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 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Matched play is intended to be tournament play, which can't be 2500-3000 points games, let alone higher formats. In fact most TOs even enforce time limitations, because 2000 points games are already massive and not optimal to handle.

Outside matched play there's no cap on flyers or ork buggies.

I think the main reason for TO to use 1000/20000 is that the GT packs don't support onslaught.

Do you have any reasoning for that? Because the incredibly obvious answer is Time and the inability to fit 3 3000 point games within a day and 2 games being not enough for a variety of reasons.

Yeah no, i rather be 1500-1750 than even 2k for events, I would hate a 3k event.

3k mean no more 1 day events of 3 games, and 5-6 round events would be a nightmare for sure.

Heck 2.5hrs 6 round events in 2 days is already a really long day. Even going up to 3.5 and 2500 would be way too long.

So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

Well, it sucks that my second SJD is a display piece now, but outside of that my usual list is mostly unaffected. I rarely ran more than two planes anyways, and if I really want to bring down the hammer from above I can still run double wazzboms.

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

The only change that had an impact on my games was the cap on buggies. I don't like playing planes (the only model I was willing to get is a still WIP scratch built project), let alone 3+, and never field more than 4-5 buggies anyway.

I typically run three solo scrapjets, so without changing anything I just crammed all three vehicles into a single unit to satisfy the new requirements. Problem is those buggies really need to move and 150mm bases are massive. Squigbuggies couldn't really care about squadron since they don't need line of sight, unless they get tagged perhaps, but moving a squadron of buggies that want to have good line of sight and possibly a clear path to assault is pretty hard. It's not really game changing but I'm not sure I now want to bring three scrapjets.

Next games I'll probably try to reduce the squadron to two models and I'll trade the third model with a different kind of buggy that will go solo, a snazzwagon I think.

I played an Armored Company game with all Russes and counted the number of saves I made due to the 2+ that I wouldn't have made with the 3+.

The answer was five. But! They were big deals like saving against meltaguns on a 6+

Voss wrote:
Or just a basic desire for common ground, without people's oh-so-convenient houserules. "oh, I didn't realize it gave me that much of an advantage"

Right, common ground...between two people.If you think a rule gives too much of an advantage...alter it. Who cares. Games workshop's rules quite blatantly give players unfair advantages, we complain about it literally all the time. The only difference when doing it between two people is it might actually take one of those players' collections actually into account and be more balanced, and it wont make GW money.

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

I played Black Legion vs Astra Militarum on Friday. It was nice, but none of the new rules really came into effect. I think a couple of group move-move-move orders and a tank commander telling some heavy mortars to shoot harder.

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

GT this weekend so I'll post again Sunday if I see anything notable. One Admech player mentioned having to cut 250 points from his list.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Its just like the Baneblade. IG treats each baneblade as much more precious than a dozen leman Russ. So, given how many men and tanks that IG has, I can picture a Baneblade showing up in an IG army, but it would be absolutely surrounded by tons and tons of IG armor and troops. Can I picture 3 Baneblades by themselves with token IG troops around them ? I can't. It literally makes zero sense.

It's called a super-heavy company and it 100% exists in lore. There should absolutely be rules to represent this, similar to Knight Lances.

Jarms48 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Its just like the Baneblade. IG treats each baneblade as much more precious than a dozen leman Russ. So, given how many men and tanks that IG has, I can picture a Baneblade showing up in an IG army, but it would be absolutely surrounded by tons and tons of IG armor and troops. Can I picture 3 Baneblades by themselves with token IG troops around them ? I can't. It literally makes zero sense.

It's called a super-heavy company and it 100% exists in lore. There should absolutely be rules to represent this, similar to Knight Lances.

There are rules and I do field it fairly routinely. I just don't talk about it here because people hate the idea of it. XD

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

I got a game in with Post-nerf Drukhari with my Tsons and it was like night and day. The caveat being that this was still a typical heavy wych/incubi build and was not the new coven build.

 Sasori wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

I got a game in with Post-nerf Drukhari with my Tsons and it was like night and day. The caveat being that this was still a typical heavy wych/incubi build and was not the new coven build.

This is highly dependent on the list. I had Bloodbrides, taking them out and making them normal wyches equaled the points. I also had Trueborn + raider (that I was already thinking about taking out for a Ravager) are now taken out and replaced with a Ravager, saving me 120pts. My list did not go up in points after that at all, actually it went down 40pts after the 2 Succubus, 15 Incubi, and other Wyches so I added a unit of Wracks.

