing is subjective but what's a fair cost per year/month in your mind? As an example, I'll toss the calcs below.

I spent some time to find a legit pure firstborn list but failed. There was a crazy double spearhead firstborn that totaled $887 but it lacked the infantry to make razorbacks an option (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791545.page)

Instead, I made a ridiculous list that used no wargear options and the worst point-to-dollar ratio I can find. It was over by 32 pts but came to $919.
Two ridiculous lists get to around $900.
X years of use = cost per month

3 = $25
4 = $18.75
5 = $15
6 = $12.5
7 = $10.71
8 = $9.38

If you bought today and 9e was 3 or 4-years, that's rough. If you bought it all on the day 8e started, the 6 years is a reasonably expected minimum. Obviously, as 9e takes longer and/or you purchase earlier, it becomes less than a Netflix subscription or a couple of meals at a restaurant. The more you play the more value you get too.

Swapping Centurians for Terminators saves $24 and takes 15 more points, multiple times and for other units too. Start adding wargear and you're cutting needed kits quickly. This is also using the 2020 retail price. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't most $50 kits today $42.5 back in 2017? A while before that they were $35. On top of it all, this isn't taking advantage of Start Collecting type of sets or the widespread 15% off (20% if you got it from Neal, when he was around).

To be clear, I do believe the costs of models are higher than necessary, but I hope this explains where I find the reasonableness in value for time used Blackie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote:
So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.


It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.


That's not really what we're arguing though. It doesn't matter if the Space Wolves faction still exists, we were discussing what a reasonable value/time would be if most/all his Wolves models were bricked.

I'm not a fan of the Aspect Warrior Marines, but the second point makes sense and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the end result.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 22:39:10


 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Tycho wrote:
So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.


It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".



It's squatting any full collection of pre 8th models. All of them, not just some units. So yeah, it is squatting an army. Primaris were released only 3 years ago, it's not like squatting armies that haven't been updated since Rogue Trader.

If you think it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again good for you, I simply disagree with that logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cap'n Failboat wrote:

I respect that the whole thing is subjective but what's a fair cost per year/month in your mind?



There isn't any. When someone manages to get a collection of thousand of points of models there's no need to spend a single penny per month in order to stay in the hobby. In that case the fair cost per year/month is the amount invested in the rules, nothing else.

If GW releases models that I like I buy them, otherwise pass and keep going with what I already have. Being forced to buy because my army becomes obsolete is something I can't accept, an official model should stay legal forever.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 07:00:15


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Blackie wrote:
Tycho wrote:
So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.


It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".



It's squatting any full collection of pre 8th models. All of them, not just some units. So yeah, it is squatting an army. Primaris were released only 3 years ago, it's not like squatting armies that haven't been updated since Rogue Trader.

If you think it's ok to re-buy the same army over and over again good for you, I simply disagree with that logic.

who's re-buying their army? sounds pretty stupid to me
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cap'n Failboat wrote:

I respect that the whole thing is subjective but what's a fair cost per year/month in your mind?



There isn't any. When someone manages to get a collection of thousand of points of models there's no need to spend a single penny per month in order to stay in the hobby. In that case the fair cost per year/month is the amount invested in the rules, nothing else.

If GW releases models that I like I buy them, otherwise pass and keep going with what I already have. Being forced to buy because my army becomes obsolete is something I can't accept, an official model should stay legal forever.
legends are legal forever, so how is this an issue?
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Tycho wrote:
So yeah, 3-8 years before squatting an entire army seems very unreasonable to me.


It's not squatting an army though. Not really. You will still have marines. You just won't have old marines. It's removing a model line, not an army. That's partly why it's been called a "soft squat".

Also - to those who say we still need too many equivalents on the Primaris side - I don't think we do. Your old marines get a heavy and a special weapon? Well to quote GW "Guilliman remembers well the effectiveness of mono-tasked units during the Great Crusade". That's the fluff for Hell Blasters. I don't think GW is going to make 1-1 equivalents. I think they're going to make sure the army can essentially do the same things it's always done, but maybe in different ways. So if you're hanging your hat on "I still don't see rules that allow Intercessor squads to take heavy weapons", prepare to be disappointed.
. I say we have too many holes still, but not because Tacs had a special and a heavy.

