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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


Indeed. Just like how no one would really contest that Ultramarines and Guilliman are Space Romans. I also don't buy the "But but they are representing a less popularly well known steppe group's leader". GW is not known for being that subtle or obscure in its references. Guilliman's adoptive father was Space Julius Caesar. It's pretty obvious the White Scars are meant to evoke to the average reader Space Mongols, not Space Kyrghyz. Yes we mean Space Mongols.

The issue is less White Scars being Space Mongols in a universe of Space Romans and Space Vikings, but more of they are Space Mongols being portrayed in art as white guys playing Mongols, like out of the 1950's. The modern term is "racebending" or whitewashing, where the ethnicity of a character is either changed in the story or is portrayed by someone not of that ethnicity (and often not even adjacent or remotely close). Often the issue when it has come to things like movies, it has been accompanied by convoluted or unconvincing arguments about why for example in a movie like Aloha, a character 1/4 Chinese 1/4 native Hawaiian is best portrayed by a lily white red haired actress of Swedish background mixed with German, English, Scottish, and Irish with not a trace of anything from Asia or Oceania. I.e. the criticized reasoning of "European stories are best portrayed by European background actors. Non-European stories are still best portrayed by European background actors."




I'm not seeing what you claim

Not going to lie he looks like my uncle Kaan, features are rounded as you would expect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 03:04:47


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




You've just proven the whole racebending point. Space Mongols...being led by white guy with topknot, not Space Temujin, while the Space Romans get to be led by Space Augustus.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:
You've just proven the whole racebending point. Space Mongols...being led by white guy with topknot, not Space Temujin, while the Space Romans get to be led by Space Augustus.



There's no racebending. Steppe warriors have mixed characteristics including mongols.
There's some very pale mongolians and turkic people.

The preconception of what skin tone is appropriate for mongols you have set in your mind is laughable idea.
The notion you have is backwards to reality




Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way I wouldn't call the blanche depiction being "white skinned". Not that I give a toss about the skin colour

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 04:02:06


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yet again more proof of the racebending "logic". An Asian themed story is somehow fine to be led by a white looking guy (and by white I don't mean Central Asian even)...and demanding people should stop being so sensitive about having an Asian guy feature. Yet when it comes to white European stories, I'm sure the logic will be oh no we can't cast a non-white non-European person because then it wouldn't be thematically matching or accurate. I'm sure there wouldn't be objection to Idris Elba lookalike as Guilliman then? Such hypocrisy and double standards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 04:09:01


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

You must really struggle with Lizardmen.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




No because the Aztecs are an extinct culture just like the Huns. Though there may be Nahuatl speakers they are not culturally Aztec.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:
Yet again more proof of the racebending "logic". An Asian themed story is somehow fine to be led by a white looking guy (and by white I don't mean Central Asian even)...and demanding people should stop being so sensitive about having an Asian guy feature. Yet when it comes to white European stories, I'm sure the logic will be oh no we can't cast a non-white non-European person because then it wouldn't be thematically matching or accurate. I'm sure there wouldn't be objection to Idris Elba lookalike as Guilliman then? Such hypocrisy and double standards.



The blanche artwork has very rounded facial features as you would expect to see from central asian populations, the skin tone is not pale and the top knot you're crying about...



You're seeing a problem that isn't there

The hair was commonly mostly shaved save for various styles according to tribes, especially for horseback steppe warriors.

Also we're not talking about acting, actors or film making - just irrelevant


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iracundus wrote:
No because the Aztecs are an extinct culture just like the Huns. Though there may be Nahuatl speakers they are not culturally Aztec.


Yeah but in the same hand you brought up and complained about thousand sons being ancient egpytian ...a dead culture.

I cannot keep up with all these silly rules which do not apply in a consistent manner.

When was the last time steppe warriors rode into battle? The steppe warriors are also a dead culture.

At the very least, even if I am dead wrong I have a consistent, cohesive and logical position.

These influences and borrowings from cultures both existing and dead is not racebending. They are inspired homage and nods.

You're just slapping a buzzword onto stuff which has no relation. Is there a scoring system for you to find things to get offended about or something?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 05:02:38


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Yet again more proof of the racebending "logic". An Asian themed story is somehow fine to be led by a white looking guy (and by white I don't mean Central Asian even)...and demanding people should stop being so sensitive about having an Asian guy feature. Yet when it comes to white European stories, I'm sure the logic will be oh no we can't cast a non-white non-European person because then it wouldn't be thematically matching or accurate. I'm sure there wouldn't be objection to Idris Elba lookalike as Guilliman then? Such hypocrisy and double standards.



