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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.
Traitors get daemon tech.

The trouble with 'heresy tech' is that most of it ties in with forgeworlds run of 'poorly written one-upsmanship tech' (and to a lesser extent their 'put all of the 40k stuff into the 30k game tech')
   
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A.T. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.
Traitors get daemon tech.


Also reaper autocannons etc. So heresy tech.
   
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 Ordana wrote:
Word Bearer novels have consistently painted them as a mostly coherent legion after the Heresy.

Read any of Dark Apostle, Dark Creed or Dark Disciple and you will see mentions of the structure and chain of command that still exists beyond warbands.

Dark Creed end with the Word Bearers loosing because infighting, with Marduk leading the Word Bearer fleet into being destroyed by the Imperials.

They may be a mostly coherent Legion, but they are still rife with self-defeating infighting.
   
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A.T. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.
Traitors get daemon tech.

The trouble with 'heresy tech' is that most of it ties in with forgeworlds run of 'poorly written one-upsmanship tech' (and to a lesser extent their 'put all of the 40k stuff into the 30k game tech')


demon tech and heresy tech. The dark mechanicus has stolen STCs for many heresy era tech and can still produce them.


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Hecaton wrote:
Also reaper autocannons etc. So heresy tech.
Pretty much the only example of unique heresy tech in a core chaos book that springs to mind, and not even unique anymore as Marines get them too (which I think is stupid, but marines get everything so...). All the other heresy stuff comes from forgeworld as a spin-off of their 30k project and has never been unique to the chaos factions.
   
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xerxeskingofking wrote:


yes, CSM should be marine centric, but the question is should Chaos, the faction AS A WHOLE, be marine centric, or should more effort be placed on building up the deamons the R&H, etc?


Except chaos as a whole isnt marine centric? But yes, give us a real renegades and heretics codex so that we can better represent what the main forces of chaos look like,.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Also reaper autocannons etc. So heresy tech.
Pretty much the only example of unique heresy tech in a core chaos book that springs to mind, and not even unique anymore as Marines get them too (which I think is stupid, but marines get everything so...). All the other heresy stuff comes from forgeworld as a spin-off of their 30k project and has never been unique to the chaos factions.


were talking about the fluff here, not the models.

30k rules/models are what best represent the legions. just for my nightlords, adding terror troops and night raptors in the game would do wonders to better represent my legion but, sadly, i cant use them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 17:48:50


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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.


Given we know Cawl was around during the Heresy, is it unreasonable to think that one of the bits he has squirreled away in a databank somewhere was the method to produce a weapon system from the Heresy?

And it's not like it is (currently) seeing widespread use - I count three datasheets with access to some form of Volkite weapon in the latest SM 'dex - Primaris Lieutenant (Bladeguard configuration), Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant and Relic Terminator Squad. NMNR stupidity means it is a weapon you can carry as a Sergeant and Lieutenant, but not as a Captain...

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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
were talking about the fluff here, not the models.
The written fluff is that chaos doesn't have much of the post heresy equipment (landspeeders, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, etc), not that they have some kind of exclusivity on the tech that both sides were using at the time.

Of course GW/forgeworld could have gone down that route but they opted not to. Whether that will change as they look to put out more marine releases to counterpoint the primaris marine releases who knows.
   
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Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.



   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.





oh look it's sunny side "never picked up a csm dex or FW" up.


Tell me, how then do you think the baseline for all these chaos marines exist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 18:10:41


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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.






thats a terrible take. and also wrong.

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The tech differentiation between CSM and Imperial Marines dates back to 2nd edition, which is when things like the Reaper autocannon and Havoc missile launchers made their first appearance. This was when GW started to differentiate the different factions more in terms of their weaponry, and the idea for the CSM was to make them look old and archaic compared to the Imperium.

The fluff background given was that some of the Imperium's later tech developments (derived from the Tech-Priests digesting STC fragments gained from the Great Crusade) like Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers never got a chance to filter into widespread usage among the furthest flung Legions (which were mostly the ones that turned to Horus). Subsequent to the Heresy and retreating to the Eye, the Traitor Legions stopped using Land Speeders and the like over time due to lack of logistics capability, with the Imperium retaining access to vital parts and STC blueprints.

Back then, the CSM were also the only ones to use the Mk.1 Plasma weapons which had a chance of overheating and hurting the wielder. Back in 2nd edition, the Imperium used later versions that instead had to recharge a turn between shots but had no chance of overheating. This fluff-wise was explained as the CSM preferring raw power of the old weapons even if it entailed risk (and I think also because the newer weapons again had no chance to filter out to them), while the Imperium eventually decided that the loss rates among Marines from their own weapons was too high and went for a slower fire rate.

