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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
we also see normal humans holding their own against eldar in the fluff too IIRC. the fluff is inconsistant


The fluff is actually rather consistent on one point. If you are a hero of any faction, you can defeat a hero of any other faction even if it looks far fetch and massively improbable. After all, Space Marines have successfully dueled Hive Tyrants who are stronger, faster, bigger, smarter than them to a high degree and powerful psykers easily on par as the greatest Librarians. On paper, it doesn't make any lick of sense, but it does. I attribute this to a rather "comic book style" where in one issue a character is basically all powerful and quasi divine and the other it's defeated by Batman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 23:25:31


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Apologies for the last post being 2 months ago today, but this is directly relevant to the discussion.

I have come across an interesting tidbit on an archived page from the old 3rd war for Armageddon event website.

These excepts are from a communication log sent by stormtrooper Captain Harkavian of the 1st Black Guard Strike Force, based in Helsreach Hive. They are requesting that the Asgardian Rangers be deployed to an extended reconnaissance mission within an area of the Ash Wastes plagued by fast-moving Ork warbands.

However, I feel that the Asgardian Rangers have many advantages in their use throughout this warzone above and beyond Scouts of the Space Marines

...the Asgardian's ability to stay in the field and subsist in the most desolate of areas will prove invaluable. Marine Scouts mounted on bikes will be constrained by the need for fuel, for resources are sparse in the Ash Wastes and they will also suffer in situations where stealth, rather than skill at arms, is required.

I have no wish to impugn the skills of the Adeptus Astartes. I pray to the Emperor that just one squad of their warriors could join us here in the defence of Helsreach, for they alone could turn the tide of battle. But in the duty of watching and recording Ork forces beyond the Hemlock Cordon, the Asgardian Rangers must be the clear choice. No other army on the planet has their skill or knowledge of reconnaissance within enemy held territory.


The full log is in the link above. Within it, the stormtrooper officer is quite clear that Astartes scouts, whilst effective, are better suited to combat-stealth missions rather than pure stealth missions, and are not as effective in the latter as dedicated human recon troops. With regards to the particular conditions of this warzone, they also note that Space Marines on bikes are not as sustainable or stealthy as recon guardsmen using specialised roughrider mounts.

Whilst obviously not definitive, and referring to the Salamanders (a Chapter not especially noted for stealth), it heavily supports the idea that Marines can do stealth well, but not as well as humans specialised in stealth operations.

RIP rough riders Maybe we could hope for a killteam release or something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/19 12:01:59


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





That sounds like stormtrooper spanking or indication Salamanders have a really gak scouts. If nothing else, SM scouts have no morale issues, can eat anything, survive on 1/10 of rest and sleep human needs, see better (and in dark, too), can interrogate even dead enemies by eating brain matter, and you need less of them to match combat power of stormtrooper squad making again, for smaller and stealthier unit.

Even the roughrider point fails to hold any water once you realize SM can run as fast as horses, only for longer, being much smaller targets than a rider, making less noise, and being far less dependent on terrain. Try running your horse on rocky or uneven ground, a few minutes later you'll be forced to mercy kill mount with a broken leg that screams from pain giving your location to anyone within a few miles. Even humans can cover more ground in a day than a horse can (it's how we hunted them for tens of millennia, in fact, exhausting them in pursuit) and SC scout has vastly better speed and stamina reserves...
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

You forgot to mention that space marines can spit acid.

   
Made in hr
Fresh-Faced New User




Croatia

The full log is in the link above. Within it, the stormtrooper officer is quite clear that Astartes scouts, whilst effective, are better suited to combat-stealth missions rather than pure stealth missions, and are not as effective in the latter as dedicated human recon troops. With regards to the particular conditions of this warzone, they also note that Space Marines on bikes are not as sustainable or stealthy as recon guardsmen using specialised roughrider mounts.

Whilst obviously not definitive, and referring to the Salamanders (a Chapter not especially noted for stealth), it heavily supports the idea that Marines can do stealth well, but not as well as humans specialised in stealth operations.

RIP rough riders Maybe we could hope for a killteam release or something.


Depends. There is a reason why phobos pattern power armour was invented, and it was exactly to justify Marines being able to stealth with it's reduced moto-servors noise and lighter design. Proper camouflage and knowledge in moving silently and you basically have what Raven Guard and Raptors are. Size has little matter in it. Of course Astartes are soldiers first and their stealth is not your typical dungeon-rogue-type-of-stealth, but more of a fast assault from out of nowhere, or a pre-planned ambush. They are warriors first and assassins second.

When you think about it logically, Astartes are shock troops. Their modus operandi SHOULD by default include : shock assault, infilitration, sabotage, assassination and so on.

However for the purpose of wargaming, models and themes/flavours, most Astartes are similar to conventional ww1/ww2 troops, mediaeval armies, antiquity barbarians and so on, there's really no rule. And I think that's fine. This is fiction afterall.

If you want sneaky, ninja like Astartes, go play Raptors.
If you want sci-fi knights with greatswords, play Dark Angels.
Brutal Barbarians? Space Wolves, Minotaurs, Carcharodons, Flesh Tearers.... list goes on.


The fluff is actually rather consistent on one point. If you are a hero of any faction, you can defeat a hero of any other faction even if it looks far fetch and massively improbable. After all, Space Marines have successfully dueled Hive Tyrants who are stronger, faster, bigger, smarter than them to a high degree and powerful psykers easily on par as the greatest Librarians. On paper, it doesn't make any lick of sense, but it does. I attribute this to a rather "comic book style" where in one issue a character is basically all powerful and quasi divine and the other it's defeated by Batman.