The blanche artwork has very rounded facial features as you would expect to see from central asian populations, the skin tone is not pale and the top knot you're crying about...




It's not about the topknot. That boy looks Central Asian. If Jaghatai looks like an adult version of that, then no issues. However that is not what Jaghatai Khan is shown as in that FW sketch, which is anything but Asian or Central Asian. That sketch looks Western European.

The things about racebending in film are relevant as a portrayal of different cultures or ethnicities in media and art.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iracundus wrote:
No because the Aztecs are an extinct culture just like the Huns. Though there may be Nahuatl speakers they are not culturally Aztec.


Yeah but in the same hand you brought up and complained about thousand sons being ancient egpytian ...a dead culture.

I cannot keep up with all these silly rules which do not apply in a consistent manner.

When was the last time steppe warriors rode into battle? The steppe warriors are also a dead culture.


I never once complained about ancient Egyptians. Reread the thread more carefully and attribute posts to their correct posters. It was another poster who was basically saying for you to stop trying to kid yourself. White Scars are thematic Space Mongols just as Thousand Sons are thematically Space Ancient Egyptians, a niche that the Necrons also have.

Mongolian steppe culture is not dead. The fact you think so shows your cultural ignorance. The most cursory online search will easily show many images of people living mostly traditional lifestyles. Just because they may have some modern technology alongside their traditional items or horses does not mean their culture is dead. Likewise, just because they are not literally going to shoot people with arrows or hack them with sabers doesn't mean their traditional culture is dead. Temujin is a very core and sensitive point of pride for Mongolians. They clearly view themselves as having a link so Mongolian culture is a living culture, not a dead one. This is not about dead cultures like the Aztecs, Huns, or ancient Egyptians. Once again I do not count linguistic remnants alone like Nahuatl speakers as the original culture living on.

My position is consistent. You need to read more carefully.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 05:08:28


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:


I never once complained about ancient Egyptians. Reread the thread more carefully and attribute posts to their correct posters. It was another poster who was basically saying for you to stop trying to kid yourself. White Scars are thematic Space Mongols just as Thousand Sons are thematically Space Ancient Egyptians, a niche that the Necrons also have.

Mongolian steppe culture is not dead. The fact you think so shows your cultural ignorance. The most cursory online search will easily show many images of people living mostly traditional lifestyles. Just because they may have some modern technology alongside their traditional items or horses does not mean their culture is dead. Likewise, just because they are not literally going to shoot people with arrows or hack them with sabers doesn't mean their traditional culture is dead. Temujin is a very core and sensitive point of pride for Mongolians. They clearly view themselves as having a link so Mongolian culture is a living culture, not a dead one. This is not about dead cultures like the Aztecs, Huns, or ancient Egyptians. Once again I do not count linguistic remnants alone like Nahuatl speakers as the original culture living on.

My position is consistent. You need to read more carefully.



Reading more carefully, I SPECIFICALLY said Steppe warrior[ culture is dead, not steppe culture. Try again.
White scars are based on steppe warriors
.
You can't see the rounded features in the artwork but I can. You may or may not be ignorant to the fact that porcelain skin mongols IS A THING. But stick to the script of false outrage...

So what if the primarch looks a bit more Turkic than western idealised Mongol....

At the end of the day, you're way way off mark and dumbing it down to suit your silly agenda

You're literally getting pissed that he doesn't look like the western stereotype concept of a mongol

Your stereotype of a mongolian steppe warrior. The one that's in YOUR HEAD

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 05:24:05


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Iracandus here is an Altai throat singer.



This is where Altai is



not sure what your trying to claim though mate, white skinned people can come from all over the world, I have pale white skin and my father is 5th gen Singaporian and mother is mixed welsh Chinese, so I look European but am not, I come across as English as I lived here so long but I am not English, perhaps we should not judge people and make assumptions based on skin tone
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you
Spoiler:
BDSM


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.


