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Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

Deadnight wrote:
In Infinity, the game could be described as 'always being your turn. They declare an action,I declare a reaction (shoot back, dodge, etc) and there is a roll-off as to who 'wins'. Its not takinf your turn rolling against a static number and then being the static number for the other guy.

Heh, could you imagine if Counter-Charge, Counter-Blast, and Admonition were standard options for everything in WMH instead of a carefully parsed out Special Rule?

Still, the LotR turn structure you mentioned (which is similar to Battletech's, but they are AA within the Phases) would make such considerations almost unnecessary. Those above rules are incorporated because you as the player can't otherwise be doing anything else and no capacity to react to the other player's actions. By alternating such actions, reactions can be incorporated as part of the normal game structure.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





A quick reminder that registration for the Brawlmachine Update 1 league is open until April 30 and begins on May 1, along with information about submitting lists for the league!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/9/brawlmachine-update-league-11-registration-and-list-submission
   
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Line of Sight is proud to announce registration opening for the 2021 Brawlmachine Team Championship on Wartable.online! This three person team event has registration open until May 21, 2021, with list lock on June 11, 2021 and first round beginning on July 2, 2021.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/8/brawlmachine-team-championship-registration-and-information


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaden continues the budget brawlmachine series with Khador and Vladimir 2 in Wolves of Winter!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/12/brawlmachine-for-175-or-less-khador

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 01:09:56


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Line of Sight is proud to announce registration opening for the 2021 Brawlmachine Team Championship on Wartable.online! This three person team event has registration open until May 21, 2021, with list lock on June 11, 2021 and first round beginning on July 2, 2021.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/8/brawlmachine-team-championship-registration-and-information


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaden continues the budget brawlmachine series with Khador and Vladimir 2 in Wolves of Winter!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/12/brawlmachine-for-175-or-less-khador


Look. I appreciate what your group does for this game.

But at this point, why?

The hype this game had is long gone. Why haven't you moved on to a better game? Or better yet, why aren't you creating that better game (And making it your own?)

It's time we memorialized and buried Warmahordes. The rotting corpse is such a foul scent.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

SuperHappyTime wrote:
 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Line of Sight is proud to announce registration opening for the 2021 Brawlmachine Team Championship on Wartable.online! This three person team event has registration open until May 21, 2021, with list lock on June 11, 2021 and first round beginning on July 2, 2021.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/8/brawlmachine-team-championship-registration-and-information


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaden continues the budget brawlmachine series with Khador and Vladimir 2 in Wolves of Winter!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/12/brawlmachine-for-175-or-less-khador


Look. I appreciate what your group does for this game.

But at this point, why?

The hype this game had is long gone. Why haven't you moved on to a better game? Or better yet, why aren't you creating that better game (And making it your own?)

It's time we memorialized and buried Warmahordes. The rotting corpse is such a foul scent.



Why - because people still enjoy the game and people still have the models for the game and still want to buy more.
Because they enjoy the style and design of models; the lore; because they've sunk hours in to building and painting their army; because they enjoy the style of the game; the look on the table and a load of other reasons.


Just because its not the "new hotness" doesn't mean its invalid. I've often noted that there's a segment of gamers always eager for the next revolution in gaming design and style; yet in reality its rarely a revolution and more just some different and new and fresh (to them) mechanics. Often they are just old ideas brought around again or put together a slightly different way .

   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




SuperHappyTime wrote:
 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Line of Sight is proud to announce registration opening for the 2021 Brawlmachine Team Championship on Wartable.online! This three person team event has registration open until May 21, 2021, with list lock on June 11, 2021 and first round beginning on July 2, 2021.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/8/brawlmachine-team-championship-registration-and-information


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaden continues the budget brawlmachine series with Khador and Vladimir 2 in Wolves of Winter!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/12/brawlmachine-for-175-or-less-khador


Look. I appreciate what your group does for this game.

But at this point, why?

The hype this game had is long gone. Why haven't you moved on to a better game? Or better yet, why aren't you creating that better game (And making it your own?)

