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Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






Taurox on wheels i can get behind. Looks alot like an MRAP thay matches the army feel alot more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 08:10:24


6000 World Eaters/Khorne

7000 Space Wolves 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
 Cybtroll wrote:
The Taurox with wheels is pretty dope to be honest.

I don't like the ATV, but I don't like anything Primaris so I suppose I don't count.

It's a neat base for some conversions, however. I think Orks players specifically will have a field day when (if) it will be nerfed and the second hand market will be flooded with them... supposing they sell enough, of course.


I don't see them flooding the secondary market unless/until they're in a boxed set. People are either buying them for themselves because they like the army, or they're not buying them at all. They're not a Flavor Of The Month at this point. The Onslaught version isn't bad but basic SM Bikes will outpace it quickly, Erads already outpace the MM version. So the new Army every month competitive players aren't going to churn through them I suspect.


they're IMHO a bit of a sleeper hit within the new units. people are focused so hard on eradicators, but a ATV with a multimelta is gonna have a place. anyone rushing out to buy them to cheese the apocathary is going to be dissappointed, but I think over all the basic platform is definatly useful. at the end of the day it's a fast reasonably durable multi melta cart. drive those behind enemy lines and you're going to be able to pop a few tanks fairly fast. that said, Marines have a few options along those lines so we'll have to see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 08:17:10


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Cybtroll wrote:
The Taurox with wheels is pretty dope to be honest.

I don't like the ATV, but I don't like anything Primaris so I suppose I don't count.

It's a neat base for some conversions, however. I think Orks players specifically will have a field day when (if) it will be nerfed and the second hand market will be flooded with them... supposing they sell enough, of course.


I don't see them flooding the secondary market unless/until they're in a boxed set. People are either buying them for themselves because they like the army, or they're not buying them at all. They're not a Flavor Of The Month at this point. The Onslaught version isn't bad but basic SM Bikes will outpace it quickly, Erads already outpace the MM version. So the new Army every month competitive players aren't going to churn through them I suspect.


they're IMHO a bit of a sleeper hit within the new units. people are focused so hard on eradicators, but a ATV with a multimelta is gonna have a place. anyone rushing out to buy them to cheese the apocathary is going to be dissappointed, but I think over all the basic platform is definatly useful. at the end of the day it's a fast reasonably durable multi melta cart. drive those behind enemy lines and you're going to be able to pop a few tanks fairly fast. that said, Marines have a few options along those lines so we'll have to see.


Attack bike is 65% of the cost for the same MM shots. Erads are (I think) less than half for sort of the same shots. Speeders are cheaper too, unless you do Tornado in which case you can have "both" versions on the one model. I think ATV's are better off with the Onslaught. More and better shots than the HB Attack Bike, but still behind the Inceptors. I agree outside of Ravenwing we're not going to see a lot Chief Apothecary shenanigans with the ATV, but I'd also say the change to Apothecaries in general was just about making them more viable and less hamstrung by random do nothing pain.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Yes definitely. The apothecary thing is ridiculous but will almost certainly be removed.

But even then, this is an 8W model with respectable shooting for just 85pts. Its an absolute bargain, and will see play.

Personally I feel it should be reduced to 6W, and then it would be in a fair spot and still be playable. Same price.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Stux wrote:
Yes definitely. The apothecary thing is ridiculous but will almost certainly be removed.

But even then, this is an 8W model with respectable shooting for just 85pts. Its an absolute bargain, and will see play.

Personally I feel it should be reduced to 6W, and then it would be in a fair spot and still be playable. Same price.


maybe maybe not, ahrd to say, it's one of those units that IMHO we won't know for sure how good it is until we've had some time to see how it's used.
honestly there are so many solid choices in the fast attack slot I'm not really sure what to use, heh

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Stux wrote:
Yes definitely. The apothecary thing is ridiculous but will almost certainly be removed.

But even then, this is an 8W model with respectable shooting for just 85pts. Its an absolute bargain, and will see play.

Personally I feel it should be reduced to 6W, and then it would be in a fair spot and still be playable. Same price.


They apothecary thing probably isn't getting removed. Its just not going to practical to use it so it won't be an issue.

80 points for 8 shots is pretty baseline. 80 points for 12 shots isn't outside the norm. Two 40 point Termies get 8 shots. 4 20 points Intercessors get 8 shots. 2 40ish point Inceptors get 12 shots. 3 25ish point Bikes are going to get 12 shots.

