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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

You may be right, PenitentJake, but my impression from the rumor post was that changes to subfaction usage and detachment are specific to the Mission Pack itself rather than to Matched Play in general or Battle Forged Army construction. Time will tell.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




tneva82 wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I think making patrols less versatile is a good thing, there was just not enough reason to take any other detachment. You now need to bring the 3 CP detachments instead of 3x patrols.


It's a good job GW hasn't built an entire faction around taking multiple patrols in lieu of normal detachments, otherwise players of said faction might be really fething annoyed by this change.


oh no how will drukhari ever recover



tneva82 wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Some factions are already mono-dimensional such as the Marine chapters.
Others like Drukhari and GK are not and they seem to get nerved heavily.
I can live with it although I only play competitively.


Well. At least you PRETEND to play competively Nobody in the world plays competive 40k.


what? are you living in 2010?


You seriouly think gw games can be played competively? For that player skill would need to be deciding factor.

Sleeping is more competive than gw games.

Only noobs think gw games are competive. As is level of skill needed is about 3rd grader. 1st grader can already solve the best army list.

Gw games are beer&pretzel by definition. Kids might think it's competive...until they read rules.


How many big tournaments have you won then?

Tough talk coming from someone who apparently isn't even at third grade level.

The only people who say that skill isn't at least A major factor in winning 40k are people who need an excuse for why they lose so often.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 01:13:34


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







One could say it is a different skill.

If one is terribad at army-building, or builds to priorities other than victory, then their tactical skill can struggle to make up for it.

Top players combine tactical skill and skill in army list construction to win. The cheating scandals besmirch this slightly but I generally think most aren't cheaters!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ERJAK wrote:
How many big tournaments have you won then?

Tough talk coming from someone who apparently isn't even at third grade level.

The only people who say that skill isn't at least A major factor in winning 40k are people who need an excuse for why they lose so often.


Or people who have played other minis games... it's all relative.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 alextroy wrote:
You may be right, PenitentJake, but my impression from the rumor post was that changes to subfaction usage and detachment are specific to the Mission Pack itself rather than to Matched Play in general or Battle Forged Army construction. Time will tell.


Very cool- this is a possibility I hadn't even considered.

It's also a good reminder that there's another MP on the way 6 months after this, and anything could change again.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





This isn't the first time that the GT mission pack introduced changes to the detachments.

CA2021 made some changes to the Super heavy auxiliary detachments.

Are you using those in your crusade games?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
One could say it is a different skill.

If one is terribad at army-building, or builds to priorities other than victory, then their tactical skill can struggle to make up for it.

Top players combine tactical skill and skill in army list construction to win. The cheating scandals besmirch this slightly but I generally think most aren't cheaters!


In my opinion, for WH40k, list building should be the skill to build an army that enables you to win the game with your tactical skill.

List building should not be able to win the game by itself - because why even bother playing the game if it has been decided before the first miniature moved?

Of course, you can always lose the game at the list building stage. For example, if you are lacking the means to handle armor, no amount of tactical skill will make up for that.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





40K is much more than list building right now.

I know that many don't like to admit it because it means that if they lose they can't blame it on the faction, but right now the player makes a lot of difference.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Spoletta wrote:
40K is much more than list building right now.

I know that many don't like to admit it because it means that if they lose they can't blame it on the faction, but right now the player makes a lot of difference.


Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Spoletta wrote:
40K is much more than list building right now.

I know that many don't like to admit it because it means that if they lose they can't blame it on the faction, but right now the player makes a lot of difference.


Well, some players can for sure blame their faction, as especially 8th edition codices require you to own and play a very specific set of models in order to have any shot at winning.

For most 9th edition codices, I would agree though. There still is the issue that the power level of semi-casual level armies of some armies like drukhari or TS are almost at tournament levels. A thematic TAC army drawn from a codex like marines or necrons really has issues to defeat those unless the skill gap between players is immense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/16 11:57:14


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Most of those "excuses" are actually the player's fault.

"It isn't bad, you just aren't playing it right": it is very possible to be mislead in the first place and pick up a wrong game. I mean someone might want a tactical balanced tabletop game which works with a limited cool collection of miniatures and then choses 40k, which has never been and never will be the kind of game that player was seeking. Then it is true that the player isn't playing it right. Competitive 40k doesn't really work good for random pick up games between players with limited collections, it works well when the players have the chance to bring whatever they want. Tournament data proves that that kind of environment works pretty well. It works equally well when players can fix their lists before starting to play in order to achieve more balance. Not everyone wants to play like that or can afford chasing the top choices, finding the right group of players is crucial for 40k as there are many ways to play it, so "you just aren't playing right" is definitely not an excuse but something that might be very true.

"How do you know it's bad if you don't play it?": there are people who just believe whatever they want to believe. If their trusty source says X they believe X. That's pretty common for a lot of things, not necessarily 40k. Something that involves so many parts like 40k must be experienced to understand its flaws. Otherwise it's just repeating stuff like parrots.