It's time we memorialized and buried Warmahordes. The rotting corpse is such a foul scent.


Brawlmachine has actually been a single thing in the last few years that made MORE people play the game where I am, with a few starting and a few returning. Apparently the 2x75pts standard was a huge turn-off for most, but the most hardcore, WTC-oriented guys.

The entire PP activity has been pushing people away from rather than into the game. I appreciate that LOS managed to buck this trend.

I see how WM&H is in a decline but I see no problem with finding ways you can still enjoy it. All you need is 2-3 people who want to play the game with you. After all if you buy a new board game for your group to play you don't care if there's a community or continuous support around it, what matters is that you have 3-4 players to play it. Why would you care with WM&H?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 10:52:05


 
   
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If you’ve ever wanted to play a Skirmish, narrative based game set in the Iron Kingdoms, this is for you. If you’ve ever wanted to fully customize a Warband of deadly models to your desired specifications and set them loose on your friends, this is for you. Line of Sight is proud to present the next update to Fallen Corvis, with huge new ways to experience Warmachine on the tabletop. Come and see, it’s worth a look!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis/2021/4/17/fallen-corvis-update-11


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SuperHappyTime wrote:
 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Line of Sight is proud to announce registration opening for the 2021 Brawlmachine Team Championship on Wartable.online! This three person team event has registration open until May 21, 2021, with list lock on June 11, 2021 and first round beginning on July 2, 2021.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/8/brawlmachine-team-championship-registration-and-information


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaden continues the budget brawlmachine series with Khador and Vladimir 2 in Wolves of Winter!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/12/brawlmachine-for-175-or-less-khador


Look. I appreciate what your group does for this game.

But at this point, why?

The hype this game had is long gone. Why haven't you moved on to a better game? Or better yet, why aren't you creating that better game (And making it your own?)

It's time we memorialized and buried Warmahordes. The rotting corpse is such a foul scent.


I've thought about this question a lot over the last few weeks, because it's not the first time someone has asked me.

First off, I've played every single major miniatures game on the market at this point. AoS, 40k, Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine, MCP, Judgement, I've played them all. I keep coming back to Warmachine, and I think that it's important that someone be making the things that I've been making.

There are good arguments along the lines of "yes, the company should be doing them" to be had to that point, and I can't deny that it would be cool if PP was creating Brawlmachine and Fallen Corvis (hey check the post above this one, I think it's a super fun game!). But they aren't. Maybe they can't. And I can. And it's making a difference.

Which brings me to my next point. The things that I'm doing are making a difference. I've received literally hundreds of messages from players who are either finding the game or coming back to the game through Brawlmachine. There are places in the world that have gone from 2 players to 20 players and all they play is Brawlmachine. If Warmachine is going to come back, it's going to be through that avenue.

Why aren't we making our own game? Well I kinda did/am already. Fallen Corvis is essentially an RPG/Tabletop blend game with a proprietary ruleset that I developed. Maybe in the future you'll see a kickstarter announcement for something we make, but how can we make a good game of our own without making good games in an existing place first? None of us are game designers. I'm a music teacher, Chandler does voice over work, Bret does IT. If we ever wanted to make a game, these two are great training grounds for game design.

Warmachine is one of the most engaging games when it's done well. I'm just doing what I can to show that to more people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 15:03:22


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

@LoS_Jaden:

I haven't played in a few years and am pretty ...cynical? pessimistic? about how PP is handling the game right now, but keep doing what you're doing. It's cool that people are starting to play again through Brawlmachine.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

SuperHappyTime wrote:
The hype this game had is long gone. Why haven't you moved on to a better game? Or better yet, why aren't you creating that better game (And making it your own?)

It's time we memorialized and buried Warmahordes. The rotting corpse is such a foul scent.

Warmachine isn't a bad game, though. In fact, it is better than most. Right now the biggest problems are PP's interactions with resellers and the competitive gatekeepers who push Steamroller. No one but PP can handle the first part, but people like those at LOS are doing what they can about the latter.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





FWIW, I've seen that post verbatim in several different places. I'm pretty sure its mostly trolling. The concerted will to make sure Warmachine dies has been one of the weirder social media things I've seen. It's been going on since the waning days of MK2, but there's just these people that need it dead for some reason.

