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I DEFINITELY disagree with that.

You need to remember that they had kill on site orders for a man who was innocent. They never intended to put him on trial. Caps stance for why he should bring in Bucky was both to protect others and to protect Bucky who was actually innocent of every crime people wanted to lay at his feet. He WAS brainwashed. He didn't bomb the UN.

Caps stance was all morality and ethics. "We don't trade lives." He won't stand idly by and let one person be executed because it's easier for everyone else.

Voss wrote:
I definitely don't agree with that. Cap threw morality and ethics out the window in civil war (and honestly in Winter Soldier and a little bit in First Avenger), all he cared about was doing anything at all to save his buddy, who had absolute immunity to any consequence because he was Cap's buddy.

The tension of the film was that they were opposed because they couldn't agree, but the moral debate they were theoretically having was a muddled mess because what they were doing was completely add odds with what the script had them recite in the pre-spectacle fight build up.

Tony... I don't even know what he was supposed to be doing in this film. Any futurism or ideas were gone, he was just suddenly an angry lapdog and yes man and recruiting children to fight because... Uh, Sony said it was fine?

As I've said before, I feel that Civil War suffered from many of the same issues as BvS. The central conflict just didn't work very well, and parts of the plot come apart when you start pulling on threads. Main differences were people were more invested in the characters, and the movie was brighter lit. And I 100% agree that was not a recognizable MCU Tony Stark.

Edit: Back on topic, I watched part of one of the Garfield Spidey films the other day, and it reminded me how good he was in the suit. Those films had Spidey's banter and personality DOWN...it felt right from the comics. Garfield's version was the best IMO, even if the other two actors got to be in better films.

I thought Civil was an odd duck - good but not as good as many others. Its a million times better than Bats vs Sups however.

Cap threw morality and ethics out the window in civil war (and honestly in Winter Soldier and a little bit in First Avenger), all he cared about was doing anything at all to save his buddy, who had absolute immunity to any consequence because he was Cap's buddy.

This I sort of agreed with - especially since Tony's parents were brutally murdered by him so it made his motivations more understandable - my friends disagreed, focussing on the brainwashing.

Tony wants to make the world a better place but his methods are not always the...best.

I have never liked Spiderman or Peter Parker but found the MCU version the least ojectionable so far.

 gorgon wrote:

And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.

I think that's a little reductive of where we leave off on the character. Steve's decision isn't really about retreating the modern world for simpler times or anything like that. It's not like we see him scared to the past by TikTok or something. The past is just where Peggy is and he takes his chance to be with her in his future. I suspect had it not worked out, he'd have just moved forward in the present. In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on, which is a lesson Steve takes to heart. He entrusts the future to his friends and finds happiness for himself, which in many ways shows more of a willingness to move on than anything that would retain the status quo.

In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on

He was happily married with a kid before the the team came looking for help - he had moved on and definately had the best life of all those who survived the snap.

Which makes it so sad Strange got him killed.....

Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.

Mordin? Is that a play on my username?

Its a bit more like "We can save half the universe (including some of the people you cared deeply about) - you are the only person who can help...." Given his ego and need to be a saviour, hard to refuse but its a pretty big thing to say no to.

If they had not come to him... he would not have gone looking for a solution as he already had his happy ending.

I guess its part of the swan song for the older MCU cast but its notable how little Strange does in either film especially given how powerful his portals are as weapons (shown in same film)

 Mr Morden wrote:

Mordin? Is that a play on my username?

Scientist in Mass Effect that dies personally overseeing that a cure is distributed correctly. Those were his last words.

I'm not saying Tony's choice was wrong, nor was it wrong of him to make the sacrifice play, I'm just saying that Steve's choice isn't really wrong either.

Well, it’s also Tony making the sacrifice play. Being faced with lying on the barbed wire, because you’ve no way to cut it.

That’s part of his own arc, learning ever greater responsibility. That not every situation has a convenient technological solution.

Add in that he not only knew the impact of doing the snap (covered earlier in the film, twice), but also being one of at least two (possibly no more than two) that this was the one in 14,000,000 where we and not he personally win.

