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 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

This is pretty consistent for GW power creep. They come out with some bad books inbtween the super OP ones. Power creep is really just talking about the ceiling. You know...like the insanity of admech.

Nope.
Power creep is specifically about each codex being stronger and stronger. [I'm not sure what the 'bad' 9th edition books are, by the way, and I'm really curious which ones are in between the 'super OP ones']

And his point is, several 8th edition books are still at the top- more than half of the top 10. If the power creep is 'real,' then that wouldn't be happening at all.

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Just think of T5 orks as T4 with FnP. Statistically, they about equal out, and there's already enough ungodly dice rolling in this edition as is.

If anything, what upsets me most about this change is that it'll make T5 primaris inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


I'm personally hoping that anything bigger than a gribbly gets a two toughness bump at the very least for tyranids. Six toughness (and a movie) warriors!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 19:00:06


 
   
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Altima wrote:
Just think of T5 orks as T4 with FnP. Statistically, they about equal out, and there's already enough ungodly dice rolling in this edition as is.

If anything, what upsets me most about this change is that it'll make T5 primaris inevitable.

We already have T5 Primaris for every battlefield role.

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Voss 799075 11151117 wrote:
Nope.
Power creep is specifically about each codex being stronger and stronger. [I'm not sure what the 'bad' 9th edition books are, by the way, and I'm really curious which ones are in between the 'super OP ones']

And his point is, several 8th edition books are still at the top- more than half of the top 10. If the power creep is 'real,' then that wouldn't be happening at all.

Deathwatch. They weren't great pre new codex, and they stayed under 50% win rate after the new book.

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 catbarf wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


6+ FNP is a textbook bad mechanic- lots of rolling for little effect. Doubly so when it's army-wide and comes into play on every single roll.

GW's rightfully moving away from those in favor of more straightforward mechanics.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet: Orks going to T5 helps balance out their offense and defense. Basic Boyz being T4/W1/6+ but having potentially 4 attacks at WS3+/S4 made them very glass-hammer, which is extremely weird for Greenskins. The only two directions GW could go to address it would be to either reduce their offense and cost, making them essentially 'Guardsmen but green', or increase their durability to compensate.

They've long been portrayed in the fluff as extremely durable, violent, and dangerous. This is an improvement, and in line with the expansion of infantry statlines ever since Primaris bumped the basic Marine profile to W2.


I'm sorry Catbarf, but I have to disagree with you on one point. Ork boyz weren't/aren't Glass hammers. Glass hammer to me means they are fragile but can dish out a lot of dmg. Boyz...don't dish out dmg atm. they are more like a porcelain Hammer. Beautiful to look at, but they don't do much

Average boy is 3 attacks 2 hits, against T4 was 1 wound and against a Marine thats 0.33dmg, which means to average 1 dead Marine you needed 6 boyz in CC. That teamed with the new CC rules for this edition meant fewer boyz got into CC which means ork boyz weren't doing much dmg.

Karol wrote:

But at what cost. a 1W model with a +3sv, that is more often then not downgraded to something lower , isn't as tough as two and a half model model with t4, and t-shirt. specially vs non multi shot weapons. Losing 8pts of ork to a multi melta is laughable, losing 40pts of a termintor is not, and the termintor is not 5 times as resilient as the orks.


But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Voss wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

This is pretty consistent for GW power creep. They come out with some bad books inbtween the super OP ones. Power creep is really just talking about the ceiling. You know...like the insanity of admech.

Nope.
Power creep is specifically about each codex being stronger and stronger. [I'm not sure what the 'bad' 9th edition books are, by the way, and I'm really curious which ones are in between the 'super OP ones']

And his point is, several 8th edition books are still at the top- more than half of the top 10. If the power creep is 'real,' then that wouldn't be happening at all.

No - power creep is about power ceiling going up. There has never been an example of power going up consistently in each codex.

If you think about it. 9th eddition really started with the 8.5 marine codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 19:52:35


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SemperMortis wrote:
I'm sorry Catbarf, but I have to disagree with you on one point. Ork boyz weren't/aren't Glass hammers. Glass hammer to me means they are fragile but can dish out a lot of dmg. Boyz...don't dish out dmg atm. they are more like a porcelain Hammer. Beautiful to look at, but they don't do much

Average boy is 3 attacks 2 hits, against T4 was 1 wound and against a Marine thats 0.33dmg, which means to average 1 dead Marine you needed 6 boyz in CC. That teamed with the new CC rules for this edition meant fewer boyz got into CC which means ork boyz weren't doing much dmg.


That's fair. My experience has more typically been big mobs getting 4 attacks per model, and it's a decent amount of damage for their points, but the big problem as you note is that you never, ever get your full 100+ attacks from a big mob.

