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I am discovering list building in the new codex is a tad tricky. This is where I am at so far:

Black Legion, 1998pts, Starting CP: 3

HQ: Abaddon (1CP for Warlord Traits), Master of Possession (Pact of Flesh, Mutated Invigoration), Dark Apostle (Illusionary Supplication, 1CP The Black Mace)

Troops: 10 autogun Cultists, 10 Chainsword Legionaries (Power Axe, Mark/Icon of Khorne), 5 Bolter Legionaries (Chaincannon, Mark/Icon of Tzeentch, Tome: Diabolic Strength)

Elites: 10 Chaos Terminators (2 Power Fist, Mark of Nurgle, 1 CP Black Rune)

Fast Attack: Vemoncrawler, 5 Warp Talons

Heavy Support: Forgefiend (autocannons, ecto-jaws), 2 Obilerators, Havocs (4 Chaincannons)

The idea is I have a two pronged spear with Abaddon and the Chainsword Legionaries and the MoP, Dark Apostle, Terminators and Vemoncrawler for the other. With the Legionaries being more a meat shield for the Warmaster to get where I want him. While the Terminator squad is heavily supported by the other characters.

The Warp Talons are there to give me early game territory control, or if still around, late game scrambling. With the possibility of deep striking if I think that is warranted. Ultimately, much of the rest of my army is slow, so I wanted a bit of speed.

For back line/home objective campers/ action monkeys, I have the cultists and 5 Legionaries squad. With the Legionaries able to buff or put out a bit of shooting if needed. However, this army is set up for a strong push toward the enemy, and I definitely see it having a weakness to deep strike.

Which I have Forgefiend, Havocs to kinda defend, but they are also likely to be mid-field. The Obliterators are my Anti-tank/heavy infantry flex unit. Though, I fully admit, this list does seem light on AT.

I never one was for making use of Marks/Icons. So I think I am doing a poor job applying them here. I figure since I have 10 marine squads, it's fine giving adding them. However, part of me thinks those 5 Tzeentch Legionaries are more points than they'll be worth. Which I have a bad habit of adding too many upgrades in general.

As mentioned, I think this army has a real weakness in being slow. Which I hope can be made up in it being flexible and able for units to work independent of each other. It's also a little more melee focused than I'd like, but that appears to be where the CSM power is.

 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.

Trying to think of a good way to run iron warriors. I think leaning into the durability of the faction is the way to go rather than the shooting itself which I don't think chaos is particularly brilliant at.

A large terminator brick in the middle of the table with bastion applied from the warlord (probably a dark apostle) who could then use illusory supplication on them as well would make them incredibly tough. Then I think MSU combat units running toward the enemy and threatening them could work.
Units like warp talons, chosen and Vernon crawlers all pack a punch and are relatively cheap, using these guys to push into the enemy while the terminators chill in the middle of the board could get some points on the board.

It's very tempting to just run black legion but I want to find a way to run IW without a LOS

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.

Blood Angel Thunder Hammer Death Company wound T4 MoN Terminators on 2s but wound T4 MoN Rune Terminators on 3s. Another faction with +1 to wound all over the place we hope will be seeing a lot of play... CSM.

EightFoldPath wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.

Blood Angel Thunder Hammer Death Company wound T4 MoN Terminators on 2s but wound T4 MoN Rune Terminators on 3s. Another faction with +1 to wound all over the place we hope will be seeing a lot of play... CSM.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Was looking at a rather nice combo with a Dark Apostle - take Exalted Possession, Ul'ro'cca and Omen of Potency and you have a 9 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2, with each wound causing an automatic MW which isn't bad for 95pts. If you can get Soultearer Portent off then he'll be wounding MEQ on 2+ as well.

Probably not the best combo in the book but I doubt you can get better for his points.

Kind of like how with some investment, you can make an absolutely murder beast out of a Master of Executions as well which is just 65 points (but still glass cannon). This is also why Abaddon literally feels like overkill since lots of characters can be made super killy. (I am still trying to think of how best to use Abaddon though).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KirvesUK wrote:
Hi all. Had my 2nd game with my new World Eaters last night. First game, smashed the living daylights out of T'au..last night got pummeled by Necrons.
A few observations echoing previous points.
A) Abaddon cuts through enemy units with easy, almost making his 9 terminator mates redundant.
B) against someone who screens well, Abaddon and his mates are a absolutely huge investment that is somewhat left sitting in a corner of a battlefield saying 'ok, killed the enemy, now what can I do?'
C) Berserkers still die to decent overwatch, we could do with some help shutting that down as World Eater faction
D) dread claw drop pod is worth taking in my opinion, it's served me well twice and possibly worth adding another and dumping my Rhino for it
E) Obliterators aren't living up to their stats on paper, I'm not finding them actually achieving much at all

If you guys had a melee army, would you double-down on melee after getting smashed, or try and add some heavy shooting? A Knight instead of Abaddon for mobility?