It was quite the trope here and in some gaming, it doesn’t mean that all are nuns ether just following certain designs. And just since women do, does not mean the design was for.
The sisters as a whole fit a lot of tropes, it’s why I responded.
I quite like sisters, but there has not been models for women other than a few examples elsewhere in the setting.
40k is probably the worst offender now, and this is a issue with tone as you say. There are painfully few in the setting where they should be. And in places where they are treated badly, Oh boy did GW get creative at times.
But modern GW does seem to agree with me, if the setting wants to treat everyone badly. They need to treat the female characters well first.
Or it just ends up edgy.

Also, I do like that repentia art. And like the new models for representation off it. But ohh boy
When we get some more models that represent us on the table, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.
This comes with more characters that are named where they should be, armor suits. Mechs, tank comanders. That adds a lot, even if they end up eaten by tyranids on the table.


The "fetishism" you're annoyed about was actually popularised by the subvertive punk feminism of Siouxsie Sioux. It's been reclaimed, who cares

These guys would make a pretty sick harlie troupe...fit right into grim dark somehow?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


But what's the actual problem with that?
It's a influenced recycle of elements, to me these things are homages and nod to the steppe warriors. It's cool asf

It's no more offensive than space romans...

and when you say "mongols" you actually mean steppe warriors b/c mongols weren't the only steppe warriors.


Sisters of battle are not a good representation as they follow a lot of tropes that have a lot of negative ideas on them, they are not a great representation.
Being reclaimed or anything of the sort comes with the ability not to engage in those things, not for the ideas to be pushed now as the representation when other parts of the setting neglect it.
It’s a pop culture setting. Where the culture changed and GW was very slow to notice and adapt.

Hell, sisters are great. They way better now than space marines for tone and thought, but as the point of here is your representation they fall way off.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you
Spoiler:
BDSM


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.


It was quite the trope here and in some gaming, it doesn’t mean that all are nuns ether just following certain designs. And just since women do, does not mean the design was for.
The sisters as a whole fit a lot of tropes, it’s why I responded.
I quite like sisters, but there has not been models for women other than a few examples elsewhere in the setting.
40k is probably the worst offender now, and this is a issue with tone as you say. There are painfully few in the setting where they should be. And in places where they are treated badly, Oh boy did GW get creative at times.
But modern GW does seem to agree with me, if the setting wants to treat everyone badly. They need to treat the female characters well first.
Or it just ends up edgy.

Also, I do like that repentia art. And like the new models for representation off it. But ohh boy
When we get some more models that represent us on the table, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.
This comes with more characters that are named where they should be, armor suits. Mechs, tank comanders. That adds a lot, even if they end up eaten by tyranids on the table.


The "fetishism" you're annoyed about was actually popularised by the subvertive punk feminism of Siouxsie Sioux. It's been reclaimed, who cares

These guys would make a pretty sick harlie troupe...fit right into grim dark somehow?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


But what's the actual problem with that?
It's a influenced recycle of elements, to me these things are homages and nod to the steppe warriors. It's cool asf

It's no more offensive than space romans...

and when you say "mongols" you actually mean steppe warriors b/c mongols weren't the only steppe warriors.


Sisters of battle are not a good representation as they follow a lot of tropes that have a lot of negative ideas on them, they are not a great representation.
Being reclaimed or anything of the sort comes with the ability not to engage in those things, not for the ideas to be pushed now as the representation when other parts of the setting neglect it.
It’s a pop culture setting. Where the culture changed and GW was very slow to notice and adapt.

Hell, sisters are great. They way better now than space marines for tone and thought, but as the point of here is your representation they fall way off.


40k isn't about positive representation. If you think it is, you miss the point. It's a hellish dystopian nightmare future.

You haven't explained ANYTHING except that you want to gatekeep tight fitting clothes and heels...okay..lol...just lol

I'm glad someone has stepped upto the plate to patronise females and decide for them!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 06:27:40


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you
Spoiler:
BDSM


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.


It was quite the trope here and in some gaming, it doesn’t mean that all are nuns ether just following certain designs. And just since women do, does not mean the design was for.
The sisters as a whole fit a lot of tropes, it’s why I responded.
I quite like sisters, but there has not been models for women other than a few examples elsewhere in the setting.
40k is probably the worst offender now, and this is a issue with tone as you say. There are painfully few in the setting where they should be. And in places where they are treated badly, Oh boy did GW get creative at times.
But modern GW does seem to agree with me, if the setting wants to treat everyone badly. They need to treat the female characters well first.
Or it just ends up edgy.

