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Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

If you care strongly for the flavor of your army and want the peculiarities of your faction to feel very special and make the game turn around them, then you are probably going to like the modern editions.



Or not, in fact i think 9th is only second worse than 6th, if i want what you describe i am grabbing the 3.5 chaos codex or the 3rd ed index astartes books for things like white scars or pretty much any codex made for 3rd or 4th edition with only a few exceptions. the rules that make them different are built into the faction and do not require a resource mechanic that suddenly makes my force stop being able to operate like it should because i ran out of enough command points to play a stratagem that used to be a trait/ability the faction naturally had.


I think a fellow dakka poster once said it best. the older version of the game made it feel like these were your dudes, and they were fighting in the way they would fight if they are in that scenario/setting, not necessarily the best way they should fight.

A good example is our khorne player. he uses the 3.5 chaos dex in our 5th ed games-berserkers are holding the objective, the smart thing is to hold it and move it away from the enemy, what would berserkers actually do while holding the magic McGuffin if they see and enemy they can assault? the fluff says go hit them with my pointy stick, and when they blood rage that is exactly what they try to do. i do not need a stratagem to make them do it or be fearless or use chain axes etc... that is all built into their specific rules.

So yes as i have said before 8th/9th edition is not 40K, it is a different game with the 40K name with many of the same characters and troupes and you can use your minis to play either. in fact, we found that using 8ths simple rule set makes a good template for playing 10K+ games of epic 40K. it is to abstract to make a normal scale 2k game interesting but it is enough to make putting down half a chapter of marines on the table with all their support elements play fast and interesting at such a large scale (and a fraction of the cost).



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





That's why I said "Likely to" and not "Sure to"

In 9th you get to have your own trait, super trait, powers, relics, wlt and ways to score points (stratagems are only a minimal part of faction flavor), so the amount of rules dedicated to adding flavor to your faction and making it play differently from other factions is simply without precedents. And yet since it is a matter of flavor, you can't rule out that someone will prefer the previous one

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 13:56:47


 
   
Made in gb
Cackling Chaos Conscript






 aphyon wrote:
Well, you are a rare exception. 6th is nearly universally despised. the numbers bear it out. it nearly killed the game and got quickly replaced in just over 1 year (14 months). i know a few people who started with 6th and felt a big improvement in 7th until they started spamming formations.

8th and by extension 9th are a completely different game. it may say 40K on the box but it feels nothing like 40K of the previous 5 editions that had many identical core mechanics.


I thought 6th added flavour with the new unit types and I thought flyers were cool at the time. Now they just seem tacked on...

I forgot 9th was even a thing, not been paying attention much the last few years. Only "back" now in a modelling sense anyway.

1800pts 40k Night Lords, 2500pts 30k Iron Warriors, 200pts 40k Dark Eldar

Backlog blog: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/592210.page 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




I'm partial to 2nd edition, and I'll die on that hill. No release has recaptured for me how 2nd edition played. It actually felt like a tactical game. Plus you didn't need special rules for every single thing on the table.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






ScooterinAB wrote:
I'm partial to 2nd edition, and I'll die on that hill. No release has recaptured for me how 2nd edition played. It actually felt like a tactical game. Plus you didn't need special rules for every single thing on the table.
Haha no, but your wargear might come it's own reference chart, lol. Blind effects, setting on fire, plasma expansion, snotlings that appear inside the Terminator suit, bionic legs that kick people out of combat (and into my overwatch fire ). Hell each vehicle had its own set of tables to roll on for damage.

Lots of texture in that game!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

I have the 2nd ed guard codex, the leman russ has 2 pages of rules.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I really like 2e, but mostly as something I remember discovering, rather than something I really want to try and teach someone how to play!

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




2nd Ed’s complexity has been greatly exaggerated over the years… personally I found it much easier to get to grips with than all the strategems / command points etc of today’s games. Just make sure you have plenty of scatter dice on hand as nearly every weapons you fire will scatter to some extent ha ha
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Luke82 wrote:
2nd Ed’s complexity has been greatly exaggerated over the years… personally I found it much easier to get to grips with than all the strategems / command points etc of today’s games.
I think that's because much of the complexity of 2nd came from either weapon effects (damage charts or blast tables), or fairly intuitive increases of detail (firing out or doors and hatches of vehicles, throwing grenades).

Stratagems are this extra layer of gamey abstract decisions with tremendous importance to a game's outcome. You HAVE to be considering them all the time, but they're pretty inorganic, imo.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





The necromunda 2nd ed rules were IMO a pretty good attempt at simplifying 2nd ed while still evoking the feeling.

However they kept the 2nd ed melee rules (which makes sense for a skirmish game), which were too complex for fast play.

IMO you can take 2nd ed, swap in the 3rd ed melee mechanics of WS comparison and use Initiative as an opposed roll against BS in the same way (rather than a static value based on the number) and you've got a pretty simple and effective game.

So in summary:

2nd +

BS vs I
WS vs I

(using the 3rd ed WS table - or you could use the current SvsT table for hit rolls instead if you want 2+ and 6+)

Modifiers are always to BS or WS, no to hit rolls before comparing.

damage simplified to 1, d3 or d6/2d6

remove excess weapon effects (setting on fire, permanent plasma blasts etc)

And the game isn't too bad, psychic powers not withstanding






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 22:33:06


   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

For me, it's going back a bit now but 4th edition was the last version that felt like a coherent, controlled war game.

I know it definitely had its issues (as has been said, the vehicle and transport rules were poor) but it felt like it had a lot less broken special rules, or imbalanced lists. I seemed to have a lot more games that went down to the wire and neither side particular upset by crappy rules or a poor codex. Of course that might be entirely anecdotal

By the time 6th edition had arrived, and my infantry were just being carpet-bombed by what looked like Tomix toys, I'll be honest the game had started to leave me

 Insectum7 wrote:
ScooterinAB wrote:
I'm partial to 2nd edition, and I'll die on that hill. No release has recaptured for me how 2nd edition played. It actually felt like a tactical game. Plus you didn't need special rules for every single thing on the table.
Haha no, but your wargear might come it's own reference chart, lol. Blind effects, setting on fire, plasma expansion, snotlings that appear inside the Terminator suit, bionic legs that kick people out of combat (and into my overwatch fire ). Hell each vehicle had its own set of tables to roll on for damage.

Lots of texture in that game!


There was definitely a lot more detail, and everyone hated rolling to see what happened to smoke grenade templates at the end of each turn. But it was mitigated by the fact you had a lot less miniatures on the table. You could go down to that level of granular detail.

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Pacific wrote:

By the time 6th edition had arrived, and my infantry were just being carpet-bombed by what looked like Tomix toys, I'll be honest the game had started to leave me
That description is gold. Lol.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

The_Real_Chris wrote:
2nd ed with the GT limits to characters and psychic powers.

2nd ed. Terribly unbalanced hero hammer...it was great!

Vortex attacks. Vortex bombs. Firing from off the board. Imperial Guard with assault gun landspeeders. So much cheese.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

During 4th-5th our local group played 2nd with a few restrictions.

No Wargear cards and terrain density closer to Cities of Death.

Really enjoyed that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 21:38:14


 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

Kind of how we are currently using a combination of kill teams/combat patrol from the 4th ed BRB for our kill team games now.

Good stuff all around.




GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Eldarain wrote:
No Wargear cards...
Aww... but they're fun!

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






2nd Ed remains the most fun I’ve ever had in 40K. And yes much of that will stem from the time it was. I was a kid. Thankfully not spotty, but a little Herbert all the same,

Managed to play one game where it was my Dark Angels Company (plus around half the Deathwing) against all comers. That game was messy, but bloody good fun.

Vehicles didn’t just explode, you could blow turrets off them, only to land and squish someone. Chief Librarians on Combat Drugs and Iron Arm absolutely wrecking everything and everyone. Witnessing an Avatar run away from an Inquisitor’s Psycannon (which auto wounded Daemons and denied them a save).

So much fun and nonsense.

Probably little use for a tournament game I’ll grant you. But still bloody good fun!

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

It was for sure!

And I think it probably benefited from the time it was about, you didn't have people doing mathhammer army lists on the internet and trying to break it. Instead you were encouraged to mess about with the army lists and try different stuff, and your mates threw something at you if you did anything too cheesy.

Can you imagine if that was the current system and with people netlisting it? GW would certainly sell a lot of Wolf Guard terminators armed with assault cannons and cyclone missile launchers!

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Ah, but that was rapidly FAQ’d!


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

But they still could have assault cannon/Storm Shield!

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I think that 'netlist' phenomenon really has been detrimental to a lot of traditional games, be they card games, wargames or even RPGs.

   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I definitely think it's an unavoidable side effect of modern social gaming (of any form - look at the video games that are ruined by hackers these days, just using simple step downloads and mods. In the old days you really had to know what you were doing for worthwhile online hacks! )

My problem is that the netlisting helps to frame what is then regarded as a desirable or 'the best' way to play; of min-maxing units, optimum unit combinations and a mentality that is based purely on tabling your opponent as efficiently as possible. And that sits awkwardly with the type of game that 40k is trying to be (or has ever professed to be); while it still can be used in tournaments, I'd argue that there are many other games that do a much better job of it, are a better measure of tactical acumen or ability to strategise, if you want to test your strengths in that area against others in a formal setting. And so it eclipses what I think are the strengths of 40k in terms of ways to play, the strong background and narrative, the characterful units and combinations etc.

But I know that is a much bigger subject for another thread!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah, but that was rapidly FAQ’d!