Imperfect as it might be, there is a beautiful poetry to the MCU.

Cap in particular finally gets the chance to demob. To very literally, chronologically speaking, return home and rediscover/reclaim his civilian life. Something his army chums from the 40’s got to do decades ago, but he never did.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, it’s also Tony making the sacrifice play. Being faced with lying on the barbed wire, because you’ve no way to cut it.

That’s part of his own arc, learning ever greater responsibility. That not every situation has a convenient technological solution.

Add in that he not only knew the impact of doing the snap (covered earlier in the film, twice), but also being one of at least two (possibly no more than two) that this was the one in 14,000,000 where we and not he personally win.

Imperfect as it might be, there is a beautiful poetry to the MCU.

Cap in particular finally gets the chance to demob. To very literally, chronologically speaking, return home and rediscover/reclaim his civilian life. Something his army chums from the 40’s got to do decades ago, but he never did.

Hmm but Tony already made the sacrifce play in Avengers. However it only made him try harder to find solutions and face up to his responsabilites to Pepper and later his child.

We only have Stranges word for the 1 chance - and it made no sense (for me)

* Chop off Thanos gauntlet hand with a portal and you win
* Chop off his head with the same and you win.....thats 2 right there.

Now maybe there is a another reason that Stark needs to die....good or bad.

Well, Dr Strange saw 14,000,000 possible outcomes.

How do you define a win there? Is it just stopping Thanos with your suggest portalling off the Gauntlet? But how does that stop anyone else gathering the stones and doing it again, given they’re now most definitely not a legend?

Look at how End Game actually, erm, ends. Thanos defeated. Snap largely undone. Stones then destroyed in the present and future, but returned where they needed to be for your past leading to those events to happen uninterrupted.

No stones left for anyone else to do potentially worse (me? I’d just give everyone but me Bumeyes, where your eyes become bums so you fart when you see). Out of harm and temptation’s way.

That’s the biggest possible win. From a certain point of view.

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.

I think that's a little reductive of where we leave off on the character. Steve's decision isn't really about retreating the modern world for simpler times or anything like that. It's not like we see him scared to the past by TikTok or something. The past is just where Peggy is and he takes his chance to be with her in his future. I suspect had it not worked out, he'd have just moved forward in the present. In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on, which is a lesson Steve takes to heart. He entrusts the future to his friends and finds happiness for himself, which in many ways shows more of a willingness to move on than anything that would retain the status quo.

I think it might be more reductive to say it was just about Peggy. His decision is personified in Peggy, but it's really more than that. He chooses the known quantity of the past over the present and all its possibilities. In the comics he finds a greater love in Sharon. But to me, the notion is there in his sendoff that he's happier -- and better off, really -- existing decades ago, where he can listen to his big band music and enjoy the sepia filter. As if he can't thrive in today's world, and as if today doesn't deserve him.

I get the real world moviemaking factors in play. I get that these movies are very intentionally not being made for people like me...they just throw in a lot of references and easter eggs to try to make me feel like it. But I think it was a bad read on what Captain America is really about, and probably a very lazy take on 'good then' versus 'bad now' to boot.

Meanwhile, Sharon Carter's a villain.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, Dr Strange saw 14,000,000 possible outcomes.

How do you define a win there? Is it just stopping Thanos with your suggest portalling off the Gauntlet? But how does that stop anyone else gathering the stones and doing it again, given they’re now most definitely not a legend?

No thats what he told us he saw - no other confirmation so to me suspect.

Thanos is dead - no Snap. Better than "Snap largely undone" As Thanos said himself "Should have gone for the head" but then to be fair we would nt have had another awesome movie.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Look at how End Game actually, erm, ends. Thanos defeated. Snap largely undone. Stones then destroyed in the present and future, but returned where they needed to be for your past leading to those events to happen uninterrupted.

No stones left for anyone else to do potentially worse (me? I’d just give everyone but me Bumeyes, where your eyes become bums so you fart when you see). Out of harm and temptation’s way.

