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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Spoiler:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


But now consider a heavy bolter shooting each and you suddenly find PMs taking more damage in a world where D2/ D3 will be very popular.


   
Made in de
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Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


Well the Crypthek brings RP to 4+, the Reanimator to 3+(I think) and Ghost ark makes it rerollable.
   
Made in us
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Sgt. Cortez wrote:


Well the Crypthek brings RP to 4+, the Reanimator to 3+(I think) and Ghost ark makes it rerollable.


Maybe. I do wonder if its RP only for models on the table at the start of the turn, so, no RP on already deal models when your stubborn fails to connect. In that context 3+ makes sense.

   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


10 marines cost more than 10 warriors, plague marines are double a warrior currently aren't they? If anything you just confirmed they're annoyingly durable now.
   
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Noctis Labyrinthus

 Insectum7 wrote:

Here's my deal. What's a scarier nemesis?

A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.


B is scarier, and it's also extremely stupid and nonsensical.

Necron warriors can't be both a gigantic legion that can swarm you in bodies while also having each one be individually more formidable than a Space Marine. It's stupid, and making the warriors chaffier in the fifth edition codex was one of the few things I wholly liked about it.

Immortals should be physically hardier than Marines though, sure. At least T5, 3+, 2W.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

What does optimism mean here?
Optimism is more a personal view.

In view of the release of Necrons, one can see that the new models are great and nobody will have doubts about it.

From a gaming point of view, one can be optimistic or not.
If you just play casual games, go ahead.
But from a competitive pt of view, I wouldn't take Necrons to a tourney this edition (which I did very often in the 6th and 7th ed.).
This can be said from the rules rumored so far.
So here I'm taking a pessimistic pt of view.

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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


Well the Crypthek brings RP to 4+, the Reanimator to 3+(I think) and Ghost ark makes it rerollable.


even without a ghost Ark warriors are re-rolling 1s. so yeah a 20 man strong squad of warriors with the right support could be VERY hard to push off an objective. bring a re-animator along (ideally hiding that re-animator out of LOS) and you've got a pretty damn durable force. it's not going to be unkillable, but it'll certainly soak up plenty of firepower.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Or RP is simply another form of FnP and you don't roll to get back up for all casualties all the time.

Which to me seems much much more logical.
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


But now consider a heavy bolter shooting each and you suddenly find PMs taking more damage in a world where D2/ D3 will be very popular.


Right. This along with Quantum Shielding (assuming it doesn't change) is going to really mess with any army set up to deal with 2W space marines and their vehicles. Those armies will have to change up their tactics big time when they face Necrons. I like it.
   
Made in us
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I am quite hopeful that Crons have been tweaked back into being a more durable, deliberate attrition army.

Not quite the undentable powerhouse of 6th edition Decurion era, but an army where we can absorb a turn or 2 of alpha strikes while picking off heavy threats, and your opponent really starts feeling outnumbered around turn 3.
   
Made in us
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Scotland, UK

 Ordana wrote:
Or RP is simply another form of FnP and you don't roll to get back up for all casualties all the time.

Which to me seems much much more logical.


I strongly suspect this will be the case, yeah, with certain abilities (Res Orb, Ghost Arks etc.) allowing one off rolls for the whole unit.

Even if it's a 6+ RP roll, though, it's better than a 5+++ on anything greater than 1 damage for 1 wound troops, which makes Immortals at T5 tougher than PM are currently against 2+ damage weapons (PMs going to 2 wounds changes that obviously!). If it's a 5+ roll, if makes them straight up harder to kill than PM were. In an edition where multidamage to nuke marines is theoretically going to be more common, I'll take a flat 'no death' roll over a FNP.

And sure, we don't get a DR to reduce damage on multiwound models, but hopefully that's a niche that QS still fills (I can see QS staying broadly the same with an auto-fail on a 6 maybe?).
   
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Annandale, VA

 Void__Dragon wrote:
B is scarier, and it's also extremely stupid and nonsensical.

Necron warriors can't be both a gigantic legion that can swarm you in bodies while also having each one be individually more formidable than a Space Marine.


But it worked back in 3rd/4th, where Necron Warriors were individually better than Marines, but the army as a whole lacked models in between infantry and heavy vehicles, and the Phase Out rule encouraged beefing up your numbers.

Without transports, light tanks, Dreadnoughts, or even large infantry like Ogryns or heavy infantry like Terminators to suck up points, your average Necron list was a Monolith, some Destroyers, and a sea of infantry. I remember it was pretty common for a Necron army to have 60+ models on the table, and back in 3rd that was a considerable number of dudes.

Reducing the capability of the individual Necron Warrior while also adding a bunch of vehicles and heavy infantry really changed the flavor of the army. Not saying it was necessarily the wrong move as the original design was constraining, but the army concept of a legion of Terminators was unique and it worked.
   