Considering the weaponary Astartes have at their disposal, this is really not so surprising.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/22 11:31:52


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Ok, I want to be clear that no one is saying Astartes cannot be decent at stealth. But the suggestion in this thread has been that Space Marines are silly because they are the best at everything, or even that they are absolutely the best at stealth, when we have reasons for why this is not the case for Space Marines on the whole.

Of course, Raven Guard and some of their successors exist, and appear to have a passive, borderline-psychic ability to hide in plain sight as already discussed in this thread. Obviously, a lot of the GW writing on this is a bit gakky, but it is a common enough trope that it has to be assumed that Raven Guard have essentially supernatural stealth in order to be able to achieve the feats they have. They are not the Astartes norm though, and have few successors with not all of them demonstrating they have inherited this ability (such as Carcharodons).

 Irbis wrote:
That sou/nds like stormtrooper spanking or indication Salamanders have a really gak scouts. If nothing else, SM scouts have no morale issues, can eat anything, survive on 1/10 of rest and sleep human needs, see better (and in dark, too), can interrogate even dead enemies by eating brain matter, and you need less of them to match combat power of stormtrooper squad making again, for smaller and stealthier unit.

First of all, the Stormtrooper officer is not comparing them to his own troopers, although it does appear he has some squads secreted in the region for extra muscle should they be needed (not, it would seem, purely for reconnaissance).

Secondly, the rangers are specifically noted as also being able to subsist in the region without resupply, presumably living off the land. In this particular example, at least, the endurance benefits of scouts you mention are not needed, especially when taking into account that we are talking an entire regiment being dispersed into a region compared to, at best, a handful of squads.

Even the roughrider point fails to hold any water once you realize SM can run as fast as horses, only for longer,

Citation needed. Game rules obviously do not equal background lore. However they do provide an indication, and in literally every edition both have had rules, rough riders move faster than Space Marine scouts in battlefield conditions.

being much smaller targets than a rider

Fair point.

, making less noise

Citation needed, as compared to a Marine running full tilt.

, and being far less dependent on terrain. Try running your horse on rocky or uneven ground, a few minutes later you'll be forced to mercy kill mount with a broken leg that screams from pain giving your location to anyone within a few miles.

This is a fair point on versatility of reconnaissance rough riders vs foot scouts specifically, although the terrain is noted as being suited to rough riders in this example. Eitherway, the comparison still stands favourably against scout bikers, who are also hampered by rough terrain. Having said that, horses can traverse very rough terrain at low speeds, and if the terrain is rough enough to slow horses, it is also going to slow the Ork vehicles they are trying to outmanouevre...

Even humans can cover more ground in a day than a horse can (it's how we hunted them for tens of millennia, in fact, exhausting them in pursuit) and SC scout has vastly better speed and stamina reserves...

Yes, this is true for wild earth horses up to the present day (not that many wild horses are left). It is also generally true that cavalry has less strategic mobility in history than well-trained, fit infantry carrying combat loads (which has generally been elite infantry). It is not universally true for cavalry though- the Mongols (using 4-5 mounts per rider) were able to maintain a military strategic mobility greater than any of the infantry they were facing, suggesting the individual horses could outrun an armed human over days whilst carrying some equipment. Of course, Astartes have far more endurance than a human... but you are also assuming the "horse" of the 41st millenium is even close to the horse we see today.

I direct you to the following quote from the article:
Storm Trooper Captain Harkavian, 1st Black Guard Strike Force, Helsreach Hive wrote:We have witnessed the sheer speed of the Asgardian's biologically enhanced mounts, manipulatively bred for generations by Tech-Adepts.

I find it is rare to find a rough rider regiment in Astra Militarum lore that is not described as using some kind of enhanced mount, if they are even using horses. For example, the only currently supported rough rider unit is Death Riders, and their horses are genetically and cybernetically enhanced. I think it is highly implausible that we can extrapolate the abilities of current horses to 39,000 years into the future with the kind of certainty to say a Space Marine scout is definitely the superior physical specimen in both top speed and endurance when we have an actual primary source from the setting saying that these horses have better endurance than the Astartes motorbikes, whilst also providing enough speed to outrun Ork vehicles.


In summary, we have a situation where mobile stealth is needed for reconnaissance, and an in-universe source is stating that some specialised Imperial Guard riding horses can do it stealthier and better than some Salamander scouts on scout motorbikes. This does not seem at all implausible. It supports the notion that Marines are not always superior at stealth to non-Marine humans.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/12/11 22:04:31


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Nerak wrote:
I see two problems with this line of reasoning. The first being the opposition. The second being the astartes training. First problem. The opposition the astartes face is usually very competent. Eldar, necrons, tyranids and orks all have inhuman physics that let them to a greater or lesser extent fight on equal grounds with astartes. Yes the inhuman speed of an astartes would destroy a human. But imagine the fear of seing that speed and strength matched or even overcome. You'd probably collapse in fear.

Second is that astartes are trained in manners far surpassing that of any currently alive depicted hero. They only recquire very little to no sleep and spend almost all their time awake studying war and combat. You're not looking at just someone swinging away, using their strength and speed to their advantage. You are also looking at someone who knows every aspect of close quarter combat and can probably predict an outcome long before the first fist is swung.

As a side note I wanted to include this clip since you mentioned hallway fights. Probably the best hallway fight scene ever put to film, from the movie old boy.



Nah son, The Raid Hallway scene is the best ever.


   
 
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