Switch Theme:

Why Don’t Marines Have Refractor Fields Built Into Their Armour?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:So it seems that Sgt_Smudge and I agree on the basics... But they are being confrontational just because they assume I have some sort of hidden agenda.
No hidden agenda, it's just your points seems needlessly reductive of how *all* of 40k is ridiculous, not just Space Marines, and so making claims on how ridiculous Space Marines are is just... short sighted.

But simply stating that SM are silly because everything in the setting is silly is a very poor argument.
Why?
The real question would be why would marines used anything rather than phobos armor in most battlefield situations.
As CthulusSpy said, I believe it is because it is less protective than Tacticus pattern armour, and if you're in a combat situation where stealth isn't going to be a foreseeable factor, why risk damaging your Phobos suits when you can deploy frontline suits instead.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why use scouts if Vanguards are better equipped and trained then? I get that scouts are marines in training, but wouldn't Vanguard marines effectively change them into acting more like black templar neophytes?
I believe that is it used because they are still getting accustomed to their Black Carapace, and so the full suit of power armour wouldn't work. Scouts are used as neophyte induction, and the reason why they're not used on the front lines like Black Templar neophytes is the same reason why most Chapters don't use the BT system even back before Primaris - because they'd rather induct their recruits as Scouts, away from the immediate front-lines, but still getting that juicy combat experience.


They/them

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




I was under the impression that Primaris marines didnt pass a scout phase. Was I wrong? If not, are new scouts being currently trained in most SM chapters?

BTW stealth is a foreseable advantage in most combat situations... If phobos armor can be built en masse... They should be the standard pattern armor for SM.

With the exception of an already stablished melee extra speed and sealth is always going to be more usefull than extra protection.

It seem that also on the 40K universe offensive systems have won the race over defensive ones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 00:17:04


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
By this metric Ratlings should be the best troopers of the Imperium of Mankind.


In many instance they would be. They are small, excellent shot and can eat literal garbage. In any claustrophobic environment or difficult environment to navigate, they are ideal. The ideal soldier will vary depending on circumstances, objective, weaponry and a variety of other factor. Space Marines are basically great in the same environments where mass tanks are great since they are themselves little tanks and you can have them support those tanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 00:33:40


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Doesn't it use special lightweight materials and servo motors though? That's another component they would have to manufacture and install.

Maybe? It's all a variance on Mk.X which is a modifiable suit that can be adapted to a specific battlefield. So if the Company needed to be outfitted with stealth gear their Mk.X would be retooled by Techmarines into Phobos. In fact a Company would go to war with all the gear it could need in a given situation so it can refit and reorganise its forces mid-campaign if need be.

Vatsetis wrote:
I was under the impression that Primaris marines didnt pass a scout phase. Was I wrong? If not, are new scouts being currently trained in most SM chapters?

Scouts is just the generic Codex battlefield term for a Neophyte. A Primaris won't go through the Companies the same way as a Firstborn would (i.e. Devastator, Assault, Tactical) but they still have to go through training as a Scout.

BTW stealth is a foreseable advantage in most combat situations... If phobos armor can be built en masse... They should be the standard pattern armor for SM.

Not when you need to defend a fortress or conduct a boarding action. Plus Mk.X is a modifiable suit of armour, Phobos is a variant of the basic pattern.

With the exception of an already stablished melee extra speed and sealth is always going to be more usefull than extra protection.

Not if stealth isn't an option and instead you need the extra armour. A full-frontal assault on an enemy position is going to fail if all you use is stealth.

It seem that also on the 40K universe offensive systems have won the race over defensive ones.

The Imperial Fists would disagree.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
A full-frontal assault on an enemy position is going to fail


That's actually a more accurate statement. A full frontal assault on an entrenched enemy is most often ruinous even in the event you actually succeed. An assault requires surprise, field preparation (which requires plenty of stealth) or an overwhelming amount of force that's why it's most often considered a stupid strategy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 00:47:47


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






epronovost wrote:
That's actually a more accurate statement. A full frontal assault on an entrenched enemy is most often ruinous even in the event you actually succeed. An assault requires surprise, field preparation (which requires plenty of stealth) or an overwhelming amount of force that's why it's most often considered a stupid strategy.

