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I put "7th's core rules were better, but the bloat was worse".

Because the bloat really was gak in 7th. Like it's bad in 9th, but 7th was TRASH. HH is much better, anchored in a slightly altered set of core rules but without ANY of the bloat.

That said, I recognize that some people want a (war)GAME out of 40k, rather than a WAR(game), so they didn't like the rules. That's fair, but I prefer WARgaming in my wargames.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HH is much better, anchored in a slightly altered set of core rules but without ANY of the bloat.

There are (/have been) how many HH black/red books now..?

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HH is much better, anchored in a slightly altered set of core rules but without ANY of the bloat.

There are (/have been) how many HH black/red books now..?

Two for all the legions, one for mechanicum, one including militia, auxilia, and knights wrapped into one book. So four books total of the "gamer" redbooks.

Custodes are in a black book, along with the other Talons units (Sisters of Silence).
Daemons are in a black book.

So you have four red books and two black books, if you want to know all the armies in the game.

There's a smattering of datasheets in other black books too, which is a problem I agree. But they're only on Book 8, and the red books were released after Book 5, so you'd really only need Books 6, 7, and 8 for those units. Custodes
and Daemons are in that group, so you're really just looking at 3 black books instead of 2.

So for everything you'd need for the entirety of every faction in the game, you'd need 3 black books and 4 red books. OH, and the main rule book.

Karol wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

GW have been very upfront about telling us why they cut so much out of the core rulebook - simply to make the core rules shorter - 'accessibility, preciseness and mechanical robustness'.

And to make people buy multiple books instead of one or two per edition. Why sell a marine player one book, when you can make him buy 2 for the army rules and then additional ones for core rules, patch and FAQ/Errata etc It is good for business.

That has zero to do with the core rules reductions. The rules bloat happens independently of the core book. At least with the current rules, you can download the free core rules PDF and skip the BRB.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HH is much better, anchored in a slightly altered set of core rules but without ANY of the bloat.

There are (/have been) how many HH black/red books now..?

Two for all the legions, one for mechanicum, one including militia, auxilia, and knights wrapped into one book. So four books total of the "gamer" redbooks.

Custodes are in a black book, along with the other Talons units (Sisters of Silence).
Daemons are in a black book.

So you have four red books and two black books, if you want to know all the armies in the game.

There's a smattering of datasheets in other black books too, which is a problem I agree. But they're only on Book 8, and the red books were released after Book 5, so you'd really only need Books 6, 7, and 8 for those units. Custodes
and Daemons are in that group, so you're really just looking at 3 black books instead of 2.

So for everything you'd need for the entirety of every faction in the game, you'd need 3 black books and 4 red books. OH, and the main rule book.

I'd argue that books 1 to 5 need to be counted too, since they were required before being superseded.

Now, obviously that's better than 40K has been for many editions (and current Necromunda etc.); but for a game which is still in it's first edition, and with so few factions (Marines only count as one!), that's still a huge number of books!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
...I'd argue that books 1 to 5 need to be counted too, since they were required before being superseded.

Now, obviously that's better than 40K has been for many editions (and current Necromunda etc.); but for a game which is still in it's first edition, and with so few factions (Marines only count as one!), that's still a huge number of books!

It's in its second edition (it was originally published for the 6e core rules). As for claiming you should count books 1-5 because they were required at one point that is in no way true; if that's your measuring standard you have to at minimum double every Codex required for an edition of 40k because you needed the 8e book before the 9e book was released.

Mind also that depending on how you count that's eight books for either seven factions (SM, Mechanicum, Militia, Solar Auxilia, Questoris, Talons, Daemons) or 27 factions (18 Legions, Blackshields, Taghmata, Reductor, Cybernetica, Militia, Solar Auxilia, Questoris, Talons, Daemons), by comparison to 40k's ~40 books for ~30 factions (counting sub-factions as separate "factions" only if they have distinct datasheets not shared with the core list.)

(I'm not counting Knights-Errant, Inquisition, Assassins, etc. as 'factions' because that would be silly.)

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HH is much better, anchored in a slightly altered set of core rules but without ANY of the bloat.

There are (/have been) how many HH black/red books now..?

Two for all the legions, one for mechanicum, one including militia, auxilia, and knights wrapped into one book. So four books total of the "gamer" redbooks.

Custodes are in a black book, along with the other Talons units (Sisters of Silence).
Daemons are in a black book.

So you have four red books and two black books, if you want to know all the armies in the game.