Also, I do like that repentia art. And like the new models for representation off it. But ohh boy
When we get some more models that represent us on the table, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.
This comes with more characters that are named where they should be, armor suits. Mechs, tank comanders. That adds a lot, even if they end up eaten by tyranids on the table.


The "fetishism" you're annoyed about was actually popularised by the subvertive punk feminism of Siouxsie Sioux. It's been reclaimed, who cares

These guys would make a pretty sick harlie troupe...fit right into grim dark somehow?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


But what's the actual problem with that?
It's a influenced recycle of elements, to me these things are homages and nod to the steppe warriors. It's cool asf

It's no more offensive than space romans...

and when you say "mongols" you actually mean steppe warriors b/c mongols weren't the only steppe warriors.


Sisters of battle are not a good representation as they follow a lot of tropes that have a lot of negative ideas on them, they are not a great representation.
Being reclaimed or anything of the sort comes with the ability not to engage in those things, not for the ideas to be pushed now as the representation when other parts of the setting neglect it.
It’s a pop culture setting. Where the culture changed and GW was very slow to notice and adapt.

Hell, sisters are great. They way better now than space marines for tone and thought, but as the point of here is your representation they fall way off.


40k isn't about positive representation. If you think it is, you miss the point. It's a hellish dystopian nightmare future.

You haven't explained ANYTHING except that you want to gatekeep tight fitting clothes and heels...okay..lol...just lol

I'm glad someone has stepped upto the plate to patronise females and decide for them!


No I want alternatives, you are the one that is pushing it as a good representation with no understanding of why that may or may not be the case. And please, 40k has not really been that in years. They say it is, but it’s rather shallow.
It’s why the tone has shifted so much, GW doesn’t really want to try and deal with the social issues that setting really would require. As it’s really hard to get right.
Also Turns out, I am female. I lived though this in the hobby for 20 years. But good thing you are here to tell me I cannot represent myself in this.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Spoiler:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The models are better than the art was back then, but the nun fetish killer is already a trope. The heals on some art, tight corset. And form fit armor.


Sorry but no, I lived through the times when sisters were released and there was no mainstream "nun fetish" just as there is none now, black leather and other such things sure but not nuns, also do not forget that Marines and Guard also had similar depictions but are not considered fetishised, this appears to me to be a projection of the persons own desires onto the artistic style rather than the intent of the creators but I could be wrong I grant you.


It wasn’t a design for women and girls, it was for men.


Have you ever visited Tumblr or deviant art, woman create some pretty spicy things much ... spicier that battle sisters so you do cannot say on the one hand its fetishised for just men when woman do the exact same things of their own free will.

And repentia both concept and design, did not fall out of that as well.


This one is a clear fetishisation I grant you [spoiler]BDSM


They could be a interesting part of representation if, 40k had treat women in setting better.


they already are represented in the setting perfectly in my entirely subjective opinion, no one should be treated better in 40k, if anything everyone should be dropped down a notch (again subjective)

New sisters are cleaning that up even more.


the new warsuits are garbo but the new sword and board ones are amazingly epic and that is the direction I would like to see sisters go down, also needs more weird added back into the force.


It was quite the trope here and in some gaming, it doesn’t mean that all are nuns ether just following certain designs. And just since women do, does not mean the design was for.
The sisters as a whole fit a lot of tropes, it’s why I responded.
I quite like sisters, but there has not been models for women other than a few examples elsewhere in the setting.
40k is probably the worst offender now, and this is a issue with tone as you say. There are painfully few in the setting where they should be. And in places where they are treated badly, Oh boy did GW get creative at times.
But modern GW does seem to agree with me, if the setting wants to treat everyone badly. They need to treat the female characters well first.
Or it just ends up edgy.

Also, I do like that repentia art. And like the new models for representation off it. But ohh boy
When we get some more models that represent us on the table, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.
This comes with more characters that are named where they should be, armor suits. Mechs, tank comanders. That adds a lot, even if they end up eaten by tyranids on the table.


The "fetishism" you're annoyed about was actually popularised by the subvertive punk feminism of Siouxsie Sioux. It's been reclaimed, who cares

These guys would make a pretty sick harlie troupe...fit right into grim dark somehow?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
That's from Forge World, not fan art. It's a white guy playing Mongol.
That's neither a white guy, nor is it a Mongol. It's an unnaturally created genetic creature that scarcely counts as 'human', let alone a 'white guy'. And 38,000 years into the future, I'd say there are probably no Mongols left, much like there would be no English, Americans, French, Brazilians, Vietnamese, and so on.