"Why do you still play if you don't enjoy it?": this is beyond my comprehension honestly. Why would someone play a game he/she doesn't enjoy really is beyond me. And I refuse to believe that playing tabletop games causes addition.

 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





I would add "why do you keep complaining about a game you admit you're not playing / you haven't played in a long time?"

As always, there's a silent majority who's enjoying the game and buys miniatures (hence why GW keeps making money) and a vocal minority who keeps complaining about a game they don't like nor play.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







I think army list building is a skill, for sure.

The thing that used to disappoint me in earlier editions (and still does at the moment) is that fluffy lists aren't always congruent with good lists.

I don't think an army of all cultists with no anti-tank should be able to win. But I do think a cultist-themed army that goes out of its way to make subpar choices to preserve the theme should still win (via having subpar "trap" choices not exist).

9th is actually pretty damn good in this regard imo.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Nazrak wrote:
"Chapter tactics" etc etc were a mistake imo. If you ask me, a better way to tighten things up for matched/competitive play would be to remove them entirely, and keep the flavour rules for narrative game and/or chill people who can be trusted to behave.


Yep. Subfaction rules that boost certain units literally make balancing impossible. It is pretty obvious.

   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Aenar wrote:
I would add "why do you keep complaining about a game you admit you're not playing / you haven't played in a long time?"

As always, there's a silent majority who's enjoying the game and buys miniatures (hence why GW keeps making money) and a vocal minority who keeps complaining about a game they don't like nor play.


Why do you play a game you don't care enough about to critique or improve? The vocal minority that insists on no complaints* is just weird to me.

*except, of course, complaining about complaints. That is obviously fine and not a waste of time at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/16 18:11:53


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Sim-Life wrote:

Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


THAT is a valid question.
And it has very few valid answers - of wich the common answers of sunk cost & "bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


"bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.


Pray tell why is that not valid?


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 Sim-Life wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


"bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.


Pray tell why is that not valid?
Hitting your head against the wall because it feels better when you stop is not a good reason to hit your head against the wall
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 alextroy wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


"bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.


Pray tell why is that not valid?
Hitting your head against the wall because it feels better when you stop is not a good reason to hit your head against the wall


How about an honest answer to the question rather than a strawman?
Having a fun social experience playing a game with your group is still fun, even if the game isn't perfect. No point in burning everything down just because it isn't 'just so.'

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/16 19:12:33


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

40K is generally a 2 player game. If you don't enjoy the game, there has to be other options for social interaction with 1 person than a game you don't enjoy. I have a friend who stopped playing 40K for a good spell because he just didn't enjoy the game. He finally abandoned his army for one with a radically different playstyle (Space Marines to Tyranids) and now at least has fun.

So yes, my response may have been in the form of a joke, but it isn't invalid. Why do something you don't have fun doing when you can do nothing and at least not be aggravated?
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

There are also other ways to play 40K than just "let's pretend we're at a tournament", lest folk forget.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 alextroy wrote:
40K is generally a 2 player game. If you don't enjoy the game, there has to be other options for social interaction with 1 person than a game you don't enjoy. I have a friend who stopped playing 40K for a good spell because he just didn't enjoy the game. He finally abandoned his army for one with a radically different playstyle (Space Marines to Tyranids) and now at least has fun.

So yes, my response may have been in the form of a joke, but it isn't invalid. Why do something you don't have fun doing when you can do nothing and at least not be aggravated?
Why are you framing this as 'bad game= no fun EVER?' You're presupposing a lot and creating an answer no one said.

You've never watched a bad movie and still enjoyed yourself? Read a bad book and had fun picking it apart? Went to a restaurant you didn't like, but still had a good time?

The attitude you're suggesting is healthier strikes me as problematic- 'if it isn't perfect, just leave.' But the world isn't ever perfect, and constantly abandoning everything isn't a workable solution.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 19:45:56


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Voss wrote:

Why do you play a game you don't care enough about to critique or improve? The vocal minority that insists on no complaints* is just weird to me.

Not sure that's what was said. I play 40k regularly-ish but still complain about the boatload of rules I have to remember for my Deathwatch and regularly end up with close to my starting number of Command Points because I forget Stratagems exist. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy playing the game. Just because people enjoy something doesn't mean they love it 100% without reservation. For example:
I love Destiny 2. The gunplay is great, the locations are amazing, the classes are fun to play and overall it's an enjoyable game. That being said the balance is awful for PvP and a bunch of content requires you to have friends to play with.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Voss wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
40K is generally a 2 player game. If you don't enjoy the game, there has to be other options for social interaction with 1 person than a game you don't enjoy. I have a friend who stopped playing 40K for a good spell because he just didn't enjoy the game. He finally abandoned his army for one with a radically different playstyle (Space Marines to Tyranids) and now at least has fun.