A) Same observation. Abaddon alone gets the job done, anything else with him is just literally tagging along.
B) Yup. I ran into this as well. Once you pen and screen out Abaddon, he and his friends are a massive investment that overkills but can't do much else, while moving 5 to 6 inches.
C) and D) no experience, can't comment.
E) I find their shooting underwhelming for their points. Roll a 1 for the big anti tank shot and miss... feels bad. I used single obliterator to shoot the warphail at a 10 man squad of infantry, and failed to even wipe the squad ... Feels bad. And there is really no way to boost their fire power. They are tanky, but a smart opponent can literally just ignore them because they just don't shoot well enough to be theatening. I am using one single obliterator to deep strike in, as a cheap, small footprint deep striker that will cause problems in the backline or against vehicles. But this all depends on them making their charge from deep strike. Ah well.

On mobility, I would try out all of our existing options within our codex before looking at adding other codex allies because command points are precious these days. CSM has a lot of mobile units that can hit hard as well. For shooting, I seriously don't know. I am going to try out Lord of skulls for sure. For me, that's probably the most shooty model we have now. Its just that it works best in a IW legion.

I tried out the new twin soulshatter cannons on predator (I didn't bring the lascannon sponsons because I feel that those are too expensive). The damage is nice, but you still need to get the shot through and AP3 is no longer a sure thing in the armor of contempt world we live in now. Even a Rhino gets a 5+ save against that. Its great when it gets through, but its basically all down to the RNG gods. Can you hit and wound, and can your opponent fail his save... lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I am discovering list building in the new codex is a tad tricky. This is where I am at so far:

As mentioned, I think this army has a real weakness in being slow. Which I hope can be made up in it being flexible and able for units to work independent of each other. It's also a little more melee focused than I'd like, but that appears to be where the CSM power is.

We need to make sure we take all three of our fast attack slots I feel. Most of the units in our fast attack are very mobile. Also, given we have so many options in power armor, I feel that at least one Rhino is almost mandatory and even two Rhinos isn't a bad idea. We also need to use warptime and advance as much as we can.

I actually think at this stage that if we bring Abaddon, then he is the best target in our list for warptime. Charge up fast mobile units and/or a Rhino with power armor troops in it, then have Abaddon also advance and then move again with warptime so he has a 12+d6 move to keep up with the mobile units. This assumes though that he didn't get move blocked with a cheap screen.

Abaddon warptime onto a midboard objective along with a Rhino with power armor troops in it presents an interesting problem to opponents. The Rhino will absorb psychic mortals and some shooting. And then the power armor troops with armor of contempt inside spill out and give look out sir to Abaddon. Even if they clear through all that, and then charge Abaddon, he still can't die. And then he will hit back and kill whatever charged him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Trying to think of a good way to run iron warriors. I think leaning into the durability of the faction is the way to go rather than the shooting itself which I don't think chaos is particularly brilliant at.

A large terminator brick in the middle of the table with bastion applied from the warlord (probably a dark apostle) who could then use illusory supplication on them as well would make them incredibly tough. Then I think MSU combat units running toward the enemy and threatening them could work.
Units like warp talons, chosen and Vernon crawlers all pack a punch and are relatively cheap, using these guys to push into the enemy while the terminators chill in the middle of the board could get some points on the board.

It's very tempting to just run black legion but I want to find a way to run IW without a LOS

Yeah, our CSM codex just isn't that great in shooting (maybe a LOS can do it? jury is still out, I need to try out that out). Maybe if we spammed 6 squads of noise marines with blast masters then the shooting would be good. But its a very specific sort of build that is again best in one specific legion (Emperor's Children). Not to mention getting that many noise marines would be a pain at this point.

