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Dude, this is literally a thread about making a major change to the lore. Maybe back up a step or two and consider why *this* is the point at which you feel the uncontrollable urge to counter-argue and then just... let it go.

And let the thread do its thing in peace.

To me the change to primaris is genuinely a bigger change to the themes of the setting than having female space marines would be.

But we've had this debate at length, so perhaps it's best to leave it?

On the Ork psyker thing, I am just generally of the opinion that the belief and mysticism parts of 40K have gotten too extreme and I'd like to scale them back. It's just a question of how much fantasy seasoning I want in my sci fi game, whereas others see it as how much sci fi seasoning is in their fantasy game.

The only real things I'd like to see would be more exploration into the lesser-know races of 40K, maybe as a 'dogs of war' style units rather than a full army. I know Kill Team is probably the way to do this but it would be nice to see the scope of the game broaden.

That, and kill some main characters off. Let them die, bring in new ones and broaden the 40K 'verse into new narratives.

Catulle wrote:Dude, this is literally a thread about making a major change to the lore. Maybe back up a step or two and consider why *this* is the point at which you feel the uncontrollable urge to counter-argue and then just... let it go.

And let the thread do its thing in peace.

You are right. There is no use in arguing and counter arguing about female marines. Let's continue with the original thread topic.

Cronch wrote:Maybe if the marines weren't presented as the posterboys of the game, THE superhumans, THE good guys people would not mind having 50% of humanity being excluded from the Defenders of Humanity But Really Cool club.

The funniest and saddest part is, 40k is so wide in scope that you absolutely could have boys-only marines chapter even if the lore supported femarines.

While I can not agree with you on the matter of femarines, you are right marines are presented as the posterboys of the setting. I hope for a change in this regard.

The one major thing I would change in the setting is to shift focus from marines to other more interesting elements of 40k. GW should focus more on Xenos factions (the old ones as well as new ones) and on the more human elements of the setting.

It already happens to some degree as more factions are introduceded and fleshed out like the Mechanicus and Xenos factions get some love (sadly only as the enemy of the month for Marines, as seen in the "Old Foes" bundles). I especially hope to see some non-marine Chaos factions, like lost and damned cultists or the Dark Mechanicum.

I personally think Necromunda does an exceptionally well job at this and I really look forward to seeing even more of that hive world.

But it would love to see that focus shift from Marines also in the broader 40k lore. (As marines are GW's main bread winners I don't expect this change coming soon).

I'd increase more friendly xenos encounters, focus less on space marine and more on humanity.

Less grand changes:
1. I'd bump off permanently one of the Chaos Primarch Daemon Princes probably Magnus, to open up some story possibilities and also define the limits of both daemon princes and primarchs currently.
2. Dark Eldar would just be Eldar Pirates, I find the whole race/culture to be kind meh except for Drazhar.
3. Ignore the whole Squats being consumed by Tyranids to near extinction, move them to being cut off like the Tau.

grahamdbailey wrote:


That, and kill some main characters off. Let them die, bring in new ones and broaden the 40K 'verse into new narratives.

The weird thing for me is 2nd and 3rd edition had a lot of 'dead' special characters. Lord Solar Macharus, one of the SoB characters, probably more. So 'historical' characters were always a thing. So why is GW so concerned about finally squishing some model from 2004? It'll still be usable.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

grahamdbailey wrote:


That, and kill some main characters off. Let them die, bring in new ones and broaden the 40K 'verse into new narratives.

The weird thing for me is 2nd and 3rd edition had a lot of 'dead' special characters. Lord Solar Macharus, one of the SoB characters, probably more. So 'historical' characters were always a thing. So why is GW so concerned about finally squishing some model from 2004? It'll still be usable.

Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines. Tycho of the Blood Angels iirc.

Pretty sure Nork was long dead as well.

Apparently he got better.

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Dark Eldar would just be Eldar Pirates, I find the whole race/culture to be kind meh except for Drazhar.

Agreed. And instead of making Commorragh purely an Eldar city, I'd make it a hub where you can find lots of renegades and mercenaries from various races of the galaxy. Less evil lair and more lawless trade port, similar to Tortuga (Pirates of the Caribbean), Omega (Mass Effect) and the real-life pirate republic of Nassau.

Regarding the Drukhari, I'm also not a fan of Vect being "Supreme Overlord". I'd rather he only be the leader of the most powerful faction—closer to a glorified mob boss than the self-styled ruler of the city.


