Raise the strength of autocannons to 8

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**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Well if the new LC is heavy 1 48" S9 AP3 D3+3, I don't think we can avoid the fact that AC is still pointless. HBs are for mulching infantry, and LCs are for blasting tanks. ACs are for what then, super heavy infantry and bikes? T6 stuff? I mean, ok, sure. But what if your next opponent is all T8 or hordes of T3? ACs are still kinda this in between that doesn't really shine...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might also add, that is just for ONE unit of a single faction, not really "Gamewide confirmed yet....

**bat702**

There might be some autocannons variants that are well balanced, but the basic autocannon is very lack luster to me atm, str8 would be good but ap-2 would be better

**panzerfront14**

bat702 wrote:
There might be some autocannons variants that are well balanced, but the basic autocannon is very lack luster to me atm, str8 would be good but ap-2 would be better

If autocannons gain a shot, like we see in this update, they'll be a decent upgrade from heavy bolters, in such a case they may just get upped in price. I'd rather they give Autocannons an additional AP to AP-2 so they have a roll in that same niche.

**bat702**

A huge problem when trying to put point costs together, honestly, is games-workshop trying to make everything in a factor of 5. some things should be 8 pts but are instead 10, other things are worth 7 pts but are instead 5 points, etc

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

If you make ACs S8 Heavy 3, d2 at 48" range, do you honestly believe that will have no negative affect on the game? I would further tip the scales towards imbalance. Chaos would have a field day running squads with ACs, backed up by Daredo and Leviathan Dreads, all punmping out even more death. I don't want to see Chaos Daredos become the new meta....

How many ACs can a full or min squad of Chaos MArines take?

Better question: How broken can Chaos get with ACs in their squads?

**Matt.Kingsley**

Ultimately it depends on how much Autocannons cost.
The best they could do is a Havoc Squad with 4x Autocannons.
4 more shots than a Forgefiend with 2x Hades Autocannons at + 12" range. Depending on the points, that might be fair and reasonable, or it might not be (in either direction).

That being said, I don't believe anyone actually suggested for Autocannons to be Heavy 3 S8.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Ultimately it depends on how much Autocannons cost.
The best they could do is a Havoc Squad with 4x Autocannons.
4 more shots than a Forgefiend with 2x Hades Autocannons at + 12" range. Depending on the points, that might be fair and reasonable, or it might not be (in either direction).

That being said, I don't believe anyone actually suggested for Autocannons to be Heavy 3 S8.

Look above at Panzer's post about giving them an extra shot. Before that someone suggested making them S8 AP2.

I mean I get this sub is for Proposed rules and all, but seriously. We have so much damned bloat why not cut some, and make one of the 5 or so Heavy Weapons in the game more akin to what is actually needed?

Right now we have Missile Launchers, ACs, LCs, HBs, Plasma Cannons, and Mortars. If we just stick with Imperial Heavy Weapons. Do we really need Plasma cannons when we have ACs? Or vice versa?

If we are strictly arguing from a Guard perspective, I can see ACs being the go to tool for mulching Primaris and stuff, But their BS makes that iffy. Also they can't take orders that do anything meaningful. Orders might fix this. If bring it down affected HWTs, that would go a long way to shoring up the gap....

**panzerfront14**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Ultimately it depends on how much Autocannons cost.
The best they could do is a Havoc Squad with 4x Autocannons.
4 more shots than a Forgefiend with 2x Hades Autocannons at + 12" range. Depending on the points, that might be fair and reasonable, or it might not be (in either direction).

That being said, I don't believe anyone actually suggested for Autocannons to be Heavy 3 S8.

Look above at Panzer's post about giving them an extra shot. Before that someone suggested making them S8 AP2.

I mean I get this sub is for Proposed rules and all, but seriously. We have so much damned bloat why not cut some, and make one of the 5 or so Heavy Weapons in the game more akin to what is actually needed?

Right now we have Missile Launchers, ACs, LCs, HBs, Plasma Cannons, and Mortars. If we just stick with Imperial Heavy Weapons. Do we really need Plasma cannons when we have ACs? Or vice versa?

If we are strictly arguing from a Guard perspective, I can see ACs being the go to tool for mulching Primaris and stuff, But their BS makes that iffy. Also they can't take orders that do anything meaningful. Orders might fix this. If bring it down affected HWTs, that would go a long way to shoring up the gap....

I like the wide spread of heavy weapons, but I think that they should have differing ideal targets. I think that heavy bolters should be the ideal against heavy infantry like Marines but it can be pointed at lighter targets thanks to its high fire rate, Have the Autocannon be the better hitting power variant with fewer shots but higher strength and AP-2 to emphasize it's role against light vehicles with the capability to be turned on heavy infantry. Have the plasma cannon be, well remarkably similar to its current usage as being a multirole weapon, if its a better weapon than price it higher. Have the Lascannon be your AT gun and the missile launcher basically be THE multirole weapon able to be used against tanks, flyers and infantry with varying effectiveness. Drop the Flak missile stratagem and give it an anti flyer profile in the base weapon stats.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

So basically have 5 Multi-role weapons...got it.

Just give the AC 3 damage and call it good. Keep it at 2 shots so it doesn't compete with HB, and keep it at 48 inches. Keep it S7 so it's not competing with the LC, ML, and Plasma cannons for anti-tank.

**panzerfront14**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So basically have 5 Multi-role weapons...got it.

Just give the AC 3 damage and call it good. Keep it at 2 shots so it doesn't compete with HB, and keep it at 48 inches. Keep it S7 so it's not competing with the LC, ML, and Plasma cannons for anti-tank.