I'll be curious to see what PP does next. Covid gave them a chance to balk on Steamroller and let the game coast for a bit. Prior to the lockdown, Hungerford was actively trying to steer the game towards smaller point levels, but the community lashed out hard at the idea. I find it interesting that by letting their hand off the wheel, the game seems to have drifted that way naturally.

I've heard the one big thing PP hasn't been willing to do to do Brawlmachine themselves is ban models. I think the lack of huge bases in particular is something they're a little shy of officially declaring, which I get both sides of. Personally, I'm hoping they come out with 50 pt SR soon, but at the moment, I think they're mostly happy to let the community drift away from the hardcore SR on its own.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I wouldn’t put it the same way that SuperHappyTime did. But regardless of the causes or drivers the simple fact is WM/H is not in a good place and hasn’t been since the bungled Mk3 launch. Either in term of the game, position and reputation with stores and how it viewed by the rest of the wargaming community. And im really not certain that in its current form, with how PP is right now, that its going to get any better. Its going to stay where it is with mostly the same community and with most people outside the game believing what they believe about it. In this world perception is everything.

For me, im waiting to see what the rest of 2021 brings. But I think the game is really stuck where it is near the bottom of the wargaming market and consciousness.
Unless PP has the balls to properly modernise the company and overhaul WM/H with a formal fresh edition, nothing is going to change. Especially with so many people out there actively “against” the game.

That said, I desperately hope that in a years’ time I can look back at these posts and laugh about how wrong we all were. But iv not seen anything coming out of PP that convinces me otherwise.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

I'd chime in to add that I think WMH would be really well suited to a PC format. A direct port, no real time nonsense, move of the game to online PC would solve a ton of problems.

1: It allows players and designers to consign units like in M:TG. No need to paint, model, then cry when you unit gets nerfed or banned from a particular tournament format.

2: The computer deals with the fiddly rules. For many people the high skill ceiling of the game is pretty much the point: if we are going to lose, we like losing because of some really clever use of the byzantine rules. It is a bit of a pain for new players, however, and even experienced ones forget important rules now and again. Let the computer deal with measuring, rolling dice, rule interactions, etc.

3: Much faster games. Getting curb stomped is less painful when it is quick and you can try again easily. I remember playing M:TG games in under 5 minutes front to back in college, getting some 10 games an hour. compare that to one game in a relaxed mode per afternoon, and that is unappealing. If I could play 2-3 games in an evening with a buddy while still relaxed and chatting, that would put a huge buffer around the negatives of one particular game.

In general, I think WMH was a good game that appealed to a very different part of the mini-hobby from 40k: the part that thought it was fun to study to get better. I know I spent a lot more time studying than playing. I never quite got that from 40k. As such, I think WMH can't quite work the same as 40k in business strategy, and I think PP stumbled over that.

That said, I haven't played much in the past 3 years, moving around too much. Mk3 definitely put me off, and our local group, but I think it could have been done well, as there was still a lot of activity around Mk2 that was squished.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

 Wehrkind wrote:
I'd chime in to add that I think WMH would be really well suited to a PC format. A direct port, no real time nonsense, move of the game to online PC would solve a ton of problems.

1: It allows players and designers to consign units like in M:TG. No need to paint, model, then cry when you unit gets nerfed or banned from a particular tournament format.

2: The computer deals with the fiddly rules. For many people the high skill ceiling of the game is pretty much the point: if we are going to lose, we like losing because of some really clever use of the byzantine rules. It is a bit of a pain for new players, however, and even experienced ones forget important rules now and again. Let the computer deal with measuring, rolling dice, rule interactions, etc.

3: Much faster games. Getting curb stomped is less painful when it is quick and you can try again easily. I remember playing M:TG games in under 5 minutes front to back in college, getting some 10 games an hour. compare that to one game in a relaxed mode per afternoon, and that is unappealing. If I could play 2-3 games in an evening with a buddy while still relaxed and chatting, that would put a huge buffer around the negatives of one particular game.