That’s the biggest possible win. From a certain point of view.

Are the stones truely gone in the present? Also you can just do what they did and go to another universe to get them? I can see what you mean if they are truly gone.

If not whats the difference except the universe did not end for half the people for several years, and Vision and Natasha (amongst others) would be alive.

I still maintain it was Steve Roger’s best, possibly only chance to demob, and happily so.

He’s more than served his country. He’s served world and all of reality. He has the opportunity to duck out without actually letting anyone down - anyone at all, because his going back to Peggy doesn’t preclude his past happening.

He’s simultaneously enjoying the post-military life, in his own time, and still frozen beneath the ice. Peggy being a member of military intelligence should be clued up enough to maintain the secret and preserve the necessary timeline. A positive twist on don’t ask, don’t tell. Just have a pic of weedy Steve on your desk, go back to hunky Steve at night - with both reminding her why she loves him. It is after all very telling that the pic she keeps of Steve is weedy Steve, not hunk Steve.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, Dr Strange saw 14,000,000 possible outcomes.

How do you define a win there? Is it just stopping Thanos with your suggest portalling off the Gauntlet? But how does that stop anyone else gathering the stones and doing it again, given they’re now most definitely not a legend?

Look at how End Game actually, erm, ends. Thanos defeated. Snap largely undone. Stones then destroyed in the present and future, but returned where they needed to be for your past leading to those events to happen uninterrupted.

No stones left for anyone else to do potentially worse (me? I’d just give everyone but me Bumeyes, where your eyes become bums so you fart when you see). Out of harm and temptation’s way.

That’s the biggest possible win. From a certain point of view.

I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.

I think that's a little reductive of where we leave off on the character. Steve's decision isn't really about retreating the modern world for simpler times or anything like that. It's not like we see him scared to the past by TikTok or something. The past is just where Peggy is and he takes his chance to be with her in his future. I suspect had it not worked out, he'd have just moved forward in the present. In a lot of ways the story of Endgame is Tony trying and failing to move on, which is a lesson Steve takes to heart. He entrusts the future to his friends and finds happiness for himself, which in many ways shows more of a willingness to move on than anything that would retain the status quo.

I think it might be more reductive to say it was just about Peggy. His decision is personified in Peggy, but it's really more than that. He chooses the known quantity of the past over the present and all its possibilities. In the comics he finds a greater love in Sharon. But to me, the notion is there in his sendoff that he's happier -- and better off, really -- existing decades ago, where he can listen to his big band music and enjoy the sepia filter. As if he can't thrive in today's world, and as if today doesn't deserve him.

I get the real world moviemaking factors in play. I get that these movies are very intentionally not being made for people like me...they just throw in a lot of references and easter eggs to try to make me feel like it. But I think it was a bad read on what Captain America is really about, and probably a very lazy take on 'good then' versus 'bad now' to boot.

Meanwhile, Sharon Carter's a villain.

I guess I just don't read it that way. I don't get the impression he would have stayed for anyone but Peggy. She's reinforced as his only real motivating factor throughout the film and the only thing he shows a real affinity for even when they return to the base.

Oh agree with the Steve outcome - that all seemed good to me in the film.

I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.

We know that using the portal to chop off his head however ends that fight then and there and given that Mantis has him unconsious......

 Mr Morden wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.

Mordin? Is that a play on my username?

Have you really never played mass effect?!

I read/watched a thing recently that points out that Tony Stark basically already considers himself dead from the moment he gets out of the cave.

All of his time from the death of Yinsen forward is about trying to live up to Yinsen's words. And in doing so diving forward on what he consciously or subconsciously considers borrowed time.

It's not that he's actively suicidal. But he's reckless and VERY willing to make the sacrifice play even if there might be another option because he "shouldn't be here. I should have died in that cave."

It doesn't take him even a moment to decide to fly the nuke through the portal. Or crash and burn his entire life while giving away all his stuff. Or tell a terrorist organization to come to his house and try to kill him. Or sit under Ultron's floating death city expecting to die. etc etc...