So yes, my response may have been in the form of a joke, but it isn't invalid. Why do something you don't have fun doing when you can do nothing and at least not be aggravated?
Why are you framing this as 'bad game= no fun EVER?' You're presupposing a lot and creating an answer no one said.

You've never watched a bad movie and still enjoyed yourself? Read a bad book and had fun picking it apart? Went to a restaurant you didn't like, but still had a good time?

The attitude you're suggesting is healthier strikes me as problematic- 'if it isn't perfect, just leave.' But the world isn't ever perfect, and constantly abandoning everything isn't a workable solution.
We seem to be on different wavelengths. I was responding to:
and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.
"bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.
Pray tell why is that not valid?
Focusing on not enjoying playing the game, not thinking the game was bad but still worth playing. IMO playing a game you don't enjoy to hang with your buds is a bad reason to play a game. Better to hang and let them play so you don't allow the bad game to ruin enjoying your friends.

So if the game is good enough, but not excellent, enjoy hanging with your friends and tossing around the dice. There is a reason many call 40K a beer and pretzels game. It's not a great game, but it's good as an excuse to hang out.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Sim-Life wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


"bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.


Pray tell why is that not valid?


Unless there's some sort of requirement to play (for ex; the one guy who worked at the FLGS really doesn't like Sigmar - but it was his actual job to demo games & round out brackets for league play if there were an odd #), why would you willingly waste your free time doing something you don't enjoy?
If you already know it'll be a bad experience, & it's optional to participate, then skip doing it. Just go find something to do that you do enjoy.
If you insist upon playing games you don't enjoy? Then that's on you & please don't regale the rest of us with your sob story of how you didn't have fun.

   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Ah, the good old "it isn't bad you just aren't playing it right" excuse. I love it just as much as I love other such classic terrible arguments such as "How do you know its bad if you don't play it?" and "why do you still play it if you don't enjoy it"?.


"bad gaming is better than no gaming" aren't.


Pray tell why is that not valid?


Unless there's some sort of requirement to play (for ex; the one guy who worked at the FLGS really doesn't like Sigmar - but it was his actual job to demo games & round out brackets for league play if there were an odd #), why would you willingly waste your free time doing something you don't enjoy?
If you already know it'll be a bad experience, & it's optional to participate, then skip doing it. Just go find something to do that you do enjoy.
If you insist upon playing games you don't enjoy? Then that's on you & please don't regale the rest of us with your sob story of how you didn't have fun.



Well here's an example from my actual life.

I have a friend who lives about 50 minutes drive away. We all live in a rural county so aside from some extraordinary luck of one guy who lives 5 minutes up the road almost everyone I know who plays 40k is at least 20 minutes drive away. Anyway, this guy loves GW games and will only play GW games. I do not like 40k currently, but it's all he'll play. He's also got 3 kids, I have no money for petrol to make the nearly 2 hour round trip or space to host games. The ONLY way I'd get time to see this friend is in the context of playing a 40k game because if he gets the 4ish hours free he wants to enact his hobby.

So should I just never see this friend again because I don't enjoy 40k?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 20:43:44



 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




None of this has anything to do with the topic of this thread. How about you just agree to disagree and move on?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




For Daedalus.

Have you had any more success crunching the dataset to see subfaction popularity and splits?

I think you were saying it was difficult.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Blackie wrote:"It isn't bad, you just aren't playing it right": it is very possible to be mislead in the first place and pick up a wrong game. I mean someone might want a tactical balanced tabletop game which works with a limited cool collection of miniatures and then choses 40k, which has never been and never will be the kind of game that player was seeking. Then it is true that the player isn't playing it right.


No, because GW isn't willing to admit that 40k isn't that game. It's not the player's fault for being mislead by the company.

Blackie wrote:"How do you know it's bad if you don't play it?": there are people who just believe whatever they want to believe. If their trusty source says X they believe X. That's pretty common for a lot of things, not necessarily 40k. Something that involves so many parts like 40k must be experienced to understand its flaws. Otherwise it's just repeating stuff like parrots.


If the same people who said "How do you know it's bad if you don't play it?" would admit that they were wrong when it was actually put on the table, but instead they retreat behind even more tortuous excuses. It's more likely to be bad-faith attempts to argue away fundamental imbalance and designer bias for different factions.

Blackie wrote:"Why do you still play if you don't enjoy it?": this is beyond my comprehension honestly. Why would someone play a game he/she doesn't enjoy really is beyond me. And I refuse to believe that playing tabletop games causes addition.


The problem is that it's the miniatures game with the highest market penetration, and not due to any good quality of the game itself. There are better games out there, but not as many people play them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 23:51:47


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
For Daedalus.

Have you had any more success crunching the dataset to see subfaction popularity and splits?

I think you were saying it was difficult.


Not quite there yet. My truck blew up on me so I fell a little behind dealing with that, but perhaps the next day or two I can have it sorted.

   
 
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