The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

They need a medium tank. An Impulsor ain’t it.
They need aircraft.
Jump assault infantry. Outriders are here, but jump assault infantry yelling Death From Above is SM iconic.
The attack bike and the speeder are supposedly already in the pipe
Indirect fire artillery/ordnance aren’t needed yet because it’s not a thing yet, but it will be sooner or later.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Breton wrote:
The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.


Y'know what, Tor Garadon is the one new Primaris character I don't take issue with. For one, Lysander is a Terminator and there aren't signs of Terminators being squatted just yet - I accept they might be, but there's been not even a whiff of a replacement for them.
Meanwhile, Tor works ever so slightly better in the iconic image of a defensive Fists army. Lysander has no ranged weaponry, so while his Captain aura is useful, it's no more so than any other Captain - and his close combat loadout plus the potential transport cost makes him expensive in comparison. Unless you Deep Strike him, in which case you lose out on a turn or two of that aura.

I'll heartily agree that Dark Angels need a new Azrael, Ezekiel and/or Asmodai way more than they needed Master Lazarus-pit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 08:38:43


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:

Y'know what, Tor Garadon is the one new Primaris character I don't take issue with.


It's not about their rules/etc - he's not the "Face Of The Franchise". If you go ask a hundred players to name an Imperial Fist - How many name Lysander how many name Tor Garadon? Garadon hasn't gotten a Black Library book yet, Lysander has a half dozen books, short stories or novellas. Most of that is age in the hobby, but even Garadon's backstory in the codex revolves around a rivalry with Lysander.

They've got to make the guy everyone thinks of when they think of that Chapter into a Primaris, or they have to make a new Primaris guy into the guy everyone thinks of when they think of that chapter before they can squat the old marine.

Aggressors and Bladeguard are maybe the replacement for Terminators. Aggressors are the shooty ones. Move and Fire, Power Fists. Bladeguard are close combat, storm shielded. If normal marines get gone, so do Terminators. They are normal marines.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






I think Lysander in gravis armor would have been as much as a disappointment as Khan on foot was.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Think about it like this. GW has a stock of mini marine stuff to sell that isn't selling but they don't ever want to make it again. So they are just selling out their stocks. Their rules will likely be good for this edition but they will never make a non primaris kit again.

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?


I suppose if they had difficulty producing extra minis due to limits at a factory...

you know the factory that they just massivly increased in size?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote:
Cap'n Failboat wrote:


I see what you were saying now. Thank you for clearing it up for me. Yea, many of the chapter unique units won't take much work to Primarisize, but 3-5 years should be enough to get them done. For the more outlandish ones, I'm a lot less confident that they will replace all of them, mostly because they're relegating the separate codex chapters to supplements again.

LOL. I did qualify the flier statement with it being a big stretch. Know no Fear did have Primaris riding in a Stormraven, but I concede to your point. I wouldn't have been too bothered, but I can imagine a majority having issue with it. Either way, a pair of fliers isn't a tough ask.

I'm with you on the BA and Assault equivalents, and the non-Indomitus outriders. You know they're adding stuff in October and I'd guess that at least the ATV or Speeder, if not both show up with the codex. I would just say the ATV (to supplement outriders) but the Speeder's been pseudo leaked (ready) for longer. Then the predator equivalent out before BA, so that the Baal can come with them.


Some of them might never "Cross the Rubicon Primaris" as GW likes to call it. In the first place, if a couple minor characters die, it helps "Grimdark" how dangerous the surgery is. Likewise it gives them a fluffy reason to replace IP they want to swap out. Dante is something like 1100 years old. Not that he's who I'm thinking of. Vulkan and Lysander both stayed old school while their chapter got a new Primaris hotness. Vulkan was screaming Flamer Aggressor holding a spear. When they didn't cross his Rubicon I started hoping his insurance was paid up. Lysander is the trickiest one with Termie Armor, zero shooting and a Thunderhammer. The easiest one to dump is probably Cassius. He's 800 years old, his face is falling off of his steel skull, and even though they keep making a new Primaris chaplain whose face is falling off his steel skull, it's not been Cassius. UM Already have a ton of Specials, Deathwatch will need more. Exit Cassius the unplanned dinner entre for a lucky Hive Tyrant, enter Castor and Pollux the two DW characters - one captain, one chaplain/librarian/lietuenant who will rise from his ashes more determined than ever to uphold his legacy. Or something.


this was a boxed set made specificly for every faction hence their making that a generic. it's like how ABR called the captain in the box captain, even though he was basicly "plastic Cato Sicarius"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 10:40:47


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Jidmah wrote:
I think Lysander in gravis armor would have been as much as a disappointment as Khan on foot was.