There's a smattering of datasheets in other black books too, which is a problem I agree. But they're only on Book 8, and the red books were released after Book 5, so you'd really only need Books 6, 7, and 8 for those units. Custodes
and Daemons are in that group, so you're really just looking at 3 black books instead of 2.

So for everything you'd need for the entirety of every faction in the game, you'd need 3 black books and 4 red books. OH, and the main rule book.

I'd argue that books 1 to 5 need to be counted too, since they were required before being superseded.

Now, obviously that's better than 40K has been for many editions (and current Necromunda etc.); but for a game which is still in it's first edition, and with so few factions (Marines only count as one!), that's still a huge number of books!

If we are counting superseded books, should we could all prior superseded 40k codexes as well?

Plus, of course it is in its first edition. And counting marines as all one faction is a bit disingenuous. It is like treating Soviets and Germans as all one faction because their basic infantry and tanks are mostly the same.

Alpha Legion vs Space Wolves is not a mirror matchup.

 Galas wrote:
I believe one of the biggest reasons people seems 8th and 9th in a more positive light is that , at least now, you wait at best 1-3 years for your new codex or codex expansion, GW actually puts FAQ's that fix things, and they make regular balance patches.

Massive double edged sword. GW's 40k books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Even less so if they get replaced in two years (the cards and other extraneous bull gak only makes it worse).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I believe one of the biggest reasons people seems 8th and 9th in a more positive light is that , at least now, you wait at best 1-3 years for your new codex or codex expansion, GW actually puts FAQ's that fix things, and they make regular balance patches.

Massive double edged sword. GW's 40k books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Even less so if they get replaced in two years (the cards and other extraneous bull gak only makes it worse).

At this point I'd like them to shift to the books being lore books filled with past art and AoS style painting guides (heck throw in some narrative missions too for good measure) and just move all the datasheets online for free.

And then the points costs would cost you money.

(I mean, they already do, sure, but putting all the rules up for free minus the points is a dick move with AoS, and it'd be a dick move with 40k as well)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And then the points costs would cost you money.

(I mean, they already do, sure, but putting all the rules up for free minus the points is a dick move with AoS, and it'd be a dick move with 40k as well)

Yeah, making points free is needed too. The lower the bar to get into the game, the more people will play as well as pick up new armies.

I don't do polls, but I think GW would be lucky to keep 25% of their book sales if dexes were fluff, painting guides art and photos alone.

I MIGHT buy the sister and the GSC. Maybe.

Maybe Drukhari.

As is? For 9th I'm buying

SM
Deathwatch
Sisters
Admech
Drukhari
GK
CWE
Guard
Nids
GSC
Daemons
CSM

I MIGHT additionally buy

DA
BA
Ksons
DG

I'm just one dude. And you can see the difference- I've ALREADY bought two more books than I would have if rules were free. Don't get me wrong; I like the idea in a pure ideal world, but if they did it for 10th it would be a death spiral that ensured that if 11th edition ever happened at all, it might be the 5 faction game that some of the more balance focussed players seem to want.

Because once profit drops enough that people sell shares, investors won't bank on IP, so licensing starts to die too.

PenitentJake wrote:
I don't do polls, but I think GW would be lucky to keep 25% of their book sales if dexes were fluff, painting guides art and photos alone.

The point was that the books could be more Black Library products instead of being banked on being a key part of their profit margin. But who knows, maybe codex sales really are an important part of the sales strategy.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
7th had better core rules, and the bloat is worse in 9th.

Of course, 7th was the death rattle of an edition cycle, whereas 9th is relatively early on; which hardly bodes well...

Only reason 7th had decent core rules is they were 5th's with more crap bolted on.

And to be honest, almost every single thing they bolted on made it worse than 5th.

If someone argued 5th was a better edition than 9th? Sure, I can get behind that. If they wrote rules as well as they do today, almost all of 5ths problems would disappear?
But 7th? Feth no, worst edition with no competition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I believe one of the biggest reasons people seems 8th and 9th in a more positive light is that , at least now, you wait at best 1-3 years for your new codex or codex expansion, GW actually puts FAQ's that fix things, and they make regular balance patches.

Massive double edged sword. GW's 40k books aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Even less so if they get replaced in two years (the cards and other extraneous bull gak only makes it worse).

Are you implying that 7th edition's books were worth the paper they were printed on? Because I would respectfully have to disagree

Not at all. It's just less so now because of the life cycle of how quickly they are replaced.