Tony Stark is SUPER willing to die in any given moment if it's needed to fix the problem right in front of him. And that doesn't mean he doesn't try to live. Just that his willingness to die is always right there beside him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Oh agree with the Steve outcome - that all seemed good to me in the film.

I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.

We know that using the portal to chop off his head however ends that fight then and there and given that Mantis has him unconsious......

That still leaves the gauntlet with like... Tony or something. Where something way worse could happen as a result. Dr. Strange is looking for a scenario where they win by his standards (the universe is safe and things move forward correctly). The infinity gauntlet left in the hands of pretty much anyone isn't a win.

YES. Strange could have chopped off whatever. That doesn't make it a win. It's why during that entire fight Dr Strange stays quiet and says nothing. He just does his part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

Meanwhile, Sharon Carter's a villain.

You know, Secret Invasion has been announced.

Sharon Carter might not BE Sharron Carter.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Oh agree with the Steve outcome - that all seemed good to me in the film.

I always find this funny in the Star Lord hate. It assumes getting the Gauntlet off Thanos somehow wins the day, while I'm largely under the assumption that Thanos didn't really need the gauntlet to win that battle.

We know that using the portal to chop off his head however ends that fight then and there and given that Mantis has him unconsious......

Still doesn’t deal with the Stones, or the temptation they represent.

That cat was out of the bag at the end of Infinity War. And it’s their sheer potential that’s the true villain. Thanos was kinda bonkers, that much is true. But given we’ve seen the one in 14,000,0000 win play out? It’s about what that win represents.

Let’s say Dr Strange uses the time stone to keep resetting that scene. Initially, just to provide clear, concise advice to his allies. They stop Thanos there and in any of a wide variety of possible methods. Great. You’ve stopped Thanos.

Except……Thanos was never, ever the problem. The problem is the ability to unilaterally reorder Reality. Exactly who would you trust with that? Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The reality Dr Strange ultimately ushered in is, when you think about it, the most amoral reality. Enough for all of reality to appreciate just how much power an individual can wield - whilst removing that potential from the grasp of the majority.

One could question “but how did Dr Strange know that an Avenger wouldn’t use the time travel tech to go and ruin it?” Simple answer? He did. And whatever he did, he did with the foreknowledge that his actions would avoid that.

He knew that allowing Thanos to initially win, then destroy the Stones was the best (though not only necessary) path to the best possible victory. Not just undoing and defeating Thanos, but denying as many people as possible the shot at replicating Thanos’ ultimately fleeting success.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.

Mordin? Is that a play on my username?

Have you really never played mass effect?!

Nope - I have it somewhere but never got round to it!

That still leaves the gauntlet with like... Tony or something. Where something way worse could happen as a result. Dr. Strange is looking for a scenario where they win by his standards (the universe is safe and things move forward correctly). The infinity gauntlet left in the hands of pretty much anyone isn't a win.

YES. Strange could have chopped off whatever. That doesn't make it a win. It's why during that entire fight Dr Strange stays quiet and says nothing. He just does his part.

Maybe..... maybe.....guess its bigger picture - although Strange would control where the Gauntlett went......and it implies only a few people can use it and no die in the process?

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he ultimately comes back out of his own need to solve the problem. The team comes to him with "we think we might be able to invent time travel" as a solution. It's not exactly an urgent call for help. He dies a very Mordin death. Had to be me, someone else might have got it wrong.

Mordin? Is that a play on my username?

Have you really never played mass effect?!

Nope - I have it somewhere but never got round to it!

That still leaves the gauntlet with like... Tony or something. Where something way worse could happen as a result. Dr. Strange is looking for a scenario where they win by his standards (the universe is safe and things move forward correctly). The infinity gauntlet left in the hands of pretty much anyone isn't a win.

YES. Strange could have chopped off whatever. That doesn't make it a win. It's why during that entire fight Dr Strange stays quiet and says nothing. He just does his part.