I probably would have too, I did say I think he was the trickiest one to do. Also said I'm hoping Khan on Outrider comes out soon. Flamestorm Vulkan was the one I thought would have been a fairly simple slam dunk.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

One key fact many of you are missing is:

GW is a Business first, and foremost.

They retire kits based on their popularity over a period of time. How many Aquila Strongpoints do you think sold during their time? Conversely, the Tactical Squad kits must be selling still otherwise they would have gone the way of the IG regiments - I don't think many people bought Mordian Lascannon teams, outside of M2O... This in turn means that the currently least selling models will probably be retired. I suspect the Taurox could be on that list, as its been a Webstore Exclusive for quite some time, whilst the Chimera has been around for decades...

Another one to note is when you look at the IG stuff on sale you have the following:

Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Jungle Fighters (Webstore Exclusive)
Cadian Heavy Weapons Squad
Catachan Heavy Weapons Squad (Webstore Exclusive)
Cadian Command Squad
Catachan Command Squad (Webstore Exclusive)
Cadian Defence Force (Webstore Exclusive)
Catachan Defence Force (Webstore Exclusive)

I suspect that the Catachan sales are significantly less than the Cadian sales, so they are at the greatest risk of being retired. There is an additional thing to note: none of the Militarum Tempestus kits are Webstore Exclusive, barring the Taurox (which has parts to upgrade into a Taurox Prime).

I don't think that the Firstborn are at risk of anything happening to them as of yet... I can't say the same for the Kroot or Eldar Rangers...

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Blackie wrote:

There isn't any. When someone manages to get a collection of thousand of points of models there's no need to spend a single penny per month in order to stay in the hobby. In that case the fair cost per year/month is the amount invested in the rules, nothing else.

If GW releases models that I like I buy them, otherwise pass and keep going with what I already have. Being forced to buy because my army becomes obsolete is something I can't accept, an official model should stay legal forever.


Someone mentioned legends being forever, that doesn't compare and I disagree with him/her. Just like my PS3, it's no longer supported (legends), I can play games (find an opponent okay with legends), and may or may not be able to play a PvP match (event restrictions). Just like legends, the further we get from the date support ended, the use of the system (models) becomes less and less reliable. Supported systems and models can be used without question.

-b-

Points aren't the factor to consider here, especially with the more elite space marine armies. They are usually very point-to-cost efficient, SW even more so. X points also vary significantly to cost.

It's not a calculation of continued cost, you've already paid for the army. It's breaking down what you paid to how long/much you've been able to use them, as a measure of value. Alternatively, you can go by how many games you've played or how many hours of actual game time played. Time available for use after purchase is just the most easily and universally calculable, as most people don't track their games/time played. If not one of my suggestions, some kind of value analysis on any hobby expense should be taken by anyone on a budget.

The Primaris transition doesn't equate to being forced into rebuying an army "over and over" either. Base replacement was frustrating but that's far from the same. The closest would have been the old Rhino and Raider chassis conversion but they were still legit last time I saw one (~04) and affected five kits. Are they even prohibited now? Prior to Primaris, if someone got rid of their army and repurchased the same one later, that was of their own volition.

If your determined value for a unit's model/kit as being fully supported in perpetuity, that's what you think is the appropriate value. To me, that not realistic and far from reasonable. I'm not saying my acceptable value is ubiquitous either. Again, this is all subjective. I do compare our 10-25/mo to other hobbies or unnecessary expenses of people with similar interests, and it's not too bad. Board gaming/RPGs beats it out certainly. Certain sports range from zero to laughing at our complaining. Card/Vidya games also vary significantly. Movies are on par. I realize it's bad but I'm a smoker and a destroyer of Red Bull, those choices make Warhammer look cheap over time (expense example, others have different vices). (Knitting can be far cheaper but that's not something most of us are into, as an example of what I wouldn't use for comparison).