I bought four sets of cards in 8th Ed, secure in the fact that Chaos and Marines had just got a Codex, they weren't going to re-do the Ultramarines, and Tyranids were a long way off.

The Marine ones aren't valid anymore, and it only took a few months for that to happen. Last time I buy their damned cards.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not at all. It's just less so now because of the life cycle of how quickly they are replaced.

I bought four sets of cards in 8th Ed, secure in the fact that Chaos and Marines had just got a Codex, they weren't going to re-do the Ultramarines, and Tyranids were a long way off.

The Marine ones aren't valid anymore, and it only took a few months for that to happen. Last time I buy their damned cards.

Yeah, I totally agree with that - I'm always using those cards to keep track of stratagems and powers and when they weren't updated with PA it annoyed me to no end.
And it would be so ridiculously easy to keep them up to date. Just throw small packs of updated cards in the white dwarf that go with the semi-annual big FAQs, or maybe just sell them from the store directly.

But I guess that would require effort.

Or just not turn the game into a card game.

Yes, that's an exaggeration, but the amount of extra widgets and doohickeys with 40k is worrisome. We're no where near FFG's token madness, but I'd rather we not start down that path.

I still have that box of all those tokens made from the same material as necron green rods you needed to keep track of unit status in 5th (falling back, pinned, smoke, wrecked, etc)

I imagine codexes are a pretty significant part of GW's sales.
It's basically an extra box that everyone playing that faction has to buy.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I imagine codexes are a pretty significant part of GW's sales.
It's basically an extra box that everyone playing that faction has to buy.

But if people didn't have to buy codices, do you think they'd spend less on 40k or just buy more models instead?

I don't know about you but I don't give myself a separate budget for 40k models and 40k books.

 vipoid wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I imagine codexes are a pretty significant part of GW's sales.
It's basically an extra box that everyone playing that faction has to buy.

But if people didn't have to buy codices, do you think they'd spend less on 40k or just buy more models instead?

I don't know about you but I don't give myself a separate budget for 40k models and 40k books.

This. Many people just pay for what they consider necessary, they don't spend a fixed amount of money every month regardless of what they actually feel they need.

If I wanted some specific models I'd get them anyway, just maybe not from day 1. If I could save money from a book I won't definitely invest the same amount of cash into something I don't need/want.

I'll admit that I buy one codex for each of my armies because I like to have them in my bookshelf. And for that, 8th ones were better than 9th ones because they had "bestiaries" and more fluff.

I have the 9th rulebook because I bought indomitus. Thats the only rulebook I have bought for this edition. I didn't bought any PA book.

I played my farsight enclaves list with PA rules for months without a problem.

Yeah yeah "yo oh yo oh! And a bottle of rum!" but I sleep without any kind of problem. I pay good money for my miniatures to GW or GW 3rd parties. And then for the books I feel are worth it. But GW is not gonna trap me in their paper release cycle designed to milk their customers.

I have never encountered a single person, tournament TO, player, judge, that told me anything for not having a physical copy of the rules in all this years. I made the mistake of buying a physical book to play my AoS khorne in a AoS tournament and then no one asked to see if I had it and I have never even used it once to reference any kind of rule.


When I'm on my PC, I'll ratter open the PDF files of one of my codex to look for a rule, or go to wahapedia, etc... than get off my chair and take the physical book from the bookshelf. Is just so much more convenient.

 Jidmah wrote:
I still have that box of all those tokens made from the same material as necron green rods you needed to keep track of unit status in 5th (falling back, pinned, smoke, wrecked, etc)

Those worked better than vehicle damage dice at least.

I’ve stopped playing 40K altogether.

I used to keep three armies - Chaos, Orks, Tyranids - up to date. Bought a pamphlet-format faction rules volume that lasted years, and a unit or two. Played games with people who were building armies from nothing, taught new and returning players how to play.

The churn rate of these A4 hardcover art books is so rapid that it’s simply not viable for me to bother trying to keep up with them any more. It’s like a subscription model, but with coffee table Banksy catalogues you’re expected to throw into your figure case. The sourcing of a transnational corporation’s product testing work to volunteers is making rules systems that feel massively distorted towards “competitive” play, with “balancing” mechanisms that make me feel punished for maining a Daemons & Mortals list because someone once won a tournament nobody remembers with a coalition of space marines and guardsmen.

I’ve started adapting my Word Bearers to 30K. I’ll play that until GW’s addiction to bloat creeps in to that and runs it into the ground.