Over all I did lose 5 wounds, 2 blasters, +1BS/WS to a couple units, and that was it. But I will be modifying it a little more to add in Talos and maybe Grots. Aotf Grots/Talos has been good all 9th but they were just a little out classed, now they are for sure worth it with the points drop.

Just to let people know Trueborn + Raider was already questionable, they are over costed now. You can instead have 2 Ravagers for 1 TB+Raider unit, this is a net gain in general. And Bloodbrides were already consider over costed, they didn't need to be +1pt more than what they were on top of the Wych +2pts. You will never see BB's again unless its for fun/playing down.

I am happy for my army to be nerf, I just wish they did it a smarter/better way on a couple units. Like Nerfing some of the WL traits and Relics, and not Bloodbrides....

 the_scotsman wrote:

Voss wrote:
Or just a basic desire for common ground, without people's oh-so-convenient houserules. "oh, I didn't realize it gave me that much of an advantage"

Right, common ground...between two people.If you think a rule gives too much of an advantage...alter it. Who cares. Games workshop's rules quite blatantly give players unfair advantages, we complain about it literally all the time. The only difference when doing it between two people is it might actually take one of those players' collections actually into account and be more balanced, and it wont make GW money.

I have never had a good experience with house rules. Ever, no matter the system, in 30+ years. Not one. It has certainly never, ever been 'more balanced.' People have poor judgement when it comes to that sort of thing, and its much, much worse when its their own.
Asking people to tone it down gets a puzzled look, incomprehension (feigned or not) and a 'No.' Its just easier to just... not deal with it.

Rihgu wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

I played Black Legion vs Astra Militarum on Friday. It was nice, but none of the new rules really came into effect. I think a couple of group move-move-move orders and a tank commander telling some heavy mortars to shoot harder.

You can't group order a move-move-move.

Voss wrote:
I have never had a good experience with house rules. Ever, no matter the system, in 30+ years. Not one. It has certainly never, ever been 'more balanced.' People have poor judgement when it comes to that sort of thing, and its much, much worse when its their own.
Asking people to tone it down gets a puzzled look, incomprehension (feigned or not) and a 'No.' Its just easier to just... not deal with it.

This, so much. Even if the majority of a group agrees on a house rule, it just takes one or two people to exploit/oppose it for it to completely fall appart.

Most other games where you play against an opponent don't need house rules to function, there is no reason why 40k should be an exception.

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

Sadly have stopped me using my small storm trooper air cav (Troopers in Valks supported by a vulture). Probably a good thing as they weren't very good... Still means I would have to paint other stuff if I wanted to use them, so 40k is shelved for the indefinite future whilst I play other games instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EightFoldPath wrote:

I'd like to see the 2 Aircraft MODEL limit be reverted and a more detailed reduction in the flyer slots being made. 0 slots in all patrols/outriders/vanguard/spearheads/battalions/brigades (I think that is all of them that give flyer slots), but then have a detachment bonus if your warlord is in the detachment of 1 flyer in a patrol, 2 in a battalion, 3 in a brigade.

That would still suck for transport planes. I wonder if making transports exempt would be ok? So Blackstars, Valks, that stupid looking marine one. Etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
2 flyers in a 2000 points game is still a lot of flyers IMHO .

Gotta disagree. 240pts of Dakkajets in a 2k point game isn't that much.

Would a 1/3 cap on 'special models' (aircraft, LoW in a non knight army, etc.) have done the trick instead? Or is that still too much?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Scions should probably get an exemption for their Valkyries which are mostly glorified transports, but they are fluffy for Scion armies and it is a shame they were a casualty of this otherwise very necessary update.

Were any other transport fliers a problem?

 Sasori wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

I got a game in with Post-nerf Drukhari with my Tsons and it was like night and day. The caveat being that this was still a typical heavy wych/incubi build and was not the new coven build.

Did you win ? I would have thought incubi would still wreck a TS player's day. Was it more a raider heavy build or a venom build (venom builds seem so skewed to me, you just auto lose to so many oppononts now IMHO) ?

I am facing ad mech saturday, and I still don't have a good answer to the Temporcopia Rustalkers and all their skitari vet cohort friends... I still think myu orks have a nearly 40% chance of winning, but things need to go my way a bit. Still feels a lot better now than two weeks ago !!

Spoletta wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
So... these changes have been out in the wild for a week now - anyone managed to get any games in with them? If so, how did you find them?

I played Black Legion vs Astra Militarum on Friday. It was nice, but none of the new rules really came into effect. I think a couple of group move-move-move orders and a tank commander telling some heavy mortars to shoot harder.

You can't group order a move-move-move.

Ah, it may have been Forwards! For the Emperor! then. It was one of the mobility orders but I don't remember exactly.