Of course, assaulting an entrenched position is going to cause a lot of casualties, it's warfare 101 but I'm not talking about running at a bunker complex with overlapping machine guns and mortars. We're also not talking about your bog-standard Lasman, we're talking about Space Marines who can sustain and dish out significantly more damage than most things they're assaulting and we have the psychological impact a SM assault will have to consider as well. An Astartes commander isn't going to order a dangerous maneuver unless they know they can win or it is absolutely necessary. Charging 30 humans with Lasguns with 10 Astartes isn't a big risk.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




In novels, Refractor Fields are super rare and not handed out to every PC in the Guard. And as defence, a RF will keep the bearer safe from small arms but heavy weapons with high rate of fire or damage output will overload the shield and shut it down just like Void Shields.


I covered that in an earlier post though. Even if they aren't given to every PC. If they're given to every CC, and above, then there's still likely to be trillions across the galaxy. If they're only give to every RC (regiment commander/colonels), and above, then there's likely to still be billions. Even if we go so far as saying only Guard Generals, and above, there'd likely still be millions across the galaxy.

That's just the ridiculous numbers of the Guard alone. That's not even factoring in organisations like the Commissariat, Militarum Tempestus, Inquisition, etc.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:I was under the impression that Primaris marines didnt pass a scout phase. Was I wrong? If not, are new scouts being currently trained in most SM chapters?
In the Ultramarines supplement (or Codex, I don't quite remember), it outlines the lifetime of a Space Marine who is given the Primaris treatment. They go through life as a Scout first, and then take up their first power armoured role in an Eliminator or Infiltrator Squad, if I'm not mistaken? However, as has been outlined regarding squad placement and armour configurations for Primaris Marines, unit designations are very flexible. An Astartes can serve as an Eliminator in one battle, and then shift into Hellblaster in the next, and then Intercessor, and so on. Unit type is far more based on the actual combat scenario than pre-determined roles.

Long story short, yes, Scouts are absolutely still trained, and even in Primaris only Chapters.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why use scouts if Vanguards are better equipped and trained then? I get that scouts are marines in training, but wouldn't Vanguard marines effectively change them into acting more like black templar neophytes?
I believe that is it used because they are still getting accustomed to their Black Carapace, and so the full suit of power armour wouldn't work. Scouts are used as neophyte induction, and the reason why they're not used on the front lines like Black Templar neophytes is the same reason why most Chapters don't use the BT system even back before Primaris - because they'd rather induct their recruits as Scouts, away from the immediate front-lines, but still getting that juicy combat experience.


Getting used to implants etc has almost nothing to do with it; the scouts themselves have almost nothing to do with it. The full marines are the reason that neophytes are used as scouts.

Marines do high pressure missions. When they regularly send a Demi-company of fewer than 50 marines against many hundreds enemies, every marine has to be covering every other marine, all the time. A given marine’s main defense is that any enemy that’s a threat is already being shot at and charged by another unit of marines. They also can’t afford to take cover, because if they’re not constantly killing a path through the enemy, the enemy will be able to direct heavy ordnance and huge numbers of troops at them. If a marine isn’t in exactly the right place at exactly the right time shooting exactly the right enemy, then another squad has to slow down and defend itself, and potentially the entire unit gets compromised and fails the mission. It’s not like guard where there are a dozen companies to the left right and in reserve.

So while scouts can be individually capable of taking down any enemy, they haven’t been battle tested and integrated into the system yet. They’re given missions that have low engagement and where it’s possible to fumble the mission a little bit without compromising a whole company or a whole campaign. They can afford the kind of tempo that allows the use of cover. This is also the reason that they’re different than Phobos armored units. The vanguard company might sneak but it’s still doing a full press on a strong target.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:I was under the impression that Primaris marines didnt pass a scout phase. Was I wrong? If not, are new scouts being currently trained in most SM chapters?
In the Ultramarines supplement (or Codex, I don't quite remember), it outlines the lifetime of a Space Marine who is given the Primaris treatment. They go through life as a Scout first, and then take up their first power armoured role in an Eliminator or Infiltrator Squad, if I'm not mistaken? However, as has been outlined regarding squad placement and armour configurations for Primaris Marines, unit designations are very flexible. An Astartes can serve as an Eliminator in one battle, and then shift into Hellblaster in the next, and then Intercessor, and so on. Unit type is far more based on the actual combat scenario than pre-determined roles.

Long story short, yes, Scouts are absolutely still trained, and even in Primaris only Chapters.


it's coidex 8.5. which from a LORE point of view was one of GW's better codices

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Jarms48 wrote:
I covered that in an earlier post though. Even if they aren't given to every PC. If they're given to every CC, and above, then there's still likely to be trillions across the galaxy. If they're only give to every RC (regiment commander/colonels), and above, then there's likely to still be billions. Even if we go so far as saying only Guard Generals, and above, there'd likely still be millions across the galaxy.

