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Too many dice rolls in 40K?
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's even worse when you get horde units like Orks throwing around 4 attacks per grunt that you see just how mind bogglingly bad the problem has become.


During 5th Ed when we starting veering off from GW's rules we changed the ork profile. We dropped an an attack, gave them Strength 4 and let them re-roll 1's To Hit in combat. Overall, it made them slightly better but it dropped quite a bit of dice rolling, even with re-rolling 1's. I never understood why people are so enamored with extra die-rolling as a solution. When people were proposing a 6+ Feel No Pain at one point it boggled my mind why anyone would want such a tedious method to increase a unit's survivability.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Slipspace wrote:
That's pretty much missing the point of what's being discussed. Attack inflation is a thing in 40k and it's fairly stupid that any unit could potentially throw 80 attack dice for any reason. Even 30 or 40 is unnecessary IMO. There are more elegant mechanics that could be used to represent the same thing as we have now.


You should go look up the word "inflation". If a unit is making half or less attacks than it did in almost all previous editions, that's not an "inflation", that's the opposite.

The attack inflation is mostly happening for shooting models which get many more shots, extra rules and a pile of guns stapled to them.

Claiming that horde units have gotten more attacks is just flat out wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Definitely. A lot of attacks per model can work in a system where you have limitations on how many models can attack.

For instance in WHFB, Witch Elves each had 3 attacks (1 base, +1 for 2 weapons, +1 for Frenzy). But only the models actually in base contact with an enemy model are able to make those 3 attacks. The rest either cannot attack or can only make 1 attack, depending on their position relative to a model in base contact.

LOTR has a similar situation when it comes to models equipped with spears. They can attack by being in base contact with a friendly model in base contact with an enemy, but can only make 1 attack when they do so, regardless of how many attacks they otherwise would have.


9th edition pretty much does the same, the 1/2" within 1/2" rule is fairly restrictive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 15:46:49


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
That's pretty much missing the point of what's being discussed. Attack inflation is a thing in 40k and it's fairly stupid that any unit could potentially throw 80 attack dice for any reason. Even 30 or 40 is unnecessary IMO. There are more elegant mechanics that could be used to represent the same thing as we have now.


You should go look up the word "inflation". If a unit is making half or less attacks than it did in almost all previous editions, that's not an "inflation", that's the opposite.

The attack inflation is mostly happening for shooting models which get many more shots, extra rules and a pile of guns stapled to them.

Claiming that horde units have gotten more attacks is just flat out wrong.


That depends on the timescale in question. There are more horde units in the game than just Ork Boyz. Just because one unit hasn't seen that kind of inflation doesn't mean it isn't a thing. My comment above doesn't even specifically call out hordes as the main beneficiaries of this inflation. The comment you replied to mentioned 80 attack dice as an example of the stupid numbers in the game. The fact one unit has had that number potentially reduced (from an already ridiculous ceiling) doesn't alter the basic point that number of dice has massively increased over time...or inflated, if you prefer.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Sure, name one horde unit throwing more dice in combat now than it did 10 years ago. I genuinely don't know a single one, but I'm ready to be proven wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 09:33:22


Earth is not flat
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Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I can't think of one either, but that's because the main inflation was from 2nd to 3rd. Shooting dice have certainly massively increased. If you actually read my statement again it's a general comment about attack dice inflation, not specifically about hordes. My point about hordes was how inelegant a solution it is to continue with this 1-to-1 association with statline to attacks when base models can get 4 attacks each.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






You jumped on a comment that was calling out wrong information. If anything, you missed the point.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, name one horde unit throwing more dice in combat now than it did 10 years ago. I genuinely don't know a single one, but I'm ready to be proven wrong.


IG squads with Straken and a priest?

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 vipoid wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, name one horde unit throwing more dice in combat now than it did 10 years ago. I genuinely don't know a single one, but I'm ready to be proven wrong.


IG squads with Straken and a priest?


Not really a horde unit, and definitely less attacks than blobbed up platoons. So while they did get 10 extra attacks compared to before because of a character (from the priest being buffed), a unit that has the same max unit size as marines hardly counts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 12:34:37


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 vipoid wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, name one horde unit throwing more dice in combat now than it did 10 years ago. I genuinely don't know a single one, but I'm ready to be proven wrong.


IG squads with Straken and a priest?


By my count, in 7th and IG squad joined by Straken + Priest gets 31 attacks.
In 9th, an Infantry Squad with Straken + Priest buffs get 32 attacks.

So technically correct, but only barely so. If you equip them the same (Power sword instead of chainsword), they're even.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I suppose you have to spend a CP to make the infantry squad 20 models strong...

Or use conscripts.

Catachan Conscript - 30 strong, hit on 5's, Str 4, 1 attack, +1 from Stracken, +1 from priest.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






The_Real_Chris wrote:
I suppose you have to spend a CP to make the infantry squad 20 models strong...

Or use conscripts.

Catachan Conscript - 30 strong, hit on 5's, Str 4, 1 attack, +1 from Stracken, +1 from priest.


You are still very unlikely to have more than 10-12 models in engagement range.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Unlikeliness doesn't change it. That's like saying unit x is OP unless I blow it up
   
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 fraser1191 wrote:
Unlikeliness doesn't change it. That's like saying unit x is OP unless I blow it up
But it does change it.

Under the old Codex rules, with Dakka Dakka Dakka, four Shoota boys could kill a Land Raider in Overwatch.

Is that something we should care about?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 fraser1191 wrote:
Unlikeliness doesn't change it. That's like saying unit x is OP unless I blow it up


Units normally not being able to fight with all their models in real games due to rules specifically designed to do that and opponents actively trying to influence that changes everything when the topic of discussion is that models are rolling too many dice.

Of course, if you are a pure armchair general mathhammering units in a vacuum and assuming that everything is in range of everything, you don't know that.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Jidmah wrote:


You are still very unlikely to have more than 10-12 models in engagement range.


I had it explained to me last night the old base sizes are unfair because I can have 2 models in range to attack for every guy in contact, as the old bases are less than 1" in diameter, hence you can form three ranks...
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I liked this up and until I thought about the old Conscript blobs of 7th. 40 guns, with FRFSRF, that's a lot of 1 model, 1 wounds.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


You are still very unlikely to have more than 10-12 models in engagement range.


I had it explained to me last night the old base sizes are unfair because I can have 2 models in range to attack for every guy in contact, as the old bases are less than 1" in diameter, hence you can form three ranks...


Feel free to go back to that person and tell them that you can't form three ranks under 9th edition's rules. Models that are not within 1" need to be 1/2" within a model that is within 1/2" of the target itself.
If anything, my experience with mobs on larger bases is that it's easier to get more models within 1/2" of the first rank, as the "area" which can be occupied by the second rank is larger.

If in doubt, provide them with 10 bases of both sizes and let them demonstrate the issue to you. In most cases, they will fiddle with the bases for minutes to fit one additional model in a perfect geometrical construction that will never, ever happen in actual games. If they still doubt you force them to make a proper charge move and pile in, not just put down models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 16:32:20


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
 
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