So in a nutshell, the background said the CSM used older tech that they had the parts and means to maintain and older tech that they still were using because newer tech never had a chance to get to them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/22 20:37:34


 
   
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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Chaos hinging on that dumb Horus Heresy background is dumb.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of all Chaos Space Marines don't have any background or lore linking them to the Heresy.

That stuff should just remain in the 30K game.

While some of the Legions do a certain amount of recruiting to maintain their numbers, your number is not necessarily true.

Of course, not all the Chaos Marines started out in a Legion (like Blackheart's Red Corsairs, the only non-Legion Chaos character produced by Citadel), so that may be where you are getting the idea, but that number doesn't quite match the Legions', except the Thousand Sons.

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There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!



   
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VladimirHerzog wrote:
Spoiler:
Rosebuddy wrote:
Obviously many of the warbands can form under the common banner of their legion. If Perturabo sends out his mightiest to gather as many Iron Warriors as they can, that's going to happen. They'll pool together all their siege engines and build even meaner ones. But up until that point they're often rivals if not outright enemies and each band gathers its own materiel. That's what I think that a CSM army list should reflect. Not every single thing that a primarch can command when they launch an all-out offensive but the more common reality for the warbands.

The point is to make a CSM list that isn't just spiky space marines and giving them capital-e Evil counterparts to everything that Imperial marines has is counterproductive to that.


loyalists get cawl tech. Traitors get heresy-era tech.

Thats how you differentiate between the two. The problem is that now CSM are penalized for taking HH stuff because for some reason they also have to pay for martial legacy. And now primaris are getting volkite again so thats even more stuff that should be for CSM only that primaris are taking.

CSM should be marine-centric. If you want to add cultists/militia then just make an actual Renegades and Heretics codex instead of legending it.

Chaos as a whole is fethed right now because GW doesnt seem to want to give support to anything else than primaris. Make R&H, make Dark mechanicus (heck, you just need to give the FW stuff 40k rules and you'd already have a big part of the army done), and make God-centric codexes that include the corresponding legion (DG+nurgle demons, etc)

The reason is simple: Gw slapped Martial Legacy on anything that had the "Relic" rule in the loyalist fw index, then they copy pasted the loyalist rules for those units for all of the "chaos" versions, right down to the weapons, which is why csm lost things like Soulburner Bombards and havoc launchers, instead gw just wrote "Hellforged" in front of the loyalist weapons options and called it a day. That's why the Land Raider Achilles doesn't have Martial Legacy, even though it was an Infernal Relic for csm in IA 13, and why Dreadclaws and the Karybdis don't have it, even though they're hh models. It was a lazy copy paste job that didn't take into account the lore or Forge World's previous rules.

A.T. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
were talking about the fluff here, not the models.
The written fluff is that chaos doesn't have much of the post heresy equipment (landspeeders, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, etc), not that they have some kind of exclusivity on the tech that both sides were using at the time.

Of course GW/forgeworld could have gone down that route but they opted not to. Whether that will change as they look to put out more marine releases to counterpoint the primaris marine releases who knows.

Forge World did go down that route. That's why in 8th almost all Heresy era vehicles and weapons were locked behind the "Relic" rule for loyalists but the Legions could have all the Hellforged units they could pay for without restrictions. You can say fw rules were "poorly written" all you want, but they knew what they were doing when they wrote rules that forced loyalists to jump through hoops in order to use Heresy tech, but allowed csm to use it freely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apparently fw has read some Chaos codexes older than the 4th edition debacle and understood this:

Iracundus wrote:
The tech differentiation between CSM and Imperial Marines dates back to 2nd edition, which is when things like the Reaper autocannon and Havoc missile launchers made their first appearance. This was when GW started to differentiate the different factions more in terms of their weaponry, and the idea for the CSM was to make them look old and archaic compared to the Imperium.

The fluff background given was that some of the Imperium's later tech developments (derived from the Tech-Priests digesting STC fragments gained from the Great Crusade) like Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers never got a chance to filter into widespread usage among the furthest flung Legions (which were mostly the ones that turned to Horus). Subsequent to the Heresy and retreating to the Eye, the Traitor Legions stopped using Land Speeders and the like over time due to lack of logistics capability, with the Imperium retaining access to vital parts and STC blueprints.

Back then, the CSM were also the only ones to use the Mk.1 Plasma weapons which had a chance of overheating and hurting the wielder. Back in 2nd edition, the Imperium used later versions that instead had to recharge a turn between shots but had no chance of overheating. This fluff-wise was explained as the CSM preferring raw power of the old weapons even if it entailed risk (and I think also because the newer weapons again had no chance to filter out to them), while the Imperium eventually decided that the loss rates among Marines from their own weapons was too high and went for a slower fire rate.

So in a nutshell, the background said the CSM used older tech that they had the parts and means to maintain and older tech that they still were using because newer tech never had a chance to get to them.