I like that Choppas are apparently going to AP-1 (assuming I read correctly that that's a thing and not just wishlisting), as it's a much more elegant way to represent them than the awkward rule back in the day where they reduced saves to 4+.

IMO it is perfectly fine for Orks to be individually tough, individually strong, and numerous. They're still not going to beat Marines one-on-one by any means but Guardsmen will be appropriately scared as they should be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 20:05:25


 
   
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I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.
   
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Cardiff

FNP wastes time with rolls with low chance of success. I find T5 more elegant.

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Karol wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Except they are not wounded easier, you said it yourself "full plate armour", you have 1 wound and a 3+ save over their 6+.

But at what cost. a 1W model with a +3sv, that is more often then not downgraded to something lower , isn't as tough as two and a half model model with t4, and t-shirt. specially vs non multi shot weapons. Losing 8pts of ork to a multi melta is laughable, losing 40pts of a termintor is not, and the termintor is not 5 times as resilient as the orks.

Well I wrote that wrong, I meant they have 1 wound and the improved save over the boys, as in 2 wounds to 1. Also I addressed Xeno's complaint which seemed to come from a "this feels wrong lorewise" basis, whereas in the game your standard marine is till way tougher than the individual Ork. T5 is great, but so are 2 wounds and a 3+ save. If you want to talk purely balance wise though, your average Terminator is far more durable against small arms fire than the Ork to the point there is little sense in shooting anti-infantry small arms at Terminators. No one is shooting multi-melta at Ork boyz either unless they are either losing or winning extremely hard already.
   
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your mind

I think that I like it. Keep humies at t3, marines and some characters t4, orks some t4 and some t5, ... why not? I like the idea overall.

   
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I think that complaining about T5 Orks instead of 2 W or FNP Orks is complaining about the process instead of the results. Against the highly common S4 we have the following results:
  • T4 6+: 2.4 Hits to kill an Ork at S4 AP0
  • T4 6+ 6+++: 2.86 Hits to kill an Ork at S4 AP0
  • T5 6+: 3.6 Hits to kill an Ork at S4 AP0
  • T4 3+: 6 Hits per Space Marine Wound


  • So T5 Orks are tougher than T4 6+++ Orks with less dice rolling. What's not to like? And we have gone from old school where marines were 250% as resilient as Orks to new school 333% as resilient. But Marines suffer much more from any AP (AP -1 means 3 Hits to kill and Ork vs 8 to kill a 2 Wound Marine, 267% more resilient).

    So I for one welcome our T5 Ork overbosses
       
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    Throw another one onto the pile of T5 for Orks is not as immersion breaking for me as W2/T5W3 for marines was.

    In my ideal world of design T4 is superhuman and means it (in other words, lethality goes DOWN). Various factions have different defensive profiles. Eldar/Tau are hard to hit, by maneuvering or penalties I don't know. Marines are heavily armored. Tyranids/Orks have high wounds and numbers. Necrons are tough and reanimate, but aren't heavily armored.

    As mentioned by other posters in other threads. Marine durability is undone by their own popularity, as long as marines have the same profile as other marines they will never feel elite. Ork T5 could help, if gravis armor wasn't a thing.
       
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    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.

    Even more boys means games are slower, especially for the opponent, so that is also a bad choice. It's basically not fun to put ton of units that you immediately scoop up in a bucket. Units that you spent hours painting. Basically not fun.

    Toughess bump is basically the least problematic change to Orks as it fixes their durability a little and can actually be fun without detracting from the opponent's fun.

    On a side note I just find it peculiar and amusing that T5 Orks is breaking the game experience for people.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 23:33:43


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    Karol wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:


    So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

    That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


    Last time I checked GK had tons of weapons and psykers that don't give a damn about T5. And melee is always an option if you get to fight first. You can handle orks just as well as DG can.

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     Eldarsif wrote:


    On a side note I just find it peculiar and amusing that T5 Orks is breaking the game experience for people.


    I mean, I can *kind of* get it. Orks have been T4 for 20+ years. In all that time, T4 has represented super human resilience--between space marines with their multiple redundant organs and overall specialness, Necrons with their living metal bodies, etc. T5 and higher was reserved for things like supernaturally infused creatures, living wraithbone constructs, monstrous creatures, and the like. The fact that orks and space marines aren't just overwhelming every game was that they were fighting other armies that were actually, y'know, armies of nightmarish creatures or hyper advanced aliens or well disciplined units--instead of half starved humans with stubbers and makeshift weapons.

    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.

    I wish GW had made this change with the new edition. It's such a significant change, and it's weird that half the edition they were T4 and the other half they're T5.
       
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     Eldarsif wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.


    I've also always found a 6+FNP to be really unsatisfying as well. You're going to fail it most of the time and rarely will you feel that "wow that extra save has made a massive difference" even if over the course of the game it has kept more orks alive than it statistically should.

    T5 kind of pushes that sensation onto the other side I guess, where the opponent will feel a bit meh when his 4s aren't wounding anymore with boltguns or his battlecannons aren't wounding on 2s anymore. But in theory he should still be taking out fair chunks of the ork units with any unit worth mentioning.

    So maybe this is a good fit as a way to make orks feel tougher without one side of the table feeling like either it's not doing anything or that the unit is too hard to kill?
       
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    Spoletta wrote:
    To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?
    They'll take away our armour saves to compensate for such a massive unheard of boost in power.

    And then they'll put the points up.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 03:02:30


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     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Spoletta wrote:
    To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?
    They'll take away our armour saves to compensate for such a massive unheard of boost in power.

    And then they'll put the points up.



    Remember the days when synapse gave eternal warrior (when a lascannon would either take 1 wound off or instantly kill a model outright) and could buy extra toughness and saves? Scary days those were if i'm honest.
       
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     Xenomancers wrote:

    Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.



    It's perfectly right instead.

    Armour and t-shirts are not counted in the "to wound" roll, and the superhuman is still a humie . In fact SM still save on 3+ while orks only on 6+ so having +1T doesn't make two boyz as tough as one marine, the marine is still harder to kill and should definitely cost more than twice the points of a boy. Especially if he has the primaris bolter with higher range and AP.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Jidmah wrote:


    Last time I checked GK had tons of weapons and psykers that don't give a damn about T5. And melee is always an option if you get to fight first. You can handle orks just as well as DG can.


    They also have access to S6 AP-1 ranged weapons even on transports, which is gold against lots of (powerful) armies, not just orks.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 07:13:18



     
       
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     Xenomancers wrote:
    It's a 20% reduction in damage taken including mortal wounds. It is incredibly good. The best thing about it is - it doesn't change what weapons are effective against the unit. Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.

    It is a play to sell heavy intercessors.


    Oh please give over mate, Marines have tons of tools and rules baked into units for durability, Orkz going to T5 is a fantastic way for them to feel more like what they should in the fluff. It is the ork players turn to feel the love like when Marines went to W2 across the board. Hell you have multiple T5 marines yourself in Gravis units which are tougher than equal pts worth of Ork boyz. Stop feeling like "oh nooo, Marines got shafted here!" when they've had the love, its time for other armies.

    The only armies I feel who can rightly feel annoyed at this is Tyranids and Custodes. And because of this example I believe GW will help expand them to be special in their own way. I

    Please be happy another army is getting love and some much needed boosts to a iconic unit like Marines have had aswell. a T5 ork still have 1 wound and armour is basically ignored vs anything short of a old bolt gun or las gun.

    Now MORE importantly - Will the Stompa get +1 T

    (Editted formatting, pre coffee is hard.)

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 07:33:51


     
       
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    No.

    It’ll get +2 toughness.

    I can’t prove that. I have no basis for that. But you heard it here first, folks!

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    cody.d. wrote:
     Eldarsif wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.


    I've also always found a 6+FNP to be really unsatisfying as well. You're going to fail it most of the time and rarely will you feel that "wow that extra save has made a massive difference" even if over the course of the game it has kept more orks alive than it statistically should.

    T5 kind of pushes that sensation onto the other side I guess, where the opponent will feel a bit meh when his 4s aren't wounding anymore with boltguns or his battlecannons aren't wounding on 2s anymore. But in theory he should still be taking out fair chunks of the ork units with any unit worth mentioning.

    So maybe this is a good fit as a way to make orks feel tougher without one side of the table feeling like either it's not doing anything or that the unit is too hard to kill?


    Remember that the guys with Str 4 bolters is also most likely going to have some AP which will not give the Orks any saves. With the Primaris bolters(and doctrines) orks actually got their own nerf in the beginning of 8th and I'd say that the T5 is some counterbalance to that.

    What will be interesting to see if is the Deathskull sub-faction remains in place. It felt like a desperate way to fix the new age of AP -1 that hampered orks.

    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    Stats are essentially never reflecting lore as they are just subjective numbers assigned by a game developer. That has been so since the beginning of game design. The question is more how they will feel on the battlefield and I do get the feeling T5 will actually feel more "loreful" than the old T4. Orks are a horde, but they can take some beating and that has so far never been reflected well enough on the table.

    So I find it more meaningful to ask how Orks feel in a few months time when people have some experience playing with and against orks.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 08:50:54


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     Eldarsif wrote:
    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    Stats are essentially never reflecting lore as they are just subjective numbers assigned by a game developer. That has been so since the beginning of game design. The question is more how they will feel on the battlefield and I do get the feeling T5 will actually feel more "loreful" than the old T4. Orks are a horde, but they can take some beating and that has so far never been reflected well enough on the table.

    So I find it more meaningful to ask how Orks feel in a few months time when people have some experience playing with and against orks.


    This guy gets it.

    Maybe we should update dakka's swear filter:
    "It breaks my immersion" = "I don't like it"
    "It's bad game design" = "I don't like it"
    "It's bad for balance" = "I don't like it"

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    Altima wrote:
    A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    ...Because GW has always had THREE stats, plus several special rules, to determine exactly how tough something is to bring down, and all of them pull mixed duty.

    In an ideal world, to encourage bringing weapon variety, it makes sense for GW to vary how they represent defenses between the armies. Marines have lower toughness, higher sv, and higher wounds to represent how hard they are to bring down. Necrons have lower wounds, lower toughness, and high sv, but they go down and get back up. Death Guard have higher than average toughness, average wounds and good save, and -1 damage, so you have to take them down with weight of shots. Eldar have low wounds and low toughness and make up for it with invulns, negative to hit mods and other 'tricks.'

    If you wanted me to design a good way for orks and nids to fit into that picture, i'd say orks should be high-T, low-W, low-Sv and nids should be low-T, High-W, low-sv.

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

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     Eldarsif wrote:
    cody.d. wrote:
     Eldarsif wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.


    I've also always found a 6+FNP to be really unsatisfying as well. You're going to fail it most of the time and rarely will you feel that "wow that extra save has made a massive difference" even if over the course of the game it has kept more orks alive than it statistically should.

    T5 kind of pushes that sensation onto the other side I guess, where the opponent will feel a bit meh when his 4s aren't wounding anymore with boltguns or his battlecannons aren't wounding on 2s anymore. But in theory he should still be taking out fair chunks of the ork units with any unit worth mentioning.

    So maybe this is a good fit as a way to make orks feel tougher without one side of the table feeling like either it's not doing anything or that the unit is too hard to kill?


    Remember that the guys with Str 4 bolters is also most likely going to have some AP which will not give the Orks any saves. With the Primaris bolters(and doctrines) orks actually got their own nerf in the beginning of 8th and I'd say that the T5 is some counterbalance to that.

    What will be interesting to see if is the Deathskull sub-faction remains in place. It felt like a desperate way to fix the new age of AP -1 that hampered orks.

    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    Stats are essentially never reflecting lore as they are just subjective numbers assigned by a game developer. That has been so since the beginning of game design. The question is more how they will feel on the battlefield and I do get the feeling T5 will actually feel more "loreful" than the old T4. Orks are a horde, but they can take some beating and that has so far never been reflected well enough on the table.

    So I find it more meaningful to ask how Orks feel in a few months time when people have some experience playing with and against orks.


    honestly i both loved and hated the deathskulls. with a 6+++ and a reroll to hit, to wound and damage per phase it is basically the necessary kulture outside of a greed tide list. i loved it in that is made playing orks better, our crappy shooting at least got one reroll to try and help fix things per unit. on the other hand I felt like rather than fix what was wrogn with orks for the past 3 editions in any meaningful way they just gave us a really powerful kulture while making all the others (outside goffs for melee) mediocre so you would almost always go deathskulls

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    SemperMortis 799075 11151142 wrote:
    But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

    Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

    A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.

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    Karol wrote:
    SemperMortis 799075 11151142 wrote:
    But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

    Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

    A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


    Do you not want to understand that GK will be updated as well? "Orks shouldn't get an update because some other armies haven't gotten one" is complete nonsense.

    Seriously, you should have understood that by now.

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    Orks were already better then most marines without the +1T, updating them to be even better makes as much sense as updating SoB, or something like eldar, instead of Tau or GSC, who actually do need a codex writen with 9th ed in mind. Same with knights.

    I also find the "will be updated" argument strange. Who says, my codex won't end up like the DW one. DW got updated and they are bad. Plus soon means many things for GW.It could as well be after summer, and with how vaccinations works here, we are going to have another lock down in autum, which for me, means I would get to play with the rules, maybe in spring next year. That is one and a half year of an edition. Plus as I said this isn't just a me problem. Sure GK and 1ksons were suppose to be updated. But there is nothing said about chaos space marines.

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    I see this more as orks being brought in line with marines, but in a different way.

    Orks are tough for sure, but they have no armor so when they do get wounded theres a good chance they'll die. This is just them getting around 2w, and a fnp. DE are "tougher" than cwe but not enough to reach T4, so they get a fnp. Seems reasonable, T5 orks seem reasonable.

    But I'll also say that reasonable increments could also be called creep. AlsoT5=less die rolling compared to a fnp and 2w so there's that
       
     
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