-CF





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote:


The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

They need a medium tank. An Impulsor ain’t it.
They need aircraft.
Jump assault infantry. Outriders are here, but jump assault infantry yelling Death From Above is SM iconic.
The attack bike and the speeder are supposedly already in the pipe
Indirect fire artillery/ordnance aren’t needed yet because it’s not a thing yet, but it will be sooner or later.


Some characters have already transitioned. They will have to do more or generate completely new ones. However, it's much more difficult to change a chapter's brand image to a new one when the old one's still front and center.

Medium tank, assuming you mean the predator, has already been leaked.
JP *Melee* and Aircraft, no argument from me.
Buggy (aka attack bike) model is clearly shown. Speeder, yep supposedly, but if the leak is not a speeder perhaps a flier.
BLOS, something to replace the WW is needed. Does that servo-turret count for the Thundy...not much fight from me here but it's at least a consideration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:

What advantage exactly are they getting from this over just moving all firstborn to direct order only?

They incentivize updating to Primaris.
They unify the image of SM to just one version.
They no longer have to consider those units for balancing purposes.
--as crap as they are with doing it, not having to deal with them is easier & faster than both versions--
They don't have to dedicate x pages in each codex for them
--x pages multiplied by y printed books add up, and they still sell the book at the same price--
They don't have to spend the time, money, and effort producing models that don't sell well, and focus on ones needed for variety (non-marines) & less prevalent and/or have higher sales potential.

-b-

You want to copy a winning tourney list or see GW buffing mini-marine units. Nice, those units probably see even more use. Now...which/how many of those first born kits do you buy? What do you not already have from 5-10-15 years ago?

Okay, you found something you need. Do you go through GW or a retailer? Does another local gamer not have a few of those kits still in a box/sprue/unpainted from 10 years ago? Some rando on ebay?

Yes, this will apply to Primaris too. The difference is that Primaris have been out for 3 years. Some modern marine kits have been out for nearly 20, around when most of the Rhino chassis converted to boxy from sloped ones (2001?). GW got their maximum return on investment for most kits years before Primaris. The Marine popularity compounds with the timespan units have been available resulting in a second-hand market flooded with them, limiting growth/profit.

I still think 10e is their expiration date but wouldn't be surprised they delay it to 11th to placate first born fans.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 21:08:01


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

The Primaris transition doesn't equate to being forced into rebuying an army "over and over" either.


If you are a SM player pre 2017 you actually have to re-buy your entire army in order to play if classic marines become squatted or legends. Legends are not always allowed.

A couple editions from now GW could say: oh those primaris are not tough enough for the current state of 40k and people love superheroes and bigger models anyway, so why don't we launch SM 3.0?

Cap'n Failboat wrote:

If your determined value for a unit's model/kit as being fully supported in perpetuity, that's what you think is the appropriate value. To me, that not realistic and far from reasonable.


To me it's very reasonable. GW charges a lot of money on rules alone. Even without spending a single cent in miniatures for an entire edition a player that wants to play with all the rules available has to pay a lot of money anyway. I could agree with you if ALL the books were released for free. The rules you find in them at least. But even without buying miniatures I can easily pay 300ish dollars per edition in rule-books. If I owned more than 2 armies the amount of money invested in books could be even higher than starting a full new 2000+ points army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 07:23:49


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 Blackie wrote:

A couple editions from now GW could say: oh those primaris are not tough enough for the current state of 40k and people love superheroes and bigger models anyway, so why don't we launch SM 3.0?



We're on at least Space Marines 3.0 now already, if you treat all RT metals and RTB01 as one, all 2nd-7th same scale as one and Primaris as third.


Grey40k wrote:
GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.


What took you 9 editions to realise GW sell 'new! improved!' versions of the same things to you? Like, apart from a new moniker and some new unit roles that weirdly rile people, they're just new Space Marines. This is not a new strategy for GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 07:33:32


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in za
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

Grey40k wrote:
GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.