Not everything that's new is broken and must be nerfed in the first week.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yes definitely. The apothecary thing is ridiculous but will almost certainly be removed.

But even then, this is an 8W model with respectable shooting for just 85pts. Its an absolute bargain, and will see play.

Personally I feel it should be reduced to 6W, and then it would be in a fair spot and still be playable. Same price.


They apothecary thing probably isn't getting removed. Its just not going to practical to use it so it won't be an issue.

80 points for 8 shots is pretty baseline. 80 points for 12 shots isn't outside the norm. Two 40 point Termies get 8 shots. 4 20 points Intercessors get 8 shots. 2 40ish point Inceptors get 12 shots. 3 25ish point Bikes are going to get 12 shots.

Not everything that's new is broken and must be nerfed in the first week.


you say it's not practical use, but remember Bike apocatharies are a thing for dark angels. and assuming the SW supplement let's wolf priests use the apocathary ressurection (not garnteed but IMHO a pretty safe bet) that's two marine sub factions that'll be able to RIDE an apocathary with the ATVs.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

BrianDavion wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yes definitely. The apothecary thing is ridiculous but will almost certainly be removed.

But even then, this is an 8W model with respectable shooting for just 85pts. Its an absolute bargain, and will see play.

Personally I feel it should be reduced to 6W, and then it would be in a fair spot and still be playable. Same price.


They apothecary thing probably isn't getting removed. Its just not going to practical to use it so it won't be an issue.

80 points for 8 shots is pretty baseline. 80 points for 12 shots isn't outside the norm. Two 40 point Termies get 8 shots. 4 20 points Intercessors get 8 shots. 2 40ish point Inceptors get 12 shots. 3 25ish point Bikes are going to get 12 shots.

Not everything that's new is broken and must be nerfed in the first week.


you say it's not practical use, but remember Bike apocatharies are a thing for dark angels. and assuming the SW supplement let's wolf priests use the apocathary ressurection (not garnteed but IMHO a pretty safe bet) that's two marine sub factions that'll be able to RIDE an apocathary with the ATVs.


Its best to ignore him as apparently everythng is fine in the new dex and in fact is probably underpowered like Eradicators and Agressors

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Breton wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Yes definitely. The apothecary thing is ridiculous but will almost certainly be removed.

But even then, this is an 8W model with respectable shooting for just 85pts. Its an absolute bargain, and will see play.

Personally I feel it should be reduced to 6W, and then it would be in a fair spot and still be playable. Same price.


They apothecary thing probably isn't getting removed. Its just not going to practical to use it so it won't be an issue.

80 points for 8 shots is pretty baseline. 80 points for 12 shots isn't outside the norm. Two 40 point Termies get 8 shots. 4 20 points Intercessors get 8 shots. 2 40ish point Inceptors get 12 shots. 3 25ish point Bikes are going to get 12 shots.

Not everything that's new is broken and must be nerfed in the first week.


I dont think everything should be nerfed in the first week, no need for the hyperbole. I just feel this specifically is a touch overtuned currently.

Its quality of shots too remember. This thing gets 6 bolter shots and 2 melta shots, which is a LOT better than 8 bolter shots.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:

you say it's not practical use, but remember Bike apocatharies are a thing for dark angels. and assuming the SW supplement let's wolf priests use the apocathary ressurection (not garnteed but IMHO a pretty safe bet) that's two marine sub factions that'll be able to RIDE an apocathary with the ATVs.


Already mentioned Ravenwing up above.

I agree outside of Ravenwing we're not going to see a lot Chief Apothecary shenanigans with the ATV, but I'd also say the change to Apothecaries in general was just about making them more viable and less hamstrung by random do nothing pain.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





As I said, space wolves MIGHT manage it too. of course if a space wolf player is running ATVs he's not running TWC so count your blessings

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Stux wrote:


Its quality of shots too remember. This thing gets 6 bolter shots and 2 melta shots, which is a LOT better than 8 bolter shots.


Whoops that's what I get for assuming. I thought it was a Twin (Rapid Fire) bolt rifle. They gave it Twin Auto? Why change the recipe? Bikes are supposed to be twin Rapid Fire.