I'd rather up the AP of the Autocannon over increasing its damage. One of the big issues IMO is that Autocannons are a very disparate category to get the handful of entries they do. The Autocannons on the Hydra are large enough to qualify for increased stats over the infantry counterpart.

What I honestly wishlist for is for Autocannons to be broken into 3 or so categories, each behaving akin to how a 20mm (light) 40mm (medium) 60-57mm (heavy) autocannons of today perform. Each has its uses and advantages and disadvantages over the others.

Tentative statlines being STR 7 AP-2 and D2 for light autocannons, Strength 8 AP-2 and D2 for medium autocannons and Strength 8 AP-2 D3 for heavy autocannons. adjust fire rate as needed for platform.

Have some of the more specialist variations be simply variations on one of the three major archetypes above. But clearly separate them and allow the Guns on a Hydra/Leman Russ Exterminator not be linked to the ones carried by Havoc, Lootas (tangentially as autocannon counterparts) and the various heavy weapons teams that carry them.

**alextroy**

Here's a crazy idea: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Autocannon profile that a nice 5 point reduction won't fix.

A 5 Point Autocannon looks like a viable alternative to a 10 point Heavy Bolter. It also starts to make a reasonable choice on some units for a cheap weapon that has a chance to do damage against moderate targets.

**Jarms48**

panzerfront14 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
There might be some autocannons variants that are well balanced, but the basic autocannon is very lack luster to me atm, str8 would be good but ap-2 would be better

If autocannons gain a shot, like we see in this update, they'll be a decent upgrade from heavy bolters, in such a case they may just get upped in price. I'd rather they give Autocannons an additional AP to AP-2 so they have a roll in that same niche.

If GW just make the autocannon heavy 3, then they've just made the heavy bolter redundant. If they make the autocannon 15 points compared to 10 of the heavy bolter, then the autocannon is still useless. 2 autocannons would be 6 shots at 30 points and 3 heavy bolters would be 9 shots at 30 points. It's no different than now.

I think it's only certain autocannons that are moving to heavy 3. Not all of them. So something like a leman russ exterminators autocannon might become heavy 3, being twin would make it heavy 6, then grinding advance would essentially make it heavy 12. That'd be welcome. A hydra autocannon should become flat damage 3 similar to the predator one.

alextroy wrote:
Here's a crazy idea: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Autocannon profile that a nice 5 point reduction won't fix.

A 5 Point Autocannon looks like a viable alternative to a 10 point Heavy Bolter. It also starts to make a reasonable choice on some units for a cheap weapon that has a chance to do damage against moderate targets.

I disagree with this for similar reasons as to above. This just swings the balance in favour of autocannons over heavy bolters. Armies like Guard could just spam autocannons. If 2 autocannons are 10 points that's 4 shots, compared to 3 of the heavy bolter.

As a blanket buff to all autocannons they should either move to S8 or AP-2 whichever is more appropriate.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'd be more inclined to go S8 to wound Marines on 2+

**A Town Called Malus**

I just hope that whatever "fix" also gets applied to other armies with autocannon equivalents.

Was infuriating enough when Imperial plasma became just as safe as Tau plasma whilst retaining its higher strength and gained an even more powerful profile on top. So if that happens with autocannons in comparison to missile pods I'll be extra salty.

**panzerfront14**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
I just hope that whatever "fix" also gets applied to other armies with autocannon equivalents.

Was infuriating enough when Imperial plasma became just as safe as Tau plasma whilst retaining its higher strength and gained an even more powerful profile on top. So if that happens with autocannons in comparison to missile pods I'll be extra salty.

Ideally yes, Imperial favoritism is very irritating, we would see thinks like Those Tau missile pods, Ork Deffguns, and whatever the Eldar and Dark Eldar use as their autocannon counterpart get these upgrades as well. Do Dark Eldar/Eldar have a counterpart?

**alextroy**

Jarms48 wrote:
panzerfront14 wrote:
alextroy wrote:
Here's a crazy idea: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Autocannon profile that a nice 5 point reduction won't fix.

A 5 Point Autocannon looks like a viable alternative to a 10 point Heavy Bolter. It also starts to make a reasonable choice on some units for a cheap weapon that has a chance to do damage against moderate targets.

I disagree with this for similar reasons as to above. This just swings the balance in favour of autocannons over heavy bolters. Armies like Guard could just spam autocannons. If 2 autocannons are 10 points that's 4 shots, compared to 3 of the heavy bolter.

As a blanket buff to all autocannons they should either move to S8 or AP-2 whichever is more appropriate.
I think your reasoning is off because you don't just pay for 2 Autocannons instead of 2 Heavy Bolters in very many instances. The only two units I can think of are CSM Havocs and AM Heavy Weapon Squads. Everywhere else, they either aren't choices at all or are a single weapon in a squad of troops. Plus you always have to pay for the bodies carrying the weapons.

They would have to adjust the cost on Heavy Weapons Squads because currently neither weapon has an upgrade cost, so let's move on.

A squad of Havocs with 4 Autocannons would be 105 points for 8 Autocannon shots versus Havocs with 4 Heavy Bolters for 125 points for 12 Heavy Bolter shots. Does the 20 points difference between the two squads look so bad given the full picture?

But if we use the humble AS Infantry squad we are looking at 60 points with Autocannon versus 65 with Heavy Bolter. Do two squads each and we have 120 points versus 130 points for two the heavy weapons and their squads. You pay 10 points to get the higher ROF from the Heavy bolters while giving up strength.

Besides, GW isn't going to make a normal Autocannon better than the existing Autocannon plus weapons like the new Cognos Autocannon. Easier to economize the price point to make a difference from the Heavy Bolter.