Did you also ignore Battlefield IV when it was released because you own Battlefield 1942?

I get that having to buy new ranges is annoying AF and I'm also going to rile against my favourites getting Squatted but honestly? I'm not buying any GW releases because I literally have all I need. Sure I *WANT* a bunch more but there is no incentive for me to give GW any money without Primaris. *Personally* I'd have liked an updated release for any faction besides Space Marines. I'd loved to see a 2017 update to Orks and Eldar, shortly followed by Tau and then maybe Tyranids could have some love thrown their way rather than Marines 2.0. I'm hoping we'll get Xenos 2.0 soon and before SM 3.0

IMHO a less confrontational way would have been to just replace current models 1:1 with updates but then larger scale does need some sort of in-universe reason but they could have replaced the models.

KBK 
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:

What took you 9 editions to realise GW sell 'new! improved!' versions of the same things to you? Like, apart from a new moniker and some new unit roles that weirdly rile people, they're just new Space Marines. This is not a new strategy for GW.


It is, in fact, new; everyone can fact check it so why claim otherwise? Before they started their current waves of planned obsolescence, you could have run tactical marines from RT alongside your 7th edition new sculpts.

They are NOT just new SM, some of us may want to play the game outside of our yards and garages, were using first born as primaris is not allowed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kayback wrote:

Did you also ignore Battlefield IV when it was released because you own Battlefield 1942?


Not the same, at all. Before, if you preferred the new marine sculpts (and there were a bunch since RT) you could just buy them. A tactical marine was a tactical marine regardless of the edition. Now, they arbitrarily made them obsolete so that they could sell more.

Battlefield Xs are video games which have a natural rate of obsolescence which is much higher than miniatures. They do not need to forcefully retire BF games, people buy new improved versions.

They needed to hurt old marines with relatively worse rules so that they could sell primaris, and have the looming threat of squatting them as a deterrance for fielding them. It is planned obsolescence, not natural obsolescence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 08:04:01


 
   
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Cap'n Failboat wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote:


The special named has to be the face of the franchise so to speak. And he has to be Primaris if they’re going to Legend old marines
I can’t even remember the new guy’s name for IF or Salamanders. Tor something. And I only remember that because it reminded me of the Horus Heresy novel character. He is not yet the face of the franchise.

They need a medium tank. An Impulsor ain’t it.
They need aircraft.
Jump assault infantry. Outriders are here, but jump assault infantry yelling Death From Above is SM iconic.
The attack bike and the speeder are supposedly already in the pipe
Indirect fire artillery/ordnance aren’t needed yet because it’s not a thing yet, but it will be sooner or later.


Some characters have already transitioned. They will have to do more or generate completely new ones. However, it's much more difficult to change a chapter's brand image to a new one when the old one's still front and center.

Medium tank, assuming you mean the predator, has already been leaked.
JP *Melee* and Aircraft, no argument from me.
Buggy (aka attack bike) model is clearly shown. Speeder, yep supposedly, but if the leak is not a speeder perhaps a flier.
BLOS, something to replace the WW is needed. Does that servo-turret count for the Thundy...not much fight from me here but it's at least a consideration.

Leaked but not out yet. They have to be out to actually squat what they "replace".

"Face of the Franchise" doesn't necessarily mean prototypical of it. Way back when they were initially handing out flavor to the Big Four - each chapter got a basic squad

BA - Assault Squads
DA - Terminator Squads
UM - Tactical Squads
SW - Devastator Squads (not that it really worked)

Calgar and Sicarius both aren't really Tactical nor are their special abilities Tactical friendly. They're beat sticks in an army that isn't particularly known for them. Dante is easily a Veteran Assault Marine, Azrael is not a Veteran Terminator nor do his abilities point hard at them. Wolves and Dev Squads didn't last long, Ragnar IS very Grey Hunter and Grey Hunter friendly. Tor Garadon is on his way to replacing Lysander as the guy you think of. His rules are "better". He needs some black library love to cement it. They could easily just make a Primaris Thundercannon. When they make primaris tech marines. One thing we keep forgetting is... they don't.

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Grey40k wrote:
GW is a business, we must be ok with them destroying entire ranges with planned obsolescence to make more money.

Are you even a consumer? Is this consumer masochism, otherwise?

GW existed for many years without relying on such anti-consumer approaches (at least to the current extent). Just because they want to make more money it doesn’t mean we must roll over and let them step all over us. At least complain and call it what it is. Personally, I am not buying a single marine miniature in response to their commercial strategy.


I get where you're coming from, but don't make it out to be like they've been bricking an army line every couple years. The last one was 6 editions ago (1997?).

Which specific anti-consumer approach are you speaking of? I just want to make sure you're still talking about the removing/legends-ing of firstborn. That's not current, it's a possibility or even an eventuality. I really think it's going to happen but it's not a guarantee, nor is when I believe it'll happen (10th). If not that, they've periodically raised prices on us, incentivized sales through rules (remember 0pt dedicated transports?), invalidated units/lists through the same...forever.

Assuming you mean their deletion, I'd be more upset if the transition had been out of nowhere. We're looking at 6 years since Primaris' introduction (editions tend to average 3), or 9 years if we're off by an edition before they're removed. Transitioning in that time isn't insurmountable, getting value for your army in that timeframe is possible, maybe even easy if you've had most of your army prior to Primaris release.

We're also talking marines here. 2000pts is easily less than $1K investment to enjoy for the number of years we're talking about. It's slightly less in the EU & UK from my understanding as well. This isn't as big of a fleecing as you make it out to be. Of course, I'd prefer for my marines to last forever, but expecting them to is irrational.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 09:10:03


 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Moreover, one got two codices in one edition plus several codices and supplements for very prominent chapters.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Moreover, one got two codices in one edition plus several codices and supplements for very prominent chapters.


The page count point wasn't overly significant to begin with but neither argument works against it.

Each book costs X to make. Sells for $100
Each book costs (X - minuscule page savings) to make. Still sells for $100
Multiply by volume.

Codex double release in an edition just multiplies any savings from getting to print fewer pages, however small that it is.
It's a micro-saving from the printing process, another from the design process, another for the rules writing, etc. etc.
Probably not going to fill the coffers but is part of increased efficiency. I'm not going to fight hard for that point.

   
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Cap'n Failboat wrote:

Which specific anti-consumer approach are you speaking of? I just want to make sure you're still talking about the removing/legends-ing of firstborn. That's not current, it's a possibility or even an eventuality. I really think it's going to happen but it's not a guarantee, nor is when I believe it'll happen (10th). If not that, they've periodically raised prices on us, incentivized sales through rules (remember 0pt dedicated transports?), invalidated units/lists through the same...forever.

We're also talking marines here. 2000pts is easily less than $1K investment to enjoy for the number of years we're talking about. It's slightly less in the EU & UK from my understanding as well. This isn't as big of a fleecing as you make it out to be. Of course, I'd prefer for my marines to last forever, but expecting them to is irrational.


I am not exaggerating, and this is not business as usual.

GW supported mainstay miniatures over editions (e.g. tactical marines), despite releasing new models. The "new" approach started with the squatting of WHFB and was followed by the primaris approach.

Those are two examples of planned obsolescence and hence inherently anti consumer. They are also an order of magnitude bigger than the previous little tricks they pulled.

Whether warhammer is relatively cheap entertainment or not is besides the point. No one is asking for them to construct diamond miniatures that will last forever. But them using their market dominance to impose planned obsolescence is unequivocally bad for us consumers, let's just openly say it. My response is to avoid buying marines, and to systematically purchase from ebay / 2nd hand sources miniatures. I am not going to go as far as hurting my enjoyment to "punish" them, but I am certainly going to be very guarded in spending my money on anything GW related.


   
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South Africa

Grey40k wrote:

planned obsolescence and hence inherently anti consumer.


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

I know you dislike comparisons but expecting a company to stay in business by selling the same thing forever isn't viable.

I'd have like a revamp of the Xeno forces to make them more attractive but you're really making a mountain out of this re-scaled mole hill.

You can always use your Firstborn as a "counts as" army.

KBK 
   
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Breton wrote:


Leaked but not out yet. They have to be out to actually squat what they "replace".