In general, I think WMH was a good game that appealed to a very different part of the mini-hobby from 40k: the part that thought it was fun to study to get better. I know I spent a lot more time studying than playing. I never quite got that from 40k. As such, I think WMH can't quite work the same as 40k in business strategy, and I think PP stumbled over that.

That said, I haven't played much in the past 3 years, moving around too much. Mk3 definitely put me off, and our local group, but I think it could have been done well, as there was still a lot of activity around Mk2 that was squished.


Well, they tried the video game thing, and it didn't work. PP in general, as a company, is not in a place financially where they can successfully fund a good video game translation of the current WMH miniatures game.

Warmachine/Hordes worked perfectly fine for a very long time, until suddenly it didn't. I think there's certainly room in the wargaming hobby for a ruleset like PP's that emphasis good, fairly balanced rules and a competitive mindset. Through a combination of various factors, Privateer Press ended up either mismanaging or dropping a lot of balls and that's how we ended up here in this thread, discussing all of this.
   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

 Wehrkind wrote:
In general, I think WMH was a good game that appealed to a very different part of the mini-hobby from 40k: the part that thought it was fun to study to get better. I know I spent a lot more time studying than playing. I never quite got that from 40k. As such, I think WMH can't quite work the same as 40k in business strategy, and I think PP stumbled over that.
When I talk about WMH, I often quote you saying that WMH is a "bathroom game" because of how much time you need to spend reading up on the various factions, themes, units, abilities, etc. One presumes while pooping, as with all serious reading

I've been pretty interested in Brawlmachine, and have almost ordered a Cyrenia army several times. But I've since convinced myself that I'll be just as happy finally painting a solid 50 pts of all this Cryx I've got built and primed, which I'm more likely to maybe play in the grim darkness of the near future, assuming BM doesn't catch on wildly in the post-Covid life of my FLGS.

EDIT: If we're making minimum viable wishlists for WMH, mine's pretty simple: lower point games (50 please) and no more facing. The (IMO archaic) minutiae of facing is easily the biggest drag on actually playing for me, and sure its removal would take some tactics and special abilities out of the game, but I think speed and fluidity of play increases for it. I mean, Warcaster already removed it, right? It also helps with stated issues above about units being really cumbersome. I 100% would remember more about unit coherency and stuff if I wasn't ultra-paranoid about how rotated each dude in the unit was.

Oh, and I guess wishlist #3, cooler themes please. Themes are one of the reasons I threw in with WMH so hard in MK2, a feeling that MK3 has successfully 180ed to be very much a turnoff.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 16:53:11


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





FWIW, removing facing was one of the first things mentioned in a dev talk interview for things they'd like to do.

Personally, I like facing, just because it helps draw the battleline that creates that football scrum feeling that I find so unique to the game. Models with 360 arcs had weird interactions much of the time in my experience, though I think there are definitely ways to change the rules to make it work without them and I totally agree it would vastly speed up the game.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Wehrkind wrote:
In general, I think WMH was a good game that appealed to a very different part of the mini-hobby from 40k: the part that thought it was fun to study to get better. I know I spent a lot more time studying than playing. I never quite got that from 40k. As such, I think WMH can't quite work the same as 40k in business strategy, and I think PP stumbled over that.

The funny thing is, 40K was that way for a LONG time. It wasn't as noticeable due to the scale the two games operated at, but it really came to a head in 7th Edition, which is notable for being one of the most hated 40K editions.

The reason it wasn't as noticeable in 40K was two fold. 40K fielded a lot bigger armies, which means that "gotcha" moments tended to not carry the same weight as they do in WMH. If you lose your Troop unit, that was one out of 10 units in your army, but in WMH losing a unit mean that a quarter to a third of your army is now gone, and it gets worse with Steamroller scoring.

The second part is that WMH is focused on the Warcaster/Warlock, so most of that "gotcha" is focused on all the spells and the Feat of said character. For all the power some units had in 40K, no Pysker had the spell list of a Warcaster or Warlock, nor were they so disproportionately healthy and resilient when compared to almost any other unit they were with. In many ways, WMH is still in their "HeroHammer" phase, and I don't know of a way to get out of that part. And without doing that, there is always going to be a bit of that "studying the enemy" aspect to WMH.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Oh, and I guess wishlist #3, cooler themes please. Themes are one of the reasons I threw in with WMH so hard in MK2, a feeling that MK3 has successfully 180ed to be very much a turnoff.

I agree, the Mk 2 Themes seemed more in control than they are in Mk 3. Part of that is due to how Mk 3 Themes fit numerous Warcasters and Warlocks in them while Mk 2 focused on the one. Then there is also the factor that Mk 3 Themes allow for "free" models which means playing outside of Theme is stupid. Now, some of the Mk 2 Themes did have "free" models in them, but they weren't that common or only applied to Attachments.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




 LunarSol wrote:

Personally, I like facing, just because it helps draw the battleline that creates that football scrum feeling that I find so unique to the game. Models with 360 arcs had weird interactions much of the time in my experience, though I think there are definitely ways to change the rules to make it work without them and I totally agree it would vastly speed up the game.


I agree. It's a perfect rule IMO.

- it's easy - LOS, back strike bonus, done.
- it's intuitive - it's obvious for everyone that you can't attack what you can't see and you're easier to hit from behind
- it's based on player's agency - no randomness or gotcha! effects or obscure combos, just plain, good maneuvering
- it's impactful - there are decisions involved, not always easy, there's opportunity for neat moves and for mistakes, you feel rewarded for doing it well

I wish all rules could come in such a nice, elegant package of all 4 qualities a good rule can have.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Better said than I. Very much agree.

I do also see the issue they present with units though. Worrying about the facing of 10+ models can be very fiddly and only REALLY matters in rare instances.
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Atlanta, GA

 LunarSol wrote:
Better said than I. Very much agree.

I do also see the issue they present with units though. Worrying about the facing of 10+ models can be very fiddly and only REALLY matters in rare instances.


Maybe the key is to keep facing only for certain units? Maybe anything on a 40mm+ base. I like facing, personally. One of my biggest pet peeves in 8th/9th edition Warhammer 40K is that they did away with vehicle facings altogether. I recognize that a certain level of abstraction is necessary, but being able to fire the weapons on a Land Raider that's facing backwards at the turret on a Leman Russ that's otherwise completely behind a wall is ridiculous. (And said Russ can fire back because you can draw LOS from the turret to the Land Raider.)
   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

 Mr. Grey wrote:
Maybe the key is to keep facing only for certain units?
Huge bases - which have the facing presculpted on the base - are probably the strongest argument for keeping a large-scale version of facing around, with the addition of L/R grids and weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 20:38:21


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in no
Umber Guard





The rules for WmH are going to stand the test of time, I think. It is a good base system and works brilliantly for the scale of game WmH is. There are many tweaks that can be made, but at its core, the system is good. Facing can be removed, or used on just some model types, and personally I'd like more of the old power attacks and slamming or throwing your own dudes-stuff back. It was fun and allowed for some interesting interactions that were mainly ruined by some models getting rules that were too good at exploiting it.

The issues we're seeing now are not a new thing for me - we saw the same amount of craziness back in 2008 and 2014, although it is exacerbated by the larger model line, multi-faction themes and RQ model insertions. I will definitely be playing Brawlmachine in the coming year, and get in a few 75 pts games as well.



   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I feel the opposite. Wmh was a game that in many ways frankly was ahead of its time, ten or fifteen years ago. These days its showing its age, especially at the size of game its currently played at. it's an igoyougo game firmly based in the 90s and noughties- to be fair 40k has elements stemming from the 70s and 80s. Hell it took until convergence before its signature mechanic (focus) could be all it could be.

So many of these elements of games have evolved, even in the last ten years. Igoyougo, resource management, game size/accessibility.

Pp for all their faults, are often clever enough to innovate. It's not for me, but look at warcaster. I like the 'list-less' nature of the game, and the mechanic that translates better accuracy into more damage us quite clever. And while you can see ita wmh roots, it has moved on. I suspect this is wmh's legacy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/21 12:56:54


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in no
Umber Guard





"Evolved" is a funny word when it comes to activation systems. I have played games with alternative activation systems over twenty years ago. And I have played what I perceive as actual skirmish games (that is, 5-10 models at most) older than that. IGUG and AA (to take two activation models) can exploit different rules mechanics (as can 40k's phase systems) than each other. They have different strengths and weaknesses.

You are talking about fashions more than evolution, I believe - although the finesse of a system can always be improved of course. But I do agree that the Warcaster (great game) way of using point-less (not pointless) lists and instead integrating it into the summoning mechanic is pretty clever, and I have not seen that particular variant before (which does not mean it did not exist before WC). The dice system it uses is slight variant of the Monsterpocalypse system, which is over 15 years old by now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 12:57:36


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
"Evolved" is a funny word when it comes to activation systems. I have played games with alternative activation systems over twenty years ago.


Indeed but i wasn't referring to aa. I was thinking specifically of igoyougoo and very specifically along the line of Infinity.

(For the record, i tend to prefer phased igoyougo (like, say, lotr sbg) gamea or Infinitys dynamic igoyougo to aa)

Infinity is, after all, technically an igoyougo system, but its a very 'modern' take on it, and I find it very clever, dynamic and immersive. I think its fair to compare Infinitys system to older, more 'traditional' igoyougo' systems abs see an evolution in mechanics.Then again, I'm.probably a bit biased here as while I don't really play Infinity any more, I still rate it as probably the most technically brilliant wargame out there. (But these days, I prefer warcry, shadespire and newcromunda..go figure!)

Note as well,I'm.not saying one is better than the other. I've defended igoyougo on these boards before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 13:08:26


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in no
Umber Guard





Infinity's system is nothing new either - activation pool systems I have also seen decades ago in other games. It was, I understand, actually one of the early design models for WmH back in the late 2000s, with the focus mechanic providing activations with some models being able to hold more than others. The ARO mechanic is, if I recall correctly, based on RPG mechanics from when Infinity was imagined as an RPG.

I still argue it is mostly fashion. I abandoned Infinity myself, although many of the people I recruited stayed, as it was not giving me the casual skirmish firefight gaming experience I thought it was going to give me.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Dump facing for infantry and certain small beasties, keep it for all the big stuff. Especially warjacks and cavalry. Going from WHFB where everything had facing to AoS where nothing does, and I only feel like it's missing on the bigger stuff. The infantry feel like they should be able to turn in place readily. It still doesn't change their formation so getting flanked and such is still bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 13:49:57


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Dump facing for infantry and certain small beauties, keep it for all the big stuff. Especially warjacks and cavalry. Going from WHFB where everything had facing to AoS where nothing does, and I only feel like it's missing on the bigger stuff. The infantry feel like they should be able to turn in place readily. It still doesn't change their formation so getting flanked and such is still bad.


Agreed. With big models it makes sense and adds micro, but you won't have many big models anyway. With smaller infantry its often a level of micro that's more annoying than anything else. AT least with army scale games.

I think if you want facings and infantry it works best with movement blocks

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

I think the biggest sins of facing, and they are big, is the 1: lack of sculpted bases and 2: how the arc interacts.

1: Seriously, how do you NOT have sculpted bases, or at least a little plastic or metal arc to glue onto the damned base if you are going to care about facing? Maybe use hex bases since you include bases anyway? PPs sloppiness here aggravated me to no end, such that RiTides, Jin and I actually manufactured my own bases to correct this.
(Yes, you can buy tools to paint on arcs as well. But buying a third party tool does not bode well for PP, and trusting other people's painted arcs... well, I have seen some questionable ones. There's no need for that.)