That's just the ridiculous numbers of the Guard alone. That's not even factoring in organisations like the Commissariat, Militarum Tempestus, Inquisition, etc.

You're still conflating game with background far too much.
If you read any novels that feature officers of any rank they rarely if ever have any kind of protection higher than Carapace Armour. In Gaunt's Ghosts I think two people have them, both are Blood Pact and one is second only to the supreme leader of the Pact.
Guard characters sometimes have invuln saves in game because of how weak they are and how bad their armour save is. If CC's didn't have an invuln they'd die to bolt pistols, which while accurate isn't exactly fair.
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




They wouldn’t die, there’s no way for a bolt pistol to one-shot a human officer even with perfect rolls.

That’s just kind of a foible of the rules though.

Pater Sin wasn’t in the pact but had dozens of officers in his Infardi forces with bulky personal refractor fields.

The illustrations promotinf the 2003 guard codex also gave the typical cadian officer a brass gorget covering a small refractor field generator at his manubrium.

While refractor fields are almost totally absent from all other guard in the background including from senior officers, a chapter has the resources to issue refractor fields to all of its personnel. Compared to the resources for gene seed and the lifetime of chemical therapy it requires, power armor, and thousands of recruits per finished marine, a chapter can easily afford a power sword for all of its marines too.

And the fact that they don’t give them power swords is instructive. The power sword would be actually counter productive. It would be extra weight, obstruction, and maintenance, and when marines are doing their job they never use them. It’s Lanchester’s square law, the marine is supposed to be shooting, not using a sword. For most marines, the sword is a net negative due to the aforementioned weight, obstruction, maintenance, and distraction from their designated tasks. So it must be the same for the refactor field. In some way, refractor fields are net negative to the performance of marines.

There’s no way to know if ten refractor fields next to each other interfere with the marines’ abilities to shoot, or maintain formation, or use equipment like vox, auspex, or transports. Maybe it just makes them over confident. Whatever it is, there is an in-universe reason that refractor fields hurt more than they help.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Thats a very complex way to say that SM dont use refractor fields because of reasons.

Its also imply that all SM formations act under a perfect utilitarian military rationality, which is not the case.

Also if MkX armour is fully modular and costumizable then the inclusion of a refractor field option would be obvious.

In the old days the explanation might just be that refractor fields are not an easily reproduce technology for the IOM... (and that guards officers only afford them rarely through personal contacts)... Now that the IOM has gone through the Cawl industrial revolution its makes little sense.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

So what we learnt today folks is that 40k is inconsistent.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Vatsetis wrote:
Thats a very complex way to say that SM dont use refractor fields because of reasons.

Literally every answer ever given can be boiled down to that. You're not being smart just smarmy.

Its also imply that all SM formations act under a perfect utilitarian military rationality, which is not the case.

No it doesn't.

Also if MkX armour is fully modular and costumizable then the inclusion of a refractor field option would be obvious.

Mk.X is modular in that it can be swapped between Tacticus, Phobos and Gravis fairly easily.

In the old days the explanation might just be that refractor fields are not an easily reproduce technology for the IOM... (and that guards officers only afford them rarely through personal contacts)... Now that the IOM has gone through the Cawl industrial revolution its makes little sense.

I'm not sure you understand what an industrial revolution is. An industrial revolution would be a massive change from largely agricultural and small scale manufacturing (such as blacksmiths or cobblers) into huge scale industrial manufacturing.
If anything the Imperium has had a period of scientific enlightenment but even then I'd argue that finding old tech in STC's and using that doesn't count since the knowledge was already discovered, the Imperium just didn't have the blueprints. This scientific "advancement" only applies to SM as well, the Guard, Mechanicus, Knights and SoB didn't benefit from Cawl's works nor did any civilian sector.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





people also make waaaaaaaaay too big a deal over cawl. he advanced some stuff sure but it's hardly the "technological revolution" some people make it out to be

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

How does swapping between the marks of armour work?
Just looking at the models, very little is shared. If they swap out every armour section individually what exactly is the point of this modularity?
This would only be a benefit if there was significant overlap between armour components, which visually just isn't the case.