"Face of the Franchise" doesn't necessarily mean prototypical of it. Way back when they were initially handing out flavor to the Big Four - each chapter got a basic squad

BA - Assault Squads
DA - Terminator Squads
UM - Tactical Squads
SW - Devastator Squads (not that it really worked)

Calgar and Sicarius both aren't really Tactical nor are their special abilities Tactical friendly. They're beat sticks in an army that isn't particularly known for them. Dante is easily a Veteran Assault Marine, Azrael is not a Veteran Terminator nor do his abilities point hard at them. Wolves and Dev Squads didn't last long, Ragnar IS very Grey Hunter and Grey Hunter friendly. Tor Garadon is on his way to replacing Lysander as the guy you think of. His rules are "better". He needs some black library love to cement it. They could easily just make a Primaris Thundercannon. When they make primaris tech marines. One thing we keep forgetting is... they don't.


I'll concede to jumping the gun a little with leaked stuff, but you can't pretend that it's all that far from being able to produce them when they're willing to officially display some of them. Doing a quick count through Battle Scribe, there are 40 unique units released between 8e and now. 13 of these are 3+ man squads, the remainder being individual characters or vehicles. If they continue the focus on Primaris as they did the last edition, it's not hard to get the units we've talked about into production and released in 3 years. Even then, a few gaps aren't going to be overwhelming. Lore is on the same boat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 09:54:51


 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Kayback wrote:
Grey40k wrote:

planned obsolescence and hence inherently anti consumer.


Is it though? Some models are over 10 years old. Do you still use a pre-2010 cell phone?

I know you dislike comparisons but expecting a company to stay in business by selling the same thing forever isn't viable.

I'd have like a revamp of the Xeno forces to make them more attractive but you're really making a mountain out of this re-scaled mole hill.

You can always use your Firstborn as a "counts as" army.


Do you know what planned obsolescence is? Because you answer suggests you don't.

Counts as was actually completely fine when they released new models but kept the IG rules (e.g. tactical marines); try going to any tourney with tactical marines that "count as" primaris, or with centurions that "count as" aggressors.

It is quite obviously a move to obsolete the old minis via rules. Not because I choose to buy a new tactical marine since I like the sculpt better, but because GW purposely decided to retire it. This is a textbook example of planned obsolescence. The fact that planned obsolescence hurts consumers is in general considered obvious, so I have trouble identifying what you do not understand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 10:26:03


 
   
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Cap'n Failboat wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Codex:SM has been more expensive than other codices for a while now...

Moreover, one got two codices in one edition plus several codices and supplements for very prominent chapters.


The page count point wasn't overly significant to begin with but neither argument works against it.

Each book costs X to make. Sells for $100
Each book costs (X - minuscule page savings) to make. Still sells for $100
Multiply by volume.

Codex double release in an edition just multiplies any savings from getting to print fewer pages, however small that it is.
It's a micro-saving from the printing process, another from the design process, another for the rules writing, etc. etc.
Probably not going to fill the coffers but is part of increased efficiency. I'm not going to fight hard for that point.



I still don't think all the advantages you listed will gain GW more than the money they would make by simply keeping a very small stock of oldmarines around and having another run of them whenever they find that stock to be running out. It's literally printing money at this point.

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Grey40k wrote:


GW supported mainstay miniatures over editions (e.g. tactical marines), despite releasing new models. The "new" approach started with the squatting of WHFB and was followed by the primaris approach.

My response is to avoid buying marines, and to systematically purchase from ebay / 2nd hand sources miniatures. I am not going to go as far as hurting my enjoyment to "punish" them, but I am certainly going to be very guarded in spending my money on anything GW related.


I'm not sure you understand that concept. Some models, as you point out, were legitimately out for over 20 years. I guess GW has a funny definition of rapid. That they sucked up extremely poor sales of WHFB's system for years as part of their nefarious planned obsolescence from the 90s. And you've equated a single line's termination now with planned obsolescence for every army. The clearly declining gross income for the company didn't spur them on either.

As an aside, I was legitimately surprised because when the Old World was exploded because it had been years since anyone in my area was playing it.

That's your response? That's standard operating procedure even before Primaris was a thing. As discussed, models/equivalent units in the line have been out for so long that needing to spend one more cent on a model was unnecessary for many of us.
   
 
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