2: I played Circle, and yea, 360 arcs were awful. The rule about getting free strikes when your opponent leaves your arc meant that enemies could tapdance all around an Argus and he couldn't do anything about it, but something without a 360 arc could punish the enemy before it got behind them. The obvious fix would be to give model A a free strike when the opponent B moved within A's arc but did not have A within B within it's arc. I.e. A gets a free strike when B is in A's arc but B turns its back on A.

In general, I like facing rules, but only if they are easy to adjudicate. Kings of War has sort of wonky LOS rules when charging (common to many unit scale systems) but it would be worse without them. I personally think that circle based games should switch to hexes, octagons or squares (or pentagons!) for ease of facing. Circles are very elegant and visually pleasing, so if designers want to stick with them, they should at least make them support facing more clearly. It isn't THAT hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Grey wrote:

Well, they tried the video game thing, and it didn't work. PP in general, as a company, is not in a place financially where they can successfully fund a good video game translation of the current WMH miniatures game.

Warmachine/Hordes worked perfectly fine for a very long time, until suddenly it didn't. I think there's certainly room in the wargaming hobby for a ruleset like PP's that emphasis good, fairly balanced rules and a competitive mindset. Through a combination of various factors, Privateer Press ended up either mismanaging or dropping a lot of balls and that's how we ended up here in this thread, discussing all of this.


Re: Video Game: Was that actually a turn based direct port? I didn't get into the KS, and then ignored the game on Steam while it languished on my wishlist. My sense was that it was very tarted up, fancy graphics etc. instead of just solidly implementing the rules. I have seen lots of people playing TTWGs online with programs basically consisting of circles and rectangles (what was the one you used to play on, Salvage?) so it seems like a version of that that looked pretty and took care of rules too should be fairly popular and cheap. Maybe not though.

PP definitely dropped their balls, then sat on them, with regards to the Press Ganger program and Mk3. It might have been different other places, but in Northern VA and MD where I played I saw interest and fandom just go off a goddamned cliff. And then they closed the forums, so I had nothing to read while I hid from my family on the pooper*. That pretty much spelled the end of world of PP for me.

*I am too old to get into Reddit, and I can actively feel FB sucking at my soul if I am on it too long, so those were non-starters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 16:04:03



Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

 Wehrkind wrote:
I have seen lots of people playing TTWGs online with programs basically consisting of circles and rectangles (what was the one you used to play on, Salvage?) so it seems like a version of that that looked pretty and took care of rules too should be fairly popular and cheap.
Online options for tabletop minigames were around before the pandemic, but the last year has seen people get into them in a more serious way. WMH is played on Vassal or War Table, Kings of War on Universal Battle, 40k / Kill Team / Infinity on Tabletop Simulator, etc. Personally, I can't stand TTS because it simulates the experience of playing a game with 3D models, dice and terrain, which is clunky and disappointing when you're a kinaesthetic player (i.e. I want to see my actual minis and roll actual dice). This also means it poorly simulates playing the actual game, as so much goes into the simulation of the physical game (but let's be real, Warhammer is barely about the game and more about scooting things into position and seeing how well you can coerce as many dice as possible towards peak performance). UB on the other hand does KOW well, but KOW is a happily abstract game so it translates well - if again, no minis, no real dice, and computer measuring leads most players to strive for a level of geometric perfection that is rare in the real world (i.e. games take fething forever, thanks in part to being able to undo/redo everything).

I have no experience playing WMH online, but both tools are very abstract and seem to support the game well. I've thought about giving it a shot some time, despite being a very mini-driven miniwargamer, especially as I like skew lists that cost $$$ to build and probably suck. But I'm often held back by being pretty out of touch with actually playing WMH at this point :/

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/21 16:35:24


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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

PP'#s forum kill off was really odd. Normally firms wait for forums to die on their own and for 3rd party or other social media sites to pick up and then gently close things down. Instead PP sort of tried to kick everyone out - which coupled to everything else at the same time I think just shattered the online community whilst the PG shutting down shattered the in person and the MK3 created an unsettled market.

Basically they made/were forced to make a series of bad choices all around the same time. Coupled to that GW had a big turn around at the same time. So everyone jumped ship

   
 
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