Good to see someone actually understands some of the history of how the Legions were set apart from loyalists. Exalted, good sir.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/23 02:05:57


 
   
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 Kroem wrote:
There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





Very much not the case. People who play CSM generally want them to be legion-specific forces with a decent amount of 10k year veterans, whether they're a small warband or part of a larger legion, organizationally. It's GW (presumably codex writers who have a take on CSM like Cruddace on Nids) and players who don't play CSM who just want the faction to be less fun to play who push the "renegade warband" idea.
   
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Hecaton wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





Very much not the case. People who play CSM generally want them to be legion-specific forces with a decent amount of 10k year veterans, whether they're a small warband or part of a larger legion, organizationally. It's GW (presumably codex writers who have a take on CSM like Cruddace on Nids) and players who don't play CSM who just want the faction to be less fun to play who push the "renegade warband" idea.


There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
There has always been this tension in CSM fanbase between those who want the legions of the heresy and those who want an eclectic warband held together by a charasmatic Chaos Lord.
Whichever you prefer, thankful the CSM lore provides enough space for both interpretations.
However, I can definetely see the OPs point that the rules at the moment don't really do either justice!





Very much not the case. People who play CSM generally want them to be legion-specific forces with a decent amount of 10k year veterans, whether they're a small warband or part of a larger legion, organizationally. It's GW (presumably codex writers who have a take on CSM like Cruddace on Nids) and players who don't play CSM who just want the faction to be less fun to play who push the "renegade warband" idea.


There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


IT doesn't matter frankly, because as it is right now the system supports neither satisfiyingly nor competently.Not to mention that when the chaos posterboy faction isn't even propperly able to represent itself an expansion into R&H from gw would be an unmigitated desaster, as allready proven.

the best case imo for CSM would be:

You get the core legions, with unique units unlimeted access to heresy tech. Basically premade and specific in nature, expanded roster and abilites.

You get build a trait, which get a mult tiered deciscion system for warbands, f.e.

- Chose if legionaires or Renegades make up the warband. (stratagem fighting style heresy or stolen equipment) etc. (options for a part of a trait, picking specific legions as core or renegade sources should give various parts.)

- mono god alignement or multi god (unlocking cult marines or not) Focussing on a god should give advantages and disadvantages.

- Bunch of traits for specialisation.


Would also fit GW's recent tendency to actually make multitiered traits and abilities.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/23 09:06:28


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Dudeface wrote:

There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


I wouldn't really describe them as "plenty" compared to the people who play legions.
   
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Hecaton wrote:
Dudeface wrote:

There are plenty of people who play a renegade war band of one form or another, anyone playing a custom force or any of the renegade forces in vigilus etc.

The fact that fluff wise the second largest cohesive force of chaos marines are made up of renegade marines primarily should give them fair representation.


I wouldn't really describe them as "plenty" compared to the people who play legions.


Well since plenty isn't a finite term it's irrelevant, they exist. The other side of the coin being people go make up a custom force with personalised colour scheme and their options are stacked in favour of picking a legions rules to represent them. There is no diy chaos faction nor successors etc. to properly allow the creativity

So yes, when 9/10 of the rules are for legions, it's no shock most of the forces deployed use legion rules, regardless of the players personal force fluff.
   
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IT doesn't matter frankly, because as it is right now the system supports neither satisfiyingly nor competently.Not to mention that when the chaos posterboy faction isn't even propperly able to represent itself an expansion into R&H from gw would be an unmigitated desaster, as allready proven.

the best case imo for CSM would be:

You get the core legions, with unique units unlimeted access to heresy tech. Basically premade and specific in nature, expanded roster and abilites.

You get build a trait, which get a mult tiered deciscion system for warbands, f.e.

- Chose if legionaires or Renegades make up the warband. (stratagem fighting style heresy or stolen equipment) etc. (options for a part of a trait, picking specific legions as core or renegade sources should give various parts.)

- mono god alignement or multi god (unlocking cult marines or not) Focussing on a god should give advantages and disadvantages.

- Bunch of traits for specialisation.


Would also fit GW's recent tendency to actually make multitiered traits and abilities.



100% on board with this. If anything, i feel like custom traits wouldve been more appropriate to CSM than loyalists honestly. And yes, the main "problem" with the codex is that people keep pulling for legionnaires on one side and renegades on the other while in reality, this codex encompasses both.

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I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


I like this although the undivided daemons is a whopping 3 entries + belakor. I would like to see some more undivided daemons ala the ruinstorm ones.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


I like this although the undivided daemons is a whopping 3 entries + belakor. I would like to see some more undivided daemons ala the ruinstorm ones.

Yeah, you'd need to make a lot of new rules and models to make some of these work. Others could use a lot of existing product with an appropriate upgrade sprue or two.
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.


yeah, that would work and i'd love for legions and gods to get as much love as the chapters got with their supplements
Khorne and Tzeentch are more different than Ultramarines and Blood Angels.

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Or just do Daemons as two books:

The Lost and the Damned
Slaves to Darkness


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 04:37:49


   
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regarding CSMs, I think part of the problem is adopting an eaither or mentality to warbands and legions. yes the Legions exist, but most CSM forces, even among the legions are shattered warbands. they MAY have a core identity and even come together in rare cases, but they also have their own identity apart from it.
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I proposed what is IMHO the best way to reflect this, by making the legion tactic essentially HALF the equation, thus leading to legion war bands with some customization.

and IMHO thats what GW needs to do, reflect that the legions are there and respect this, but also note that the legions are indeed splintered and have rules to reflect this.

beyond that, CSMs also need some new units, as right now they're basicly 3rd or 4th edition space marine stuff... and some deamon engines. I think that GW needs to really SHOW how the CSMs have developed since the heresy. I'm not saying "just give them old HH stuff" but rather, take some of the heresy era designs, and extrapolate what 10,000 years in the eye of terror, being tinkered on by the dark mechanium has done to it. in short CSM should have reckongizable elements, but it shouldn't just be a buncha of plastic horus heresy kits with spikes.

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 Canadian 5th wrote:
I'd personally love to see a system that supports all of what Chaos should be, perhaps something like:

Codex: Daemons Undivided
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Nurgle
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Khorne
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Tzneetch
-Codex Daemons Supplement: Slaanesh

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
-Codex CSM Supplement: Legions
-Codex CSM Supplement: Renegades

Codex: Dark Mechanicus

Codex: Heretics and Rabble

Freshly corrupted Imperial Guard units would come out of the loyalist codex with an appropriate set of traits and keywords. Select forces could possibly ally without penalty but given that even loyalists can't do that I'm not sure Chaos needs that buff.

Instead what we have is:

Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Thousand Sons
Codex: Death Guard
Codex: Chaos Daemons
Codex: Renegade Knights

... and a fond memory of what was R&H in IA 13.

I agree with other posters that the main constraint is the need for more models to support an expanded set of Codexes.

But there's this other question that comes to mind: when has GW ever gotten Khorne right? Last thing I want is another army sitting on a shelf.

Aside from the original World Eaters Codex from White Dwarf, the original CDaemons where half the army deep struck, and 5th edition Berzerkers (who could get a lot of work done jumping out of Rhinos,) I'm having a hard time remembering when there was a good reason to run a Khorne Army. Same goes for Slaanesh, Noise Marines have been overcosted and impotent in most editions (salvo rules ruined them in 6th.)

The real reason we don't get coherent Codex options has been the Chaos tax. Paying more for units that die just as easily as their loyalist counterparts cripples mid-range assault armies, and I think GW knows not many players will choose to invest in them. When you consider a single Berzerker model has typically cost about 20% more than a Space Marine (or 30% for Noise Marines,) the joint disincentives for manufacturer and consumer become more obvious.

I'm optimistic the 9th edition Codex will bring more parity between the factions and maybe open up some doors for expanding the line. But rumors about Fulgrim and Angron have been circulating since 2017 and it doesn't feel like we're quite there. Something else needs to change before they can expand the line for Chaos.

Going back to the original topic, I played a Daemon Primarch army last edition that had 5 Marines total and one of them was Ahriman. Power builds consisting of elite HQs are not as much of an option in 9th, but I could see some successful lists that have no CSMs, Havocs, Raptors, etc becoming a thing.

   
Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





I would definately like to see more Unaligned warp entities not neccesarily demons but ill take more unaligned demons.

+1 to pushing out the rest of the legion books
+1 to R&H, traitor guard and all that.

-100 to me having to buy 7+ books if everything turns into suppliments

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 techsoldaten wrote:
Same goes for Slaanesh, Noise Marines have been overcosted and impotent in most editions (salvo rules ruined them in 6th.)
Slaanesh have had some of the best toys in multiple editions - 3e had sirens throwing deepstrike assault daemonettes, 4e had the lash prince, AP3 flamers and some reasonable milage out of I5 though into 5th and their daemons could do good work. I think most of 6-7th got lost in the hunt for invisible deathstars and other cheese - S8 AP3 ignores cover blasts are good but a bit thin for a faction identity.
8e though everyone was playing slaanesh for a while - I had oblits, havoks, and a juiced up daemon prince in my default list. No noise marines but I think that was just early 8th and its emphasis on CP farming.

Thinking back it was always piecemeal, they'd always have something good but you'd not often take a whole army of them if you were playing for power rather than for fluff.
   
 
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