If we're talking about a major change to the setting, I would change Chaos as a faction to give it better in-story PR. Instead of being genocidal lunatics who want to turn planets into charnel houses and disease-ridden hellscapes, Chaos leaders should be charismatic visionaries who declare that the Imperium is stagnating and who profess the goal of helping humankind fulfill its true potential. They should actually be a tempting alternative to the distant, indifferent Emperor for all the weary manufactorum workers and oppressed freethinkers.

.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Cronch wrote:

Movie Marines - A marine should be Captain America in Iron Man armor with Thor's Hammer.

And we run into the issue of...so are Aspect Warriors, Tyranid synapse critters and Nobs. Marines are not better than the other factions top warriors, they're equal to them and many, many times better than the baseline human, which is basically gretchin-tier combatant. But BS2 cadians would anger everyone.

Like I said it would fundamentally change the tabletop game, but if we're making a major change to the setting it's the one I would do.

Yes an Aspect Warrior should be as skilled as a marine, but not nearly as strong or tough.
An Ork Nob should be as strong and tough as a marine, but nearly as skilled or well equipped.
A Nid big beast should be stronger and tougher, but the marine faster and smarter.

Marines should not the 'average' army they should be the superior one. Or what's the point of the 1000 Marine fluff, the ~20 organs, the power armor etc.

A marine should be an action hero, a video game character, ordinary foes should just spontaneously die when one hits the field, like in a Schwarzenegger film.

So what's stopping them from overrunning the universe? There's only 1000x1000 of them, no sooner do they fight off 10,000 orks to kill the warboss then it's back the ship because they have to fight through thousands of Tau to stop their Ethereal.

Imagine being the Avengers but spending 24/7 either fighting or traveling to fights cause there's only war.

Ork nobz in lore are actually usually many many times better than the average marine, better armed, and the ork genetics for better melee really start kickin in. The models a really also don’t do em justice to just how ‘uge they are.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Dark Eldar would just be Eldar Pirates, I find the whole race/culture to be kind meh except for Drazhar.

Agreed. And instead of making Commorragh purely an Eldar city, I'd make it a hub where you can find lots of renegades and mercenaries from various races of the galaxy. Less evil lair and more lawless trade port, similar to Tortuga (Pirates of the Caribbean), Omega (Mass Effect) and the real-life pirate republic of Nassau.

That's sort of kind of a thing. There's a port in one of the Fantasy Flight Rogue Trader RPG books that is basically exactly what you're describing. IIRC, it's basically just a webway settlement away from Commorragh proper that acts as a forward operating base/trade center for the kabal that runs it. We see similar settlements in the Path of the Outcast and Salamanders Omnibus, so it's not unreasonable to think that there are other drukhari-run "little Commorraghs" out there that are relatively metropolitan.

Also, while Commorragh itself is definitely drukhari-dominated, there does seem to be a bit of alien presence there. The sslyth are employees rather than slaves, after all. And we know that harlequins and corsairs can do business there. Non-eldar probably aren't terribly safe wandering around the city (and neither are the drukhari), but there's probably some amount of non-eldar presence in at least some sections of Commorragh.

Regarding the Drukhari, I'm also not a fan of Vect being "Supreme Overlord". I'd rather he only be the leader of the most powerful faction—closer to a glorified mob boss than the self-styled ruler of the city.

I mean, isn't that exactly how he's presented? No one seems to be obeying Vect out of recognition of his legitimate legal authority or anything like that. He's obeyed because he's got the raw firepower to kill you and the political power to keep too many other archons from acting out at the same time. "Supreme Overlord" is just a title he gave himself as a flex. It's a thing he makes people call him because it's a reminder that he's powerful enough to make him do so. To use the crime boss analogy, he insists on being called "the Don." If you call him by his first name instead, it might be seen as an intentional show of disrespect, and the possibility that word of that disrespect might make its way through the grapevine to Vect himself means that you end up losing sleep.

How is Vect as presented different rom what you'd like to see? I've always interpreted him as being exactly the way you describe.

If we're talking about a major change to the setting, I would change Chaos as a faction to give it better in-story PR. Instead of being genocidal lunatics who want to turn planets into charnel houses and disease-ridden hellscapes, Chaos leaders should be charismatic visionaries who declare that the Imperium is stagnating and who profess the goal of helping humankind fulfill its true potential. They should actually be a tempting alternative to the distant, indifferent Emperor for all the weary manufactorum workers and oppressed freethinkers.
.