Yeah but... the white scars are like, totally mongols. Just like the Thousand Sons are totally egiptian and egiptian looking. Lets not be obtuse and put fluff over common sense and how something is designed.


But what's the actual problem with that?
It's a influenced recycle of elements, to me these things are homages and nod to the steppe warriors. It's cool asf

It's no more offensive than space romans...

and when you say "mongols" you actually mean steppe warriors b/c mongols weren't the only steppe warriors.


Sisters of battle are not a good representation as they follow a lot of tropes that have a lot of negative ideas on them, they are not a great representation.
Being reclaimed or anything of the sort comes with the ability not to engage in those things, not for the ideas to be pushed now as the representation when other parts of the setting neglect it.
It’s a pop culture setting. Where the culture changed and GW was very slow to notice and adapt.

Hell, sisters are great. They way better now than space marines for tone and thought, but as the point of here is your representation they fall way off.


40k isn't about positive representation. If you think it is, you miss the point. It's a hellish dystopian nightmare future.

You haven't explained ANYTHING except that you want to gatekeep tight fitting clothes and heels...okay..lol...just lol

I'm glad someone has stepped upto the plate to patronise females and decide for them!


No I want alternatives, you are the one that is pushing it as a good representation with no understanding of why that may or may not be the case. And please, 40k has not really been that in years. They say it is, but it’s rather shallow.
It’s why the tone has shifted so much, GW doesn’t really want to try and deal with the social issues that setting really would require. As it’s really hard to get right.
Also Turns out, I am female. I lived though this in the hobby for 20 years. But good thing you are here to tell me I cannot represent myself in this.


That's the thing, it's its own universe, not a socio-political projection pinboard. It never has been that and never will be. Stop trying to make it a thing.
That whole concept of representing everyone and pleasing everyone is arrogant and toxic delusion.

The factions in the game represents THEMSELVES not YOU OR I.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apple fox wrote:
But good thing you are here to tell me I cannot represent myself in this.
[/spoiler]

Literally no one is saying that.

What I am saying is that this whole cult of demanding to crush an author's agency is just toxic, cancerous nonsense.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 06:58:05


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Gert wrote:
Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.


It's like I'm flying over a bunch of ziggurats...


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.


I actually have struggle to get it to work on dakka. Not sure if I doing it wrong or that the iPad format makes it hard or what :(

As for above, where you not lamenting the loss of satire within the setting? Satire is almost entirely in response to social politics. One of the big issues with the imperium is that so many don’t understand the satire.
The same way marines are the Cool power fantasy faction and nearly every negative is downplayed and given exceptions.
Space wolves have almost become the Space Marines But Faction.


“I'm glad someone has stepped upto the plate to patronise females and decide for them! “
Literally condescending and trying to remove my ability to respond as equal and speaking for others.

People are asking for GW to do things better, GW is trying. There is no cult, and criticism of a setting or written work cannot be brushed away like that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:03:25


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






@GoldenHorde Yeah that's not even close to true. "Your Dudes" and making a version of yourself in your army had been a pretty big thing for 40k since like always. The current options for a woman/female hobbyist to give themselves a character that represents them without having to explain background is to play Drukhari, SoB, GSC and possibly Craftworlds. SoB are absolutely superior to their previous iteration and have definitely seen a boost in status to "competent faction" rather than "murder bait" but that's only in the last year or so and the models still very much fall into a prickly issue regarding sculpted corsets and breasts. So if a female/woman hobbyist doesn't like Space Elves, SoB or GSC, there isn't a whole lot of ways they can put themselves into their army for 40k from GW sources.
People enjoy things more when they can represent themselves properly in said things. The part about it being arrogant or toxic is un-needed and rude.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut






That Altai person shows Central Asian/Eurasian features. I don't see what your point is. That's again not what FW's Jaghatai Khan sketch looks like. I am aware of the appearance of the people n the various "Stan" countries, and yes you can find pale skinned Mongolians. However even then their facial features are clearly Asian or Eurasian, with epicanthic folds. That FW sketch does not look Central Asian/Eurasian. He does not look Altaic.