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UK

Yeah didn't Necrons just "Vanish" at a random point during earlier versions. So whilst you might have won if you'd lasted 6 turns, you wouldn't because you'd just phase out.


   
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75% casualties in 3rd/4th caused you to be tabled.

 
   
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






 BroodSpawn wrote:
75% casualties in 3rd/4th caused you to be tabled.


75% of casualties with the Necron rule, Tomb Spyders, Scarabs, Pariahs, and the Monolith didn't have it, everything else was an actual Necron.

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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Insectum7 wrote:
Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W

It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.

Interesting comparison. We don't know the cost of the heavy intercessor yet do we? In any case. It really seems you are choosing between damage (immortals) or durability (heavy intercessors) here.

Immortal gauss is 5 ap-2 range 30 rapid fire 1
HI 5 ap-1 range 36 rapid fire 1

Same toughness/same attacks/same save. Crons have Reanimate (buffed now - it's basically FNP 5+) I can wager the HI is around 30-35 points...so about 2 for 1 on the immortals.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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From White Dwarf " The way reanimation protocols work has been changed in the new codex. Now Necrons can reanimate after each attack, making them very tough to kill off unless you can destroy the entire unit in one go. "

Necrons are gonna be beast in 9th, Immortals are gonna be harder to kill than most units in the game, and Deathmarks are also T5 I believe so they will be hard to shift as well. 20 man Warrior blobs will be a huge pain to get rid of. A Space Marine player may end up shooting at a unit with 3 different squads and then charging them in CC just to have a chance at finishing them off, and even then they could fail.
   
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 Alwrath wrote:
From White Dwarf " The way reanimation protocols work has been changed in the new codex. Now Necrons can reanimate after each attack, making them very tough to kill off unless you can destroy the entire unit in one go. "

Necrons are gonna be beast in 9th, Immortals are gonna be harder to kill than most units in the game, and Deathmarks are also T5 I believe so they will be hard to shift as well. 20 man Warrior blobs will be a huge pain to get rid of. A Space Marine player may end up shooting at a unit with 3 different squads and then charging them in CC just to have a chance at finishing them off, and even then they could fail.


Don't get too optimistic now. Inferring rule specifics from a sidebar description is an inexact process, and soaking 4 units worth of attacks probably isn't a reasonable expectation.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Do the math on removing entire squads with a single unit. 6 agressors could reasonably kill 20 warriors. It is well within reason that they could leave 1 or 2 alive and then nearly the whole squad revives with 4+/3+ reroll 1's. This is a massive increase in durability. Realistically this buff is better than the buff that marines got in 8.5. YES. It's better. If it works the way we think it does anyways.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Here's my deal. What's a scarier nemesis?

A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.


B is scarier, and it's also extremely stupid and nonsensical.

Necron warriors can't be both a gigantic legion that can swarm you in bodies while also having each one be individually more formidable than a Space Marine. It's stupid, and making the warriors chaffier in the fifth edition codex was one of the few things I wholly liked about it.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I am optimistic because the new models are just absolutely boss.

Generally GW gives good rules to models they want to sell.

I think if RP doesn't care about how much damage the model took, we may end up ahead of the game.

Getting the whole command protocols to battle plan once lists are revealed makes an interesting mechanic, which we don't fully understand yet. But its all good

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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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Been Around the Block




I believe that RP will work so that the roll is made after each unit has resolved all of its attacks against the necron unit. So, if a space marine intercessor squad fires all its guns at my 20 warriors, they roll ten, twenty or whatever attacks, resolve hits and wounds, I make my saves and then i make RP rolls for any model that failed its save and would be removed as a casualty as a result. So the only way to deny RP is to destroy the entire unit with a single round of attacks from one unit, otherwise i get to RP BEFORE you get to shoot the unit again with a separate unit. I also think it is a single roll when the model dies not a FNP roll which you would take for each point of damage.

I think someone said there was something about 6's in the report which could mean that RP has been nerfed to a 6+. That might make sense if you can stack bonuses to it from both a cryptek and reanimator as that would get the roll to 4+ which was the best it could be in days gone by. I think we will lose the opportunity to keep rolling evn for dead models until the whole unit is destroyed. However, Rites of Reanimation might enable us to either roll for units even if they have been totally wiped out or it might allow us to re roll RP rolls or something like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 17:09:15


 
   
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Voss wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
From White Dwarf " The way reanimation protocols work has been changed in the new codex. Now Necrons can reanimate after each attack, making them very tough to kill off unless you can destroy the entire unit in one go. "

Necrons are gonna be beast in 9th, Immortals are gonna be harder to kill than most units in the game, and Deathmarks are also T5 I believe so they will be hard to shift as well. 20 man Warrior blobs will be a huge pain to get rid of. A Space Marine player may end up shooting at a unit with 3 different squads and then charging them in CC just to have a chance at finishing them off, and even then they could fail.


Don't get too optimistic now. Inferring rule specifics from a sidebar description is an inexact process, and soaking 4 units worth of attacks probably isn't a reasonable expectation.


There are multiple youtuber's who have broken down the rule to basically mean what we think it means, its not hard to figure out from a logical point of view. We are smart people, the hint is all we needed to figure the rule out. There really is no other way to interpret the rule anyway. Your either coming back at the end of the Necron turn like you do now, or " after each attack " so as soon as a unit resolves its attacks, weither its shooting or assault, they get to roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as soaking up 4 units worth of attacks, I was thinking about basic troop squads like maybe 5 man Intercessor squads, which are common in Space Marine lists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 17:14:05


 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Do the math on removing entire squads with a single unit. 6 agressors could reasonably kill 20 warriors. It is well within reason that they could leave 1 or 2 alive and then nearly the whole squad revives with 4+/3+ reroll 1's. This is a massive increase in durability. Realistically this buff is better than the buff that marines got in 8.5. YES. It's better. If it works the way we think it does anyways.
Yes, if you pull stuff completely out of your arse its going to be a "massive increase".
And then proclaiming this ass pull is better then Marine 2.0 is just complete gravy on top.
   
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Chads need to eb chads or its clearly better than marines 2.0 XD

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 Ordana wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Do the math on removing entire squads with a single unit. 6 agressors could reasonably kill 20 warriors. It is well within reason that they could leave 1 or 2 alive and then nearly the whole squad revives with 4+/3+ reroll 1's. This is a massive increase in durability. Realistically this buff is better than the buff that marines got in 8.5. YES. It's better. If it works the way we think it does anyways.
Yes, if you pull stuff completely out of your arse its going to be a "massive increase".
And then proclaiming this ass pull is better then Marine 2.0 is just complete gravy on top.

I am simply taking the leaked information and applying it to the current rules. Then you'll notice at the end where I state..."If it works out the way we think it does".


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W

It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.

Interesting comparison. We don't know the cost of the heavy intercessor yet do we? In any case. It really seems you are choosing between damage (immortals) or durability (heavy intercessors) here.

Immortal gauss is 5 ap-2 range 30 rapid fire 1
HI 5 ap-1 range 36 rapid fire 1

Same toughness/same attacks/same save. Crons have Reanimate (buffed now - it's basically FNP 5+) I can wager the HI is around 30-35 points...so about 2 for 1 on the immortals.


Well for one thing, saying that the Immortals have the edge in firepower is just wrong, considering the Heavy Ints have the same AP in Tactical doctrine, but also better range, and much more widespread access to force multipliers (unless things are REALLY changing in the new book).

For another, Insectum's complaint is that Immortals are now hordes in comparison to Marines, and you're countering by pointing out that you can probably take twice as many Immortals as they can take Marines. Rather missing the point I think.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It sounds like we are just going back to something similar to 7e rule which is fine be me. For those who started in 8e, this should generally fix our faction because it was basically 8e RP that ruined us in the first place.
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


10 marines cost more than 10 warriors, plague marines are double a warrior currently aren't they? If anything you just confirmed they're annoyingly durable now.


But we were talking about 20 Warriors, 10 Warriors is going to be easier to move because all you need to be able to do is kill 10 T4 4+ models in one round of shooting. Considering the firepower that SM can put out that is an easy enough task. Yes cost is important but you are not committing that many more points in offense to take out Necron Warriors and by the way, would it be so awful if we had a unit in the game that could actually survive a turn of shooting? It isn't like the Warriors offensive abilities are going to rock the world once they waddle up to your lines and start firing, they are going to camp objectives and be hard as hell to move. I think that is a good thing even if I have to play against it.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Alwrath wrote:
 Argive wrote:
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)

This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.

Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..


Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck


I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.

Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.

Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.

10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?

Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.

So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.

Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.


10 marines cost more than 10 warriors, plague marines are double a warrior currently aren't they? If anything you just confirmed they're annoyingly durable now.


But we were talking about 20 Warriors, 10 Warriors is going to be easier to move because all you need to be able to do is kill 10 T4 4+ models in one round of shooting. Considering the firepower that SM can put out that is an easy enough task. Yes cost is important but you are not committing that many more points in offense to take out Necron Warriors and by the way, would it be so awful if we had a unit in the game that could actually survive a turn of shooting? It isn't like the Warriors offensive abilities are going to rock the world once they waddle up to your lines and start firing, they are going to camp objectives and be hard as hell to move. I think that is a good thing even if I have to play against it.


It's not a combination at all, I see it as a good thing and advocate both the buffs to crons and with a little luck I'll read a little more carefully next time!
   
 
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