I kind of want both. Like, a chaos marine shouldn't need warp-fueled mind control to convince a bunch of starving, poisoned imperial serfs that things might be better under new management. But also the over-the-top cartoon villains are fun. Also also, Chaos seems to be bad at not mutating and corrupting those it touches. Even if you're vocally anti-chaos god, there's a decent chance you're going to end up crazy and sporting at least one tentacle if you spend too much time in the general vicinity of Chaos.

Cronch wrote:

It's not a matter of "behaviour" it is a matter of actual physical performance. The science is clear on this too.

Here's the fun part, there is no science to it, because nothing, not a single blessed thing about marine creation process stands up to any sort of scientific scrutiny. It'd be more scientific if you said "wee little elves did it". It's ALL made up. "Due to the transhuman nature of the creation process, it matters very little what gender the inductee was, the end result is so far beyond human physiology any small variables of the original frame are made irrelevant by the artificial musculature and bones that replace their original natural organs". There, voila, fixed your "problem".

In other flippant words, the people who want to see female space marines due to wokeness also want to see a pile of dead little girls and want extra female servitor slaves (nice)

Well yes, I'm woke so I assume all people are equal and dead female soldiers are as bad as dead male soldiers, and female slaves are just as bad as male slaves. You have some sort of ladder of badness where male slaves are a-ok compared to female?

Also, don't Blood Angels (or some chapter) take from a heavily irradiated world? And their applicants all have crippling radiation sickness?

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Cronch wrote:

It's not a matter of "behaviour" it is a matter of actual physical performance. The science is clear on this too.

Here's the fun part, there is no science to it, because nothing, not a single blessed thing about marine creation process stands up to any sort of scientific scrutiny.

Except maybe......choosing males based on a higher of baseline athletic performance and natural aggression

Sure. Which matters for unaugumented humans no doubt! Not so much for a being that can bench-press a car, those added 20-50kg of extra upper body strenght really don't add up to much at that scale. But if you insist, we can write that into the new lore too, because, again, there are no space marines, all of it is made up. There is no relation between the small amount of sexual dimorphism humans display and marine-making process cause it literally doesn't exist. It's made up. Wholly. Like eldar, orks, and the rest. It's not real, real life does not factor into 40k at any point, or marines would all just...explode into disjointed flesh parts based on GW descriptions.

There are no space marines, there is nothing to defend here.


Also, I propose that Terra must be destroyed.

How old are aspirants?

Because this Lexicanum article says they join the Marines as brothers (so Scouts) 16-18.
Which would make them even younger when they START the process.

It also doesn't list physical condition (pre-surgeries) as having to be good-it does require them (or at least want them) to have aggression and a killer instinct, but that can be found in people who are not at physical peak. It lists the big issue as compatibility, not physical strength or anything.

JNAProductions wrote:How old are aspirants?

Because this Lexicanum article says they join the Marines as brothers (so Scouts) 16-18.
Which would make them even younger when they START the process.

It also doesn't list physical condition (pre-surgeries) as having to be good-it does require them (or at least want them) to have aggression and a killer instinct, but that can be found in people who are not at physical peak. It lists the big issue as compatibility, not physical strength or anything.

And even if physical strength were a prerequisite, it's a big galaxy. One of the space wolf novels (first book of the omnibus iirc) features an aspirant who is notably scrawnier than the others. He's basically the weedy nerd of his group. Now, that kid got eaten by a troll before he could become a blood claw, but it suggests that there's an acceptable range of beefyness for aspirants; they don't all have to be future olympic weight lifters. So uh. It seems like there ought to be some number of young women out there who are at least as beefy as the relatively scrawny fenrisian nerd.

Goose LeChance wrote:Nobody wants female space marines anyway. There's a small group of politically motivated twitter activists, but they aren't worth catering to.

Don't have a Twitter account. Still think that having the poster boy faction be a boys only club is kind of a bad look. That said, I'm not sure how you'd go about introducing femarines. Retconning it in seems super awkward. But saying that Cawl just suddenly came up with a process to allow for it feels really ham-fisted.

It's one of those problems that should probably have been nipped in the bud, solved when primaris were first introduced, or avoided by not having a mono-sex faction be the poster faction. But now it's a hard problem to solve gracefully.

Another major(?) fluff change: Delete the bit about Kheradruakh finishing his skull collection in Commorragh. Making Aelindrach slightly bigger doesn't really add anything to the setting, and it certainly doesn't add anything that couldn't have been explained by the disjunction that was already happening. The skull collection was a cool thing to speculate on.