The point is White Scars are Space Mongols thematically. Show it to a random player and they are not likely to think Space Kazakhs or <insert other Central Asian culture>. They are going to think Space Mongols. That's just how it is right now as the Mongols have had higher historical visibility thanks to the actions of Temujin in conquering the largest land empire on Earth. So all attempts to try to claim the White Scars are not Space Mongols are really just denial or deliberately being obtuse.

Once again the issue is if the Space Romans have Space Augustus, why not give the Space Mongols their Space Temujin? If one culture has a stereotypical leader why not the other? And if not Space Temujin, why is it fine for the Space Romans to have their Space Augustus? Temujin is one of the most defining historical figures of Mongolian culture, so why not let them have it if it's supposed to be a homage? Why this sudden insistence on "Oh we don't have to follow the stereotypes or history" which also just happens to coincidentally remove possibility of portrayal of a defining person from that cultural history in a way that actually looks like people from that culture? Look at portraits of Temujin and they look "stereotypical" Mongolian. Nothing wrong with that just as portraits of Chinese emperors show them to be stereotypically Chinese in appearance. If the White Scars are meant to be a homage then might as well complete it by giving them Space Temujin. If you can give people Space Viking+++ with Russ and Goth Poe quoting Primarch, then Space Temujin is no worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:09:38


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.


I actually have struggle to get it to work on dakka. Not sure if I doing it wrong or that the iPad format makes it hard or what :(

As for above, where you not lamenting the loss of satire within the setting? Satire is almost entirely in response to social politics. One of the big issues with the imperium is that so many don’t understand the satire.
The same way marines are the Cool power fantasy faction and nearly every negative is downplayed and given exceptions.
Space wolves have almost become the Space Marines But Faction.


“I'm glad someone has stepped upto the plate to patronise females and decide for them! “
Literally condescending and trying to remove my ability to respond as equal and speaking for others.

People are asking for GW to do things better, GW is trying. There is no cult, and criticism of a setting or written work cannot be brushed away like that.



You decided that corsets and tight fitting armour etc was "treating women poorly","for the benefit of men" or some such nonsense.That's patronising to the core.

What you are saying is you want imposed artistic censorship and don't believe the authors can stand behind their own agency.

I have taboos and all artists must cater , TO MEEEE!!!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:10:51


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Apple fox wrote:

I actually have struggle to get it to work on dakka. Not sure if I doing it wrong or that the iPad format makes it hard or what :(

Superior Samsung engineering all the way
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





the primarchs are being created in test tubes on Terra using the DNA of two people. assuming Jaghati Khan MUST look asian because he landed on an asian world is honestly insanely racist. Why? because it conflates culture with race.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




When you take one of the defining tales of a cultural group, one of their greatest figures, essentially do a retell or expy of them and then whitewash their leader, sorry but that is racist. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey

As I posted though before, I think GW did not do so out of deliberate malice, and their portrayal of an Asian Custodes, even if an example of tokenism, suggests there was no specific ideological racism or malice. But that is why it would be low hanging fruit for a tale of Space Mongols to actually feature a leader figure that looks like the historical person they were copying. It would even be easier than the earlier other thread discussion of female SM. GW wouldn't even need to retcon or insert new changes to anything other than the art portrayals. The existing text could remain as is.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:22:52


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.


I actually have struggle to get it to work on dakka. Not sure if I doing it wrong or that the iPad format makes it hard or what :(

As for above, where you not lamenting the loss of satire within the setting? Satire is almost entirely in response to social politics. One of the big issues with the imperium is that so many don’t understand the satire.
The same way marines are the Cool power fantasy faction and nearly every negative is downplayed and given exceptions.
Space wolves have almost become the Space Marines But Faction.


“I'm glad someone has stepped upto the plate to patronise females and decide for them! “
Literally condescending and trying to remove my ability to respond as equal and speaking for others.

People are asking for GW to do things better, GW is trying. There is no cult, and criticism of a setting or written work cannot be brushed away like that.



You decided that corsets and tight fitting armour etc was "treating women poorly","for the benefit of men" or some such nonsense.That's patronising to the core.

What you are saying is you want imposed artistic censorship and don't believe the authors can stand behind their own agency.

I have taboos and all artists must cater , TO MEEEE!!!!


You like it or not, that clothing has been accociated to certen themes. Not everyone likes it, I have SoB. But, since you ignore this, They are not a great point of representation.
Space marines get to be cool, and they are bared from women. Since you seem to dislike that, but you call more and a desire for alternatives for my fantasy censorship.
This is classic, it’s all fantasy until the point women want something. Then the setting and it’s grimdark nature are important.
Because I want more, and that doesn’t fit into your ideas I guess. There is no censorship here.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Spoiler:
 GoldenHorde wrote:


You decided that corsets and tight fitting armour etc was "treating women poorly","for the benefit of men" or some such nonsense.That's patronising to the core.

What you are saying is you want imposed artistic censorship and don't believe the authors can stand behind their own agency.

I have taboos and all artists must cater , TO MEEEE!!!!

Corsets have been used for at least 500 years to specifically shape a woman's body to decrease waist size and increase breast/bottom size. There are of course corsets that were designed to reduce back pain or ones that were basically just a sort of midriff shirt but the majority were absolutely to encourage beauty standards.
It's not really patronising to suggest that the "women only" that has sculpted breast armour and form fitting armour is sexualised when there are little to no options for more androgynous designs even in factions that are supposed to have women in them like Astra Militarum.
Its not censorship to suggest that there should be more androgynous or less sexualised options for the representation of female/women in 40k. Its not a taboo when roughly 50% of the human race is female/women.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:
When you take one of the defining tales of a cultural group, one of their greatest figures, essentially do a retell or expy of them and then whitewash their leader, sorry but that is racist. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey


"Mighty Whitey" isn't racist ? lol OK

When your toxic lens itself is racist and you are unaware of the fact


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 GoldenHorde wrote:


You decided that corsets and tight fitting armour etc was "treating women poorly","for the benefit of men" or some such nonsense.That's patronising to the core.

What you are saying is you want imposed artistic censorship and don't believe the authors can stand behind their own agency.

I have taboos and all artists must cater , TO MEEEE!!!!

Corsets have been used for at least 500 years to specifically shape a woman's body to decrease waist size and increase breast/bottom size. There are of course corsets that were designed to reduce back pain or ones that were basically just a sort of midriff shirt but the majority were absolutely to encourage beauty standards.
It's not really patronising to suggest that the "women only" that has sculpted breast armour and form fitting armour is sexualised when there are little to no options for more androgynous designs even in factions that are supposed to have women in them like Astra Militarum.
Its not censorship to suggest that there should be more androgynous or less sexualised options for the representation of female/women in 40k. Its not a taboo when roughly 50% of the human race is female/women.


Got it. Authors not allowed agency. Have to write to tick boxes of representation agenda.
Get angry at people who see this as a cultural stifle cult

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:38:57


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Apple fox wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Does nobody know how to spoiler stuff so each page isn't 10 times as long as it needs to be.


I actually have struggle to get it to work on dakka. Not sure if I doing it wrong or that the iPad format makes it hard or what :(


Nope, it's just super intuitive for people not used to code or markup language. Essentially, you have to find the first closing bracket ] and then select everything afterwards EXCEPT the final /quote tag. Hit the spoiler button afterwards.

Alternatively, you can type the spoiler and /spoiler tags manually where you want them.

Be aware that you cannot properly spoiler posts which already contain spoilers - in that case it usually would be better to just delete all quotes from the original post and just leave whatever the person you are responding to wrote last.

Spoiler:

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

I honestly think instead of actually being a free thinker and deciding for yourself whether something is racist or not, you're just following canned paradigm-models that other people made up with no semblance to reality or rationality.\

If you go scapel cherry picking around and squish stuff into these canned paradigms, everything is racist

Good luck with that pure sophistry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:48:40


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
When you take one of the defining tales of a cultural group, one of their greatest figures, essentially do a retell or expy of them and then whitewash their leader, sorry but that is racist. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey


"Mighty Whitey" isn't racist ? lol OK


It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:48:14


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Iracundus wrote:
You've just proven the whole racebending point. Space Mongols...being led by white guy with topknot, not Space Temujin, while the Space Romans get to be led by Space Augustus.


Why does it have to be Tamujin though, why not Timur or Möngkeg? Why the fixation that is has to be one specific guy that represents an entire history of people. Same with the roman example. There were Iberian emperor, even ones from Afrika Concsular, there were part Tracians on the throne and that is just the western empire, because with east you get Asian Minor guys, with strong links to semitic people. Saying that Romans=Augustus makes no sense. Why not Marius or even Cezar himself .

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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