It's also worth pointing out that there isn't one singular industrial revolution. At least when you get deeper into academia.
I think we're on like the 4th or 5th industrial era now? Each revolution is taken as a huge step up. So the steam engine was the first, but digital robots was another, for example.
So I can agree with the notion that Cawl has revolutionised the Imperium's technology. Almost literally overnight.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kirotheavenger wrote:
How does swapping between the marks of armour work?
Just looking at the models, very little is shared. If they swap out every armour section individually what exactly is the point of this modularity?
This would only be a benefit if there was significant overlap between armour components, which visually just isn't the case.

There is quite a lot of overlap in design especially in the chest, backpack, legs and to a degree the arms. The idea is that Mk.X is the base (which you wouldn't go into combat wearing) then you add specific combat enhancements to make it Tacticus (all-rounder standard loadout), Phobos (sneakier with specialised gear) or Gravis (heavy armour and firepower). At least that's my interpretation.

It's also worth pointing out that there isn't one singular industrial revolution. At least when you get deeper into academia.
I think we're on like the 4th or 5th industrial era now? Each revolution is taken as a huge step up. So the steam engine was the first, but digital robots was another, for example.
So I can agree with the notion that Cawl has revolutionised the Imperium's technology. Almost literally overnight.

There's been three (steam, mass production and age of science, and digital tech) and Cawl's advancements aren't as massive in the technological area as they seem either.
Anti-grav tech already existed and was used on tanks, these tanks were just restricted to the Cutsodes for "reasons".
A Bolt Rifle is just better Boltgun which itself has been tinkered with and seen multiple variations over its lifetime (Godwyn, Angelus, Artifex, Umbra).
Again, Cawl's new things aren't as much a deviation from previous designs it just seems worse because of the "new thing bad, old thing good" attitude many within the hobby have. The Imperium isn't as bad at innovation as it's made out to be either otherwise SM would still be wearing Crusade armour, using Umbra Boltguns and riding around in Deimos pattern vehicles. You just need to look at the variants of Lasgun to know that innovation isn't dead.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






Technological development isn’t entirely stagnant in 40K. Just incredibly slow.

Even a complete STC needs to be tested and sanctified. My theory for that fastidiousness is the Ad Mech knowing Abominbal Intelligence is Bad - but not really knowing where a clever programme starts crossing that line.

The Men of Iron almost certainly stemmed from STC stuff. But was it a single iteration/upgrade, or the early Men of Iron designing and building their successors.

So every recovered design has to be probed, proven, measured and tested. Typically by a single Forgeworld as well, as they don’t like to share.

Cawl however has existed for over 10,000 years. And for most of that, he’s been beavering away on Guilliman’s orders.

So all those fabulous new toys? There’s nothing to suggest they’re Heretek in nature, because Cawl has had the time and the authority to research and test the STC templates involved.

Sure, anti-Grav is rare. But so are the Primaris Tanks. And he’s again had 10,000 years to gather the resources, build and stockpile the finished products.

Give any Tech-Priest a similar timescale, and they too could stockpile jet bikes, Land Speeders and so on.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I do agree with you to a point. Afterall the landspeeder was a common sight for Space Marines before Cawl, I have no problem with the grav tech.

But stuff like the bolter and particularly the geneseed in general is huge. Although I think GW has backed off the whole test tube thing though?

I actually think Cawl's advances have been greater in non-militaristic contexts.
For example, he has developed the ability to terraform worlds from Tyranid-stripped rock to almost a garden world in a few years.
As comparison, the Dark Age of Technology mankind took 5000 to terraform Taros from a totally inhospitable desert to a mostly inhospitable desert.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kirotheavenger wrote:
But stuff like the bolter and particularly the geneseed in general is huge. Although I think GW has backed off the whole test tube thing though?

The Bolt Rifle is just a more powerful Boltgun, hardly a quantum leap.
By test-tube I assume you're meaning the cryo-pods the first batches of Primaris were kept in? Also, the whole purified gene-seed thing was dropped by the time the first "mutant" Codex arrived and the Primaris BA suffered the Black Rage and Red Thirst (I think it was even mentioned that it manifested stronger due to the gene-seed being purer).

I actually think Cawl's advances have been greater in non-militaristic contexts.
For example, he has developed the ability to terraform worlds from Tyranid-stripped rock to almost a garden world in a few years.
As comparison, the Dark Age of Technology mankind took 5000 to terraform Taros from a totally inhospitable desert to a mostly inhospitable desert.

When did this happen?
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The first Primaris were definitely grown in tubes and emerged fully formed.

The planet he terraformed was in some novel, involved a chapter with a name like silver dragons or something? The details are hazy as I didn't care to remember those.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






I thought his De-Nidification thing was mostly theoretical? Will need to re-read Cawl.