Maybe..... maybe.....guess its bigger picture - although Strange would control where the Gauntlett went......and it implies only a few people can use it and no die in the process?

It's less about dying in the process. What damage can be done? What if another Kycellious get's his hands on the Gauntlet. A Zealot who is happy to die to dump all of reality into the Dark Dimension and handed on a platter to Dormamu.

Okay, so to address the portal thing, have we ever actually seen Strange open one up where something is? Black Dwarf loses a hand because he sticks it in the portal to get Peter, but it still requires him sticking his hand in the garbage disposal. The portals also appear stationary once summoned, so you can't open one then move it over someone before closing it and in a fight they generally seem a little imprecise in general. He gets very good with them, but they don't open and close so quickly that using them offensively seems very practical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I still maintain it was Steve Roger’s best, possibly only chance to demob, and happily so.

There's some cool discussions out there about why there are different words for soldier and warrior and what that really means. I think we have a tendency to lump our heroes in the latter category, but in doing so, we tend to strip away who they are as a person and make their defining characteristics more about how they fight, why they fight, how good of a fighter they are, and who they would win in a fight against. There purpose becomes war, which is why heroes that survive tend to live long enough to become the villain. At some point you're just fighting because that's all you do, and sooner or later the only stories left to tell about fighting are the ones where you're on the wrong side.

 LunarSol wrote:
Okay, so to address the portal thing, have we ever actually seen Strange open one up where something is? Black Dwarf loses a hand because he sticks it in the portal to get Peter, but it still requires him sticking his hand in the garbage disposal. The portals also appear stationary once summoned, so you can't open one then move it over someone before closing it and in a fight they generally seem a little imprecise in general. He gets very good with them, but they don't open and close so quickly that using them offensively seems very practical.

One of the first portals we see (I think it's actually the second) is when the Ancient One opens a portal out of the mirror dimension ally way where she fought Kycellious and his crew on the side of a building. She summons it and then sweeps her hands back moving the portal towards her as she steps through and dissipates it farther back behind her. Then Dr Strange does the same thing to Loki and Thor when Loki goes to attack him after opening the portal to Norway. He just moves it on towards them and shuts the door after they leave. Finally, Wong opens a portal for Bruce Banner that doesn't just dump him in the park it takes a piece of the car with it. Showing that a portal can be either opened into/onto objects or be moved through them making them into some kind of portal knife/loop.

It CAN be done for sure.

Maybe we should make a thread about Infinity War/Endgame so we can have a thread to talk about Spiderman: No Way Home.

The Shang-Chi teaser has a wizard use a portal to make the Abomination hit himself in the face.

Pretty fun.

Is Wong leaving the Sanctum* in the trailer do we think he is going to appear in the Shang-Chi film?


*= Do not read this asterisk for your own sanity!



Sanity broken.

 Easy E wrote:
The Shang-Chi teaser has a wizard use a portal to make the Abomination hit himself in the face.

Pretty fun.

Is Wong leaving the Sanctum* in the trailer do we think he is going to appear in the Shang-Chi film?


*= Do not read this asterisk for your own sanity!

Spoiler:

The Sanctum Santorum makes me think of Rick Santorum, which makes me think of a certain slang, which makes me horrified that Dr. Strange lives there, but it does explain why it is now all white.

Sanity broken.

Pretty sure Wong’s the wizard fighting Abomination.

 Easy E wrote:


Is Wong leaving the Sanctum* in the trailer do we think he is going to appear in the Shang-Chi film?

Benedict Wong has been at Shang-chi pressers, I'm sure.

Let me reiterate, I am sure Wong is in Shang-chi. I am less sure if Shang-chi and No Way Home are taking place at about the same time in the MCU timeline.

From the darkness I re-summon this thread... for a new trailer:




No Tobey.
No Andrew.
No Venom.

After social media being so convinced that Tobey and Andrew are in this movie, it's going to be hilarious if it turns out that their 'parts' are nothing more than stock footage flashed up as part of a 'Yup, Spidey exists in multiple universes!' montage...