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Cronch wrote:

It's not a matter of "behaviour" it is a matter of actual physical performance. The science is clear on this too.

Here's the fun part, there is no science to it, because nothing, not a single blessed thing about marine creation process stands up to any sort of scientific scrutiny.

Except maybe......choosing males based on a higher of baseline athletic performance and natural aggression

Well, except maybe... because that would be a composition fallacy. A characteristic true to a whole cannot be assumed to be individually true to all the components of that whole. That's what average means. That's why, despite being a man, I am weaker than many women. If you are going for high athletic performance and aggression, you will recruit mostly men, but some women should, statistically fall in there, especially since women exceed men on average in some athletic performances like agility, balance, precision and general coordination and there are always statistical aberration and abnormal results. It would also be very reductive to basically say that aggression and strength are the most important characteristic for a combatant; there are a lot of other key characteristic to a successful soldier like calm, discipline, perceptivity, teamwork, precision, intelligence amongst others.

Bear in mind that the aspirant process also filters out the weaker people in the bunch. That's kind of the reason it exists. Think back to the movie "Soldier" when they executed that kid that couldn't keep up with the group. Same sort of deal.

Just Tony wrote:Bear in mind that the aspirant process also filters out the weaker people in the bunch. That's kind of the reason it exists. Think back to the movie "Soldier" when they executed that kid that couldn't keep up with the group. Same sort of deal.

epronovost wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Cronch wrote:

It's not a matter of "behaviour" it is a matter of actual physical performance. The science is clear on this too.

Here's the fun part, there is no science to it, because nothing, not a single blessed thing about marine creation process stands up to any sort of scientific scrutiny.

Except maybe......choosing males based on a higher of baseline athletic performance and natural aggression

Well, except maybe... because that would be a composition fallacy. A characteristic true to a whole cannot be assumed to be individually true to all the components of that whole. That's what average means. That's why, despite being a man, I am weaker than many women. If you are going for high athletic performance and aggression, you will recruit mostly men, but some women should, statistically fall in there, especially since women exceed men on average in some athletic performances like agility, balance, precision and general coordination and there are always statistical aberration and abnormal results. It would also be very reductive to basically say that aggression and strength are the most important characteristic for a combatant; there are a lot of other key characteristic to a successful soldier like calm, discipline, perceptivity, teamwork, precision, intelligence amongst others.

I feel like epronovost's post addresses this pretty well, no?

Iv said it before and I’ll say it again. Any decision about the inclusion of female space marines (or not) will come down to money and sales.

If GW is convinced that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who would play 40K but don’t because “space marines are only male”, then they will bring female space marines in a flash. Everything is built around getting money from the customer (they are a commercial company after all).

Female Space Marines isn’t really a lore question. It’s a sales and recruitment question

Flame bait and other assorted shitposts have been removed, some quotes or posts rising to the bait have also been removed, if I have been too zealous, my apologies. Now I would very much like for this topic to trundle along again, without the pointless shitposting, baiting and whatnot from both sides of that particular argument. If this topic generates more alerts we're just going to lock it and be done with it, I'd rather not do that, as some interesting ideas and observations on other matters have been shared here as well.

Also, still in dire need of sweets..

I would like to see some alien allies, like how the empire can band in inquisitors and assassins.

Like the Slaught.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Slaugth

I'd like to go back in time and keep marines as prisoners. The paladins-in-space archetype never interested me, but I'd definitely play a bunch of murderous convicts pressed into service in power armor and pumped full of combat drugs. I'd have that reflected in the models too. I know current marines can be pretty grimdark too, but the models have more of a noble knight vibe than a murderous bastard vibe to me.

I also wonder how that would have affected the evolution of the popularity of the faction, the neglect of other factions and the rest of the game (bl lore, releases, rules, the works). Would marines still have been the posterboy faction? What would that have looked like?

I think you'd inevitably come back to noble knight archetype again over few years/decade unless the studio made conscious effort to keep it from happening. It's like design convergent evolution- all things power armored turn into knights/samurai in time.

epronovost wrote:
especially since women exceed men on average in some athletic performances like agility, balance, precision and general coordination

Oh is that so? Interesting. What's the data on that?

epronovost wrote:

It would also be very reductive to basically say that aggression and strength are the most important characteristic for a combatant; there are a lot of other key characteristic to a successful soldier like calm, discipline, perceptivity, teamwork, precision, intelligence amongst others.

I think 'reductive' is a healthy part of the whole point of the IoM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Cronch wrote:

It's not a matter of "behaviour" it is a matter of actual physical performance. The science is clear on this too.

Here's the fun part, there is no science to it, because nothing, not a single blessed thing about marine creation process stands up to any sort of scientific scrutiny.

Except maybe......choosing males based on a higher of baseline athletic performance and natural aggression

Well, except maybe... because that would be a composition fallacy. A characteristic true to a whole cannot be assumed to be individually true to all the components of that whole.

Right, but at the same time aknowledgement of the statistics can still come in to play, responsibly or irresponsibly. It seems perfectly plausible that a far-from-ideal fictional warlike culture would coldly make the sort of calculations resulting in the fiction that we have. I prefer the view that the Emperor just wasn't motivated enough to develop FSM because of his own ignorance/lack of foresight/miscalculation/obsession.

It's not like I think female super soldiers can't/shouldn't exist. Far from it. Imo the important bit is that the Imperium is incredibly flawed, down to it's very foundation, and that it's flaws are perpetuated in an unbroken cycle, partly because it's heroes and icons are flawed.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's not like I think female super soldiers can't/shouldn't exist.

I hope so, Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence are super soldiers by all definition of the term. Though it could be a major change to be made to the Imperium to make it a properly patriarchal and machist society that erases women.

Far from it. Imo the important bit is that the Imperium is incredibly flawed, down to it's very foundation, and that it's flaws are perpetuated in an unbroken cycle, partly because it's heroes and icons are flawed.

That's a rather ''facile'' way of interpreting things. The Imperium has a lot of flaws and is supposed to be an insane and cruel regime, but it doesn't have ALL the flaws possibly imaginable. For example, the Imperium's racism is purely fantastic racism, that is racism toward aliens and other fantasy creature, it's not racist or social darwinian in the way we are accustomed on Earth. It's sexism is also dubious at best. While it does evoque some sexist-ish trope due to the Catholic fundamentalist ''vibe of the Imperium'' it doesn't seem to display any form of overt or class based sexism within the fluff with women found at any rank and position without mentionned of that being exceptionnal, weird or facing rejection from their peers. The Imperium could be sexist, and probably should be to certain extend to make it a properly repressive and ultra-fascist society, but it doesn't seem to be the case. It has its own brand of fantastical fascism.

I prefer the view that the Emperor just wasn't motivated enough to develop FSM because of his own ignorance/lack of foresight/miscalculation/obsession.

If that's the case, how about GW show that? There is nothing in the background that to us, the readers, would suggest lack of femarines is some sort of flaw or oversight. It's quite obvious it was not even a conscious decision when the background was written, space marines are all boys cause duh, they are.

It's particularly funny when you realize that IG had female soldiers pretty much from 3rd ed (if not earlier, I don't remember) onwards, which means the dramatic difference between male and female agression and strengh is not an issue for the largest military organization in the galaxy. You'd think with how expensive and rare spaceship lift capacity is, they'd only select the finest, most macho males to serve in the elite Imperial Guard (vs the planetary defense forces).

Wyldhunt wrote:
Don't have a Twitter account. Still think that having the poster boy faction be a boys only club is kind of a bad look. That said, I'm not sure how you'd go about introducing femarines. Retconning it in seems super awkward. But saying that Cawl just suddenly came up with a process to allow for it feels really ham-fisted.

It's one of those problems that should probably have been nipped in the bud, solved when primaris were first introduced, or avoided by not having a mono-sex faction be the poster faction. But now it's a hard problem to solve gracefully.

Yes, that's my view too. There probably should have been female Marines all along, but it's hard to change that in a way that doesn't feel forced.

With the Stormcast Eternals from AoS, at least, it was never explicit that they were all male even when all the models were male. So it was fairly easy to introduce female models later on.

.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
I'd like to go back in time and keep marines as prisoners. The paladins-in-space archetype never interested me, but I'd definitely play a bunch of murderous convicts pressed into service in power armor and pumped full of combat drugs. I'd have that reflected in the models too. I know current marines can be pretty grimdark too, but the models have more of a noble knight vibe than a murderous bastard vibe to me.

That actually would be a pretty cool background for a marine chapter. Murderous criminals drawn from a penal world, kept sedated most of the time then let loose.

Definitely something different.

If you want a book where that very thing happens then grab Robbie MacNiven's Carcharadons: Red Tithe. It is very good.

I would like to see the rise or fall of the Eldar, they've been sort of stuck in this limbo of dying race for so long. Move their story a long a bit either kill them off or rejuvenate them some how.