The Geneseed thing I’ve waffled on about before, specifically that Astartes were originally a bodge job, a rough and ready salvaging of the Primarch programme post abduction. Rather than being The Emperor’s finest work, they were “oh sod it, good enough and I’m out of time”.

Given He has a long and storied history of refining his gene science, it seems perfectly credible that without the Heresy occurring, he’d have revisited the Astartes programme once he’d sorted the web way access.

I assume Cawl was working from the same blueprints, trying to get the process as close as possible to The Emperor’s original intent. Certainly he has unique knowledge and insight.

The improve Bolt Rifle is again likely a matter of “what could’ve been originally had their not been a war on”, with the original Boltgun again being a “it’ll have to do” settling over more complex alternatives.

With Cawl not needing to dispatch any of his creations to war whilst he awaited Guilliman’s return, he could indulge in the creation of more complex weapons.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kirotheavenger wrote:
The first Primaris were definitely grown in tubes and emerged fully formed.

The first Primaris might have been Martian children who are pod people but the actual Primaris had the normal surgery then got put in suspended animation/cryo sleep. Many others of the first wave were full Firstborn recruited just after the Heresy who were then turned into Primaris and put into cryo.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:Thats a very complex way to say that SM dont use refractor fields because of reasons.
Congratulations, you described every plot element in 40k!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Technological development isn’t entirely stagnant in 40K. Just incredibly slow...
So all those fabulous new toys? There’s nothing to suggest they’re Heretek in nature, because Cawl has had the time and the authority to research and test the STC templates involved.

Sure, anti-Grav is rare. But so are the Primaris Tanks. And he’s again had 10,000 years to gather the resources, build and stockpile the finished products.

Give any Tech-Priest a similar timescale, and they too could stockpile jet bikes, Land Speeders and so on.
Absolutely. I think a lot of people are mistaking Cawl's hasty introduction in the lore (which I'll fully agree was very rapid) with him literally only just inventing the Primaris on a whim. That's not how we're told it happened.

kirotheavenger wrote:The first Primaris were definitely grown in tubes and emerged fully formed.
No, they weren't. The "test tubes" that we see in that one animation are cryo-pods, housing Astartes recruits gathered from across the Imperium dating back as far as the Heresy. They weren't cloned, they weren't vat-grown. They are normal Astartes recruits, just trained via hypno-induction and implanted memories (which is why they were incredibly tactically inflexible and could only perform the roles they had been assigned to do during the early Indomitus Crusade).


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I'm pretty sure they mentioned sending the cloning tech to random chapters they couldn't be bothered to have Girlyman visit in person?
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm pretty sure they mentioned sending the cloning tech to random chapters they couldn't be bothered to have Girlyman visit in person?
Not cloning tech - they gave away the tech required to make Primaris Marines.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 kirotheavenger wrote:
I'm pretty sure they mentioned sending the cloning tech to random chapters they couldn't be bothered to have Girlyman visit in person?

It's not cloning tech. Kiro, have you actually read any background pertaining to Primaris or do you just get your info from second hand sources and memes?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 13:37:33


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I read the WarCom articles at the time, although what I know of the actual novels is mostly second hand.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I thought his De-Nidification thing was mostly theoretical? Will need to re-read Cawl.


He gave an outline of the plan to the Scythes and it started at the end of the novel, though it is never stated whether it actually went through to completion. From what I recall there was a one line hint that Cawl went off elsewhere after the novel and it is implied he did not personally see the plan through to completion (possibly implying that it only progressed partway).

The actual plan is actually not that far fetched from what we know of science today, just it is of a scale and magnitude that we cannot actually enact it. Basically Cawl was saying that though the Tyranids had stripped the surface layers from the world, the remaining bulk of the planet had enormous reserves of gases and water within it (something we know holds true for Earth today as well). He had already generated a very thin atmosphere in the course of the novel over a very specific small area at Cawl's initial landing site, by processing and outgassing this stored gas from the rocks. His idea was to do this at a larger scale, to restore an atmosphere and get it to a pressure where water would remain liquid, and then use icy asteroids or comets from the system to help restore the oceans and set up the hydrological cycle again. That was to be followed by re-seeding of plant life from Cawl's bio-bank of stored genetic material and samples.

It's basically terraforming the world all over again. Cawl admitted doing so to Sotha was not efficient, when it might be easier to find other habitable worlds, but he seems to have seen the task as a challenge, not just to do but to do it so quickly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 14:05:04


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: