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Slipspace wrote:
You're still projecting your own ideas here though, not actually taking what I said into account. My suggestion never said, nor implied, "make PM units 75 points base". There are a lot of options between the current 105-point, bare bones unit and the proposed 105-point take-everything unit.

What would that solution be?

One thing people seem to be doing is asserting that the value of a power fist, blight launcher, etc was truly worth 10 points when it's more like they should have been 5 points before now. I get a nice bolter, a sorcerer, and all is dust for the same base price. We could probably debate the merits of -1D on a W2 model for a while so I won't bother with that.

And if weapons were 5 points they still probably wouldn't beat out the rest of the codex, because 2+ W3 -1D is a lot more difficult to tackle than 3+ W2 -1D.

So what is something DG struggle with? Ranged output, right? If you made PMs 2 or 3 points cheaper would that encourage taking plasma? Probably not. Plasma on 22 to 26 point models necessitates a baby sitter, which is even more cost. If Plasma was free people would probably take it, but then you strand all the other weapon options so they need to be free as well.

This doesn't mean there isn't choice. Some people will opt for plasma and rerolls. Others might decide Terminus Est melta is the way to go. The accompanying melee weapons each have enough distinction that you can make a case for taking a variety.

Most of the options for the Helbrute are free and the paid ones are mostly yuck, but that doesn't stop me from having different viable loadouts.

Any time a change is made that makes any specific model that has been glued together by a person on dakka worse, that person will rage into the night, because they have built *exactly* 2000 points worth of that army and will never, EVER have extra models with different loadouts, and it would be ANTI-CONSUMER to suggest that their particular 2000 point build might not be optimal for eternity.

Between the new points drops and the new balance sheet I've already seen yt videos claiming that necrons are now 'broken' which seems to mean they may have a close to 50% chance of winning more often.

As is I have to switch from an Indy dynasty to Szarekhan because having undying legion in both mode on all the time is clearly too good to pass up.

Tyel wrote:
I think its safe to say making Plague Marines cheaper than Tactical Marines/Legionaires would be a weird choice.

I think there's an argument they could have tried making Plague Marines 19/20 points - and making most of the special weapons 5 points cheaper. (So Belchers/Plasma Pistols/axes free, plasma/blight launchers/flails etc 5 points etc). But I think this method works too.

I guess we'll see if people start slowly advancing 60~ blinged out Plague Marines down the table.

They could have just made each weapon option cost 1 point. It would have made the people who want things to cost happy and would make those options viable and useable for Death Guard players.

Because the problem is that at 5-10 points a weapon you still have a slow moving infantry that mostly has close combat weapons if you go for a 10 man squad. Which does result in almost every single faction having the capacity to outplay against it meaning that those 5-10 point upgrades being useless and a burden. I've been playing Death Guard since late 8th and Plague Marines have been more or less of a burden with each upgrade a liability. It is why poxwalkers were the preferred troop choice.

I do expect an increase in Plague Marines use but that is a good thing since almost no one has been using them for Hel knows how long. In fact I foresee people going infantry heavy with Plague Marines, Blight Lords, and Death Shrouds with a few poxwalkers in and maybe running Terminus Est type forces. So in general I think it is positive from going from 0 use to actual use.

I want to iterate that Plague Marines are not Aeldari. They do not have super movement speed and shenanigans so if you can't outmaneuver them you are probably playing Death Guard yourself.

Agentdenton wrote:
Between the new points drops and the new balance sheet I've already seen yt videos claiming that necrons are now 'broken' which seems to mean they may have a close to 50% chance of winning more often.

As is I have to switch from an Indy dynasty to Szarekhan because having undying legion in both mode on all the time is clearly too good to pass up.

I hope they aren't busted. Necrons were upset that Warriors, DDAs, etc didn't get point drops, but then we get the slate that revealed why. Biggest problem is probably SK being way too hard to pass up. We'll probably also see a lot more Ctan, too. Overall the changes don't make Necrons noticeably tougher so responding to them should be the same ( mostly ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They could have just made each weapon option cost 1 point.

Eh. 1 point is nearly 0 when you're adding it to something that is 21.

With all the changes to objectives, CP, missions, points and Dataslate, it is pretty much impossible to accurately predict the new meta.

So we have to wait and see what works and what doesn't in the next tournament results.

 Daedalus81 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They could have just made each weapon option cost 1 point.

Eh. 1 point is nearly 0 when you're adding it to something that is 21.

True true. It would have been a more symbolic gesture than anything else.

Quasistellar wrote:
Any time a change is made that makes any specific model that has been glued together by a person on dakka worse, that person will rage into the night, because they have built *exactly* 2000 points worth of that army and will never, EVER have extra models with different loadouts, and it would be ANTI-CONSUMER to suggest that their particular 2000 point build might not be optimal for eternity.

It is anti-consumer to suggest that their particular 2000 point build being trash 90% of the time is okay assuming the build isn't deliberately bad. It is anti-consumer to suggest that it is okay for someone to have 10000 points and only be able to make trash lists.

Agentdenton wrote:
Between the new points drops and the new balance sheet I've already seen yt videos claiming that necrons are now 'broken' which seems to mean they may have a close to 50% chance of winning more often.

As is I have to switch from an Indy dynasty to Szarekhan because having undying legion in both mode on all the time is clearly too good to pass up.

And herein lies the fundamental problem that Necrons have faced for over a decade now and it's why they are almost always bad. Along with Eldar, Necrons appear to be one of the harder factions to tune correctly but unlike Eldar, GW tend to er on the side of underpowered is better. Hence whenever there's an update, new rule or new Necron unit that threatens to upturn the apple cart, there is a massive outcry from (mostly Imperium) players, outlining why this cannot be allowed and the nerfs soon follow. I will never, ever forget the seething and bluster about the Nightbringer almost two years ago, with no statistical evidence to back up the claims of "OP" - leading to an already overcosted model becoming even more expensive. If Necrons have a 55% or better win rate in the next 6 months, expect the nerf bat to come back around after endless complaining. This community is toxic and the game will never be healthy as long as that is the case.

It is not toxic. It is being a realist. No one wants their army be weak or nerfed in other, others can have armies that are good and fun to play. The gap between the top and the bottom, in both editions I saw, is huge. And I suspect the situation was no different in the past.
A lot of people are shoting for 3-6 months of fun every few editions, with exeption of eldar players. And this means they aren't very keen or losing 2-3 months of fun, because of supposed needed balance, when everyone knows that next books will not be that.

GW killed in codex soups, mixng subfactions etc. What is the next thing they do? They give eldar an option to go around that.
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions, the first things that happen to non marines is getting more and more options to kill 2W models with +3sv. etc etc.

Balanced especialy internaly, mid tier etc Could be another name for bad. This gets even worse in the prospect of non marine armies that have to wait , sometimes years, to get an update, and the update doesn't even have to be good. CSM are waiting for a good codex since what 4th ed? I hope they get it in 10th. People that started the game when chaos was good and fun to play last time, are close to my dads age.

Daemons, nids, knights, inquisition and assassins also "got a way to get around that".

In essence GW is going back to the traditional allies that have existed for most of 40k's history but kept the option of allying in anything remotely on the same side at the cost of special rules.

Which kind of is how it should have been from the start.

If they want to do, they should do in a new edition. Because it is bad to design books with sub faction soups in mind, then revert the possibility only to added it back to later factions.

Who said they designed the books with Subfaction Soup in mind? Just because everyone sees that advantage of doing that doesn't mean GW play-tested or intended that to be the way people used the books.

EightFoldPath wrote:

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

My initial reaction is this was GW screwing up rather than intentionally giving ork Kustom jobz away for free.

At the same time though...literally all the vehicle upgrades are crap so..... yeah, don't know. As an example, you can give a Battlewagon the "Shokka Hull" for 15pts, what does that do? if you target it in melee on a 4+ you suffer D3 mortal wounds....doesn't really sound worth 15pts...more like 5.

Squig Hide Tyres: 15pts on the wagon, what does it do? +1' movement and +2' advance. Can't charge afterwards, even during waaagh turns. So at most 3' extra movement, worth 15pts on a 105pt model? Not really...more like 5.

More Dakka: 30pts on the wagon, what does it do? every time you shoot roll a D6, on a 4+ you get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons (big shootas only) on a 6+ you get 2 extra shots. On a roll of a 6 this gives the tricked out battlewagon a grand total of.....8 extra big shoota shots Not even worth 1pt let alone 30.

Fortress on Wheels: 20pts on the wagon, what does it do? 5+ invuln on the wagon. Not bad, but not worth 20pts. For 10 its worth taking, 20 its just forgettable.

There are a host of other upgrades but they pretty much follow the above trend, over priced for small benefits. Tie that in with the fact that it can't be used on squadrons and that a vehicle can only have 1 kustom job and actually...yeah, I think them being free would be fine, maybe make it limited to 1 per detachment.

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

SemperMortis wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

My initial reaction is this was GW screwing up rather than intentionally giving ork Kustom jobz away for free.

At the same time though...literally all the vehicle upgrades are crap so..... yeah, don't know. As an example, you can give a Battlewagon the "Shokka Hull" for 15pts, what does that do? if you target it in melee on a 4+ you suffer D3 mortal wounds....doesn't really sound worth 15pts...more like 5.

Squig Hide Tyres: 15pts on the wagon, what does it do? +1' movement and +2' advance. Can't charge afterwards, even during waaagh turns. So at most 3' extra movement, worth 15pts on a 105pt model? Not really...more like 5.

More Dakka: 30pts on the wagon, what does it do? every time you shoot roll a D6, on a 4+ you get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons (big shootas only) on a 6+ you get 2 extra shots. On a roll of a 6 this gives the tricked out battlewagon a grand total of.....8 extra big shoota shots Not even worth 1pt let alone 30.

Fortress on Wheels: 20pts on the wagon, what does it do? 5+ invuln on the wagon. Not bad, but not worth 20pts. For 10 its worth taking, 20 its just forgettable.

There are a host of other upgrades but they pretty much follow the above trend, over priced for small benefits. Tie that in with the fact that it can't be used on squadrons and that a vehicle can only have 1 kustom job and actually...yeah, I think them being free would be fine, maybe make it limited to 1 per detachment.

Pts debate aside, have you considered that you might be using (or theorizing about using) these upgrades on the wrong units?
Or that you look at this stuff too seriously (see More Dakka below)?

Here's what I use them on:

*Squig Tires - I put these on a truck.
That trucks main job is to scoot across the table as fast as possible to a key location & off-load it's passengers (obsec grots - because I play a grot army).
It does NOT have to do this turn 1, just at the right moment.
If it's not doing it on turn 1? Then it's scooting into some out-of-los spot & lurking. Waiting for the right moment.
I generally don't WANT it charging anything.
I often play the force as Evil Sunz.
Truck mv + kulture + squig tires + advance roll? That's one fast truck....

*Fortress on Wheels - I put this on a truck full of obsec grots.
A 5++ isn't great, and I'd gladly pay less pts for it, but it's kept that truck/those grots alive in enough games to have earned a permanent place in my list (and a dedicated bitz on the model).
This is also the truck Makari rides around in.

*Shokka Hull - I've recently played around putting this on a Grot Mega-Tank.
It is amazing how much hate 2/3 of my Mega tanks attract. They've each been charged numerous times. Fine, if you're going to punch me to death I'm going to try & get as much payback as possible....
In matched I put it on the tank I've kitted with all rokkits (people seem to really dislike the # of rokkits this thing can throw)
In Crusade I put it on the one I've kitted with all KMB. Because thematically. It takes alot of juice to power all those blastas. What do you think should happen if you punch a rolling reactor?? "Bzzzzzt!"
Fun? Yes. Worth the pts/PL being spent on it? "Eh".

*More Dakka! - this goes on my 3rd Mega-Tank.
The one I've equipped with all big shootas.
When it works I get alot more Dakka than your wagon.
Fun? Yes. Effective? Kind of(?) If judged based solely on efficiency I'd give it a thumbs down at the current cost.
BUT.... there's also no other upgrade more appropriate for a scratch built MT mounting a captured/salvaged "Endless Fury" relic cannon looted from a Knight the Grots took down a few weeks back.
And it's amused everyone playing everytime I've put it on the table.
Sometimes fun/theme can trump efficiency.
So pts/PL permitting....

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

Imagine that you're in an on-line gaming environment, especially in environments where you get a few points for a game each day and build up points for rewards. In that sort of situation it becomes easy to stop thinking about the other player as a human being. In that sort of context, "farming" is just the repeated performance of a task (or even an entire game) to gather victory points. Especially common with "farming" is the connotation that the repeated task is simple and routine, and only worth doing because of the eventual larger reward.

SemperMortis wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

My initial reaction is this was GW screwing up rather than intentionally giving ork Kustom jobz away for free.

At the same time though...literally all the vehicle upgrades are crap so..... yeah, don't know. As an example, you can give a Battlewagon the "Shokka Hull" for 15pts, what does that do? if you target it in melee on a 4+ you suffer D3 mortal wounds....doesn't really sound worth 15pts...more like 5.

Squig Hide Tyres: 15pts on the wagon, what does it do? +1' movement and +2' advance. Can't charge afterwards, even during waaagh turns. So at most 3' extra movement, worth 15pts on a 105pt model? Not really...more like 5.

More Dakka: 30pts on the wagon, what does it do? every time you shoot roll a D6, on a 4+ you get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons (big shootas only) on a 6+ you get 2 extra shots. On a roll of a 6 this gives the tricked out battlewagon a grand total of.....8 extra big shoota shots Not even worth 1pt let alone 30.

Fortress on Wheels: 20pts on the wagon, what does it do? 5+ invuln on the wagon. Not bad, but not worth 20pts. For 10 its worth taking, 20 its just forgettable.

There are a host of other upgrades but they pretty much follow the above trend, over priced for small benefits. Tie that in with the fact that it can't be used on squadrons and that a vehicle can only have 1 kustom job and actually...yeah, I think them being free would be fine, maybe make it limited to 1 per detachment.

To be honest, most of those kustom jobs would be auto take if they cost 5 or 10 points.

Forktress is 20 points on top on a 135 wagon (assuming rolla and 'ard case). It doesn't seem crazy to pay 20 points for a 5++, in fact I always give it to a wagon, at 10 it would be auto take.

Squig Hide Tyres I usually don't bother, but at 5 it would also be auto take.

Shokka Hull is wasted on a wagon, give it to a deffkilla wartrike instead. Like Forktress it's a legit option as it is, it would be auto take at 5.

More Dakka is the trickiest one since it's the less useful. On a wagon it's completely wasted and it's still too expensive at 15 on cheaper vehicles but on a Boomdakka Snazzwagon or a Dakkajet and probably on a Scrapjet too it would be auto take at 5, let alone 1.

The real awful Kustom Jobs are Da Booma (standard gun on the cheaper FW battlewagon is better), Red Rolla (adds only 1.5 attacks on average and only on the worst kind of wagon), Bionic Oiler (grot oiler is already useless, using him twice doesn't change anything), Smoky Gubbinz (seriously? I won't even comment this ). Many other kustom jobs might be too expensive but still they can have a niche in casual games at least. Those horrible four could simply disappear and no one would even notice .

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

Look how marine armies looked before 2.0 codex in 8th ed. The way to build a marine lists was, to take as few marines as possible. Troops? scouts, because they are cheapest. obligatory HQs, and then as many points as you can in armies which are actualy good. Loyal 32 was the norm, or later its ad mecha version. When knights got their book, the building of a marine army looked like this. Castellan, loyal 32 and then lets see how many left over points we have to run smash hammer 2HQ. Meanwhile and eldar player was building an eldar army or a Inari army with the same models. CSM were the same way. csm were so bad, that taking them over cultists was foolish. And lets not even go in to how DW or GK were in 8th. Marine players were required to build tournament lists to play outside of tournaments. Which ment they were getting farmed, aka they were made to play games they could not win.

Karol wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

Look how marine armies looked before 2.0 codex in 8th ed. The way to build a marine lists was, to take as few marines as possible. Troops? scouts, because they are cheapest. obligatory HQs, and then as many points as you can in armies which are actualy good. Loyal 32 was the norm, or later its ad mecha version. When knights got their book, the building of a marine army looked like this. Castellan, loyal 32 and then lets see how many left over points we have to run smash hammer 2HQ. Meanwhile and eldar player was building an eldar army or a Inari army with the same models. CSM were the same way. csm were so bad, that taking them over cultists was foolish. And lets not even go in to how DW or GK were in 8th. Marine players were required to build tournament lists to play outside of tournaments. Which ment they were getting farmed, aka they were made to play games they could not win.

How does this relate the the current edition?