Are 3 Melta and 6 bolter shots better than 6 bolter shots and 2 Melta Shots? in your quality of shots? Remember that 65% Attack Bike?


I dont think everything should be nerfed in the first week, no need for the hyperbole.
Are we in the first week? Are you complaining about something that just released? Are you doing it while ignoring things that have been around for decades and price out better or the same even after being told about them?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Complaining is an overly strong word. I dont feel thay strongly about it. I'm suggesting it could be tuned down slightly. Compared to Eradicators its nothing though, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about where the power level of the ATV sits and how well tuned its balance is.

I think you're being melodramatic bringing other balance issues into this. We could talk about that stuff, I'm not dismissing it, it just isn't the topic of this discussion.

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Stux wrote:
Complaining is an overly strong word. I dont feel thay strongly about it. I'm suggesting it could be tuned down slightly. Compared to Eradicators its nothing though, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about where the power level of the ATV sits and how well tuned its balance is.

I think you're being melodramatic bringing other balance issues into this. We could talk about that stuff, I'm not dismissing it, it just isn't the topic of this discussion.



I think space marine players are a liiiitle tired of all the drama that happens everytime we get a release.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Stux wrote:
Complaining is an overly strong word. I dont feel thay strongly about it. I'm suggesting it could be tuned down slightly. Compared to Eradicators its nothing though, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about where the power level of the ATV sits and how well tuned its balance is.

I think you're being melodramatic bringing other balance issues into this. We could talk about that stuff, I'm not dismissing it, it just isn't the topic of this discussion.



And I think you're backpedaling. I didn't bring other balance issues into it, I brought other similar units with similar performance for price that wasn't a problem, but the new thing "should be tuned down" with less than a week of life.

One and a half Attack bikes gets those 6 bolter shots and 3 Melta shots, but you're "suggesting" we "tune down" the new hot thing almost nobody has played with yet. And completely ignored the now two+ times the AB has been brought up.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





BrianDavion wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Complaining is an overly strong word. I dont feel thay strongly about it. I'm suggesting it could be tuned down slightly. Compared to Eradicators its nothing though, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about where the power level of the ATV sits and how well tuned its balance is.

I think you're being melodramatic bringing other balance issues into this. We could talk about that stuff, I'm not dismissing it, it just isn't the topic of this discussion.



I think space marine players are a liiiitle tired of all the drama that happens everytime we get a release.


Oh for sure, I am a marine player too. I already own an ATV, I posted a picture a couple of pages back. I'm advocating a tune down to a unit I personally own. With how this discussion is going I feel that is important context.

And to Breton, I dont know why you're fixating so much on a comment that was essentially just that the ATV is a bit above the curve. No backpeddling here, another melodramatic comment.

Yeah attack bike damage output is pretty good for the cost. You are correct, maybe they do need a couple more points on them. But maybe not, due to durability. Going from 6 (1.5 attack bikes) to 8 is a big deal.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




People complaining about low ground clearence dont realise that ATVs in real life have ground clearences ranging anywhere from 7.5 inches on the lower end to 14.5 inches on the higher end. Also when you compare this thing to a spacemarine standing next to it it comes up to up about halfway up their shin so it is probably got 12-16 inches of clearence. It know it looks funny at first but then realize the person sitting inside isnt a 4ft adolescent but and 8-9ft super human. Also in real life when you drive atvs you are not intentionally driving into pot holes or trying to turn it into a rock climber. Why would the be trying to do that in this setting. Im sure it happens and does get stuck but Im pretty sure those geneticly enhanced super humans in power armor can probably unstuck it real quick.
   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Its got better clearance than the land raider honestly.

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Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Stux wrote:


And to Breton, I dont know why you're fixating so much on a comment that was essentially just that the ATV is a bit above the curve. No backpeddling here, another melodramatic comment.

Yeah attack bike damage output is pretty good for the cost. You are correct, maybe they do need a couple more points on them. But maybe not, due to durability. Going from 6 (1.5 attack bikes) to 8 is a big deal.


That's OK I don't know why you're in such a hurry to nerf something that hasn't seen the table (much) yet. It is entertaining though to watch the hoops people jump through to rationalize it though.

ATV's do too much damage.

They've got an average numbers of shots.

It's the quality of shots. Melta!

Attack Bikes get even more.

They don't count, even though they do more damage and damage was what I was complaining about, they have slightly fewer wounds.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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