Haha I didn't realise that. To be fair, I only saw it used once, and it was a sight to behold! 'Shock and awe' of that many giant templates coming down on one turn didn't cover the half of it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 15:24:17


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think that 'netlist' phenomenon really has been detrimental to a lot of traditional games, be they card games, wargames or even RPGs.


A design paradigm is that, given the chance, players will optimize the fun out of any game system. Its human nature. As a developer you need to make as hard as possible to just find an optimal way to play the game that makes all others useless.

In the top end you'll always end up with the most optimized stuff but if you are capable of having a more balanced game people will be able to take less optimals choices (less say a 5% less of power) and compensate for player skills or matchup strenghts or weakness. The more unbalanced the game is, the less choices and variety in the top end.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 17:45:13


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Yeah, that is true. I've just noticed a trend with new players across the board that the first thing they do when learning a game is go look stuff up online, and a huge amount of the advice is really binary "this is trash, take six of these" or for RPGs "this class is trash, play this and take these feats" etc.

It takes away that exploration phase of just learning the game by yourself and having fun with your self expression in the game. Pretty quickly with my RPG group I had a couple of players showing up for new campaigns with obvious net builds, or complaining that I didn't allow stuff outside the PHB because they'd read that the stuff in expansion books was more powerful or whatever.

It dominates a lot of the online discussion of warhammer too, listbuilding is the easiest thing to talk about with regard to improving your chances to win so that's what people talk about most of the time.

I find it pretty tedious, but like you say, it's just in people's nature to try and find the most efficient stuff to use. But my heart sinks when I see it.

   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





To be fair, when you're new to a game you won't necessarily be able to tell what's legitimately good and what's a trap option. I'd wager that most folk want to be somewhat mechanically competent (or, at least, not be dead weight for the group), and since the character/army concept is usually something you don't need to have much knowledge of the game to come up with, I don't think it's really the newbie's fault for doing a bit of research to make sure they're not accidentally gimping themself (I wouldn't expect it of every newbie, but I don't think we do ourselves any favors by looking askance at it without some external reason to do so). Remember, RPGs and wargames can involve significant expenditures of time and money - finding out that you made a fundamental mistake doesn't get better if you don't find out until after you've spent dozens of hours/hundreds of dollars making it, and I think that modern gamers are generally aware that there is at least a risk of that in modern games.

Also, let's not forget, exploration can uncover hyper-optimized builds just as often as dead-ends. I'll respect a newbie who does some research to make sure their, say, 3.PF Druid is at least decent at what they want it to do, I'll respect even more a newbie who may have heard about CoDzilla and done research to make sure their 3.PF Druid doesn't accidentally overshadow the rest of the party.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Da Boss wrote:
. . . listbuilding is the easiest thing to talk about with regard to improving your chances to win so that's what people talk about most of the time.
This is very true. I'd also add Stratagems to that. Those two things are the easiest points to verbalize, so that's what conversation gravitates towards. It's really too bad, because actually using lists effectively is really what most people struggle with, imo.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah, but that was rapidly FAQ’d!
Not before some pretty epic stories manifested on the tabletop though! I remember a Terminator with Cyclone exploding upon death, causing a buddy to also get killed, and HIS misfiring cyclone fired into the back of a dreadnought causing it to explode as well!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm surprised no one who hates 40k has chimed in yet to chastise people for blaming players for what must obviously be an evil conspiracy by the worst company in the world. That usually happens within one or two post of someone criticizing netlists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/04 05:09:40


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I mean 40k do a crap job of balancing their games but the obsesion with optimization is a bigger problem that affects all communities.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

PenitentJake wrote:
I'm surprised no one who hates 40k has chimed in yet to chastise people for blaming players for what must obviously be an evil conspiracy by the worst company in the world. That usually happens within one or two post of someone criticizing netlists.


The thing is, you're mostly talking to a group of players here who are into the old version of the game for the fun of the game and playing to the lore.

Sure the "netlists" existed in the older editions, and we all knew "that guy" who would copy tournament lists. and some of them were hard to crack, but not to the extent we have examples of now.

I have faced the double lash prince/nurgle bubble wrap list, the iron warriors heavy support army (still do), the carnifex horde list and even the dreaded eldar corsair list from FW. i do not auto-lose those games and sometimes i win.

Sometimes the comp minded players find ways to twist the rules in a way that even GW has admitted they never intended, and sometimes we even build stupid lists just to try them out to see how stupid they are...like a jakero themed list for the 5th ed GK codex....so many monkeys

Part of the problem has been with the successive editions of the game with more and more focus on "balance" in a way the older editions and players never saw the game within their regular casual player groups.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/04 07:40:56




GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in pt
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Galas wrote:
I mean 40k do a crap job of balancing their games but the obsesion with optimization is a bigger problem that affects all communities.


Optimising for what becomes the question. Maximal X with X being open…

   
 
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