BTW, has anyone tried Abaddon with a unit of power armour in a Land Raider. Maybe even put in a master of executions in there as well. The LR moves them up the board 10 inches. Gives them protection. And shoots 4 soulshatter lascannons. Then turn 2, they can literally go disembark and move 9 inches in three different directions from the center of the board before making their charges. It sounds interesting in theory. I haven't tried it out. And of course, its a lot of points concentrated into one Land Raider. lol

At the extreme, you can squeeze Abaddon, 3 masters of execution and one power armor squad into the Land Raider and we now have 5 different units that can burst out of the Land Raider in 5 different directions. lol

No Power Armor is worth that space besides Possessed.

I'm legit scratching my head at the supposed role of Chosen vs just taking Terminators or Possessed. The Wanton ability is just legit not worth it I don't think.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.

Yes, i can. I can use it to negate +1 to wound. The result is still -1 to wound.

Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

So, perhaps, if we run Abaddon we need to give him a slightly cheaper bodyguard? Maybe with 5 Possessed? Although they are faster than him.

I don't own a Lord of Skulls, or I would happily try it out, but I was looking for an excuse to buy a Brass Scorpion. Either way, I guess we are saying that shooting support is still required in a Melee focused army.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.

Does Black Legion get +1 to hit in overwatch? If chargin enemy is the closest eligible enemy unit? (Black Crusaders Legion trait)

BL looks good for shooting army. Also when shooting in combat (pistols, vehicles)

 xeen wrote:
Terminators was all accused weapons and bolters. Weight of dice is a thing with 40 attacks. Also they had -1 to wound relic and tzeentch.

The -1 to wound relic I saw was Cultist unit only, was there another one I missed?

Edit: Nevermind, I read that as Cultist only.

 Xyxel wrote:
Does Black Legion get +1 to hit in overwatch? If chargin enemy is the closest eligible enemy unit? (Black Crusaders Legion trait)

BL looks good for shooting army. Also when shooting in combat (pistols, vehicles)

It would grant a +1 to-hit (I think), but Overwatch only hits on 6s unless a rule specifically modifies it. Which the BL Trait does not, to my knowledge.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Terminators was all accused weapons and bolters. Weight of dice is a thing with 40 attacks. Also they had -1 to wound relic and tzeentch.

The -1 to wound relic I saw was Cultist unit only, was there another one I missed?

Edit: Nevermind, I read that as Cultist only.

It isn't cultist only, it just specifies a cultist model can take it.

 Zeruel13 wrote:
It isn't cultist only, it just specifies a cultist model can take it.

Yeah, that's pretty much auto-include, especially for a big block of Terminators. With Feculent Beseechment S1-5 is wounding on 6s and everything else is wounding on 4+ if I read that right with Mark of Nurgle.

So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

So, perhaps, if we run Abaddon we need to give him a slightly cheaper bodyguard? Maybe with 5 Possessed? Although they are faster than him.

I don't own a Lord of Skulls, or I would happily try it out, but I was looking for an excuse to buy a Brass Scorpion. Either way, I guess we are saying that shooting support is still required in a Melee focused army.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.

Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.

Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.

Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.

The two relics on the same character is a new thing in the CSM codex. You can put two relics on one character provided one of them is a relic weapon. And this includes turning one of their existing weapons into a relic daemon weapon.

Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). Some of the armies out there who are using mostly melta or Str 8 on their anti-tank weapons will need 5s to wound the Land Raider. And armor of contempt means they are effectively 1+ save against a weapon with AP1 or higher. They get a 4+ save even against a lascannon's AP3 and 5+ against metla AP4. Even without defensive buffs, a lot of armies may struggle to kill a LR in the first round. There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.

Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.

The two relics on the same character is a new thing in the CSM codex. You can put two relics on one character provided one of them is a relic weapon. And this includes turning one of their existing weapons into a relic daemon weapon.

Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). Some of the armies out there who are using mostly melta or Str 8 on their anti-tank weapons will need 5s to wound the Land Raider. And armor of contempt means they are effectively 1+ save against a weapon with AP1 or higher. They get a 4+ save even against a lascannon's AP3 and 5+ against metla AP4. Even without defensive buffs, a lot of armies may struggle to kill a LR in the first round. There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.

Well, that opens up a lot of possibilities. That means I can have a durable AND deadly warlord. Let's see how crazy I can make my IW DP, Discolord and Termie Lord. Although with the Axe of the Forge Master, Insidium and the Warpsmith datasheet I think I can finally turn him into a proper Warsmith instead of just a generic Lord.

As for the LR: yeah I know it has T9, which is very nice. I still have trouble believing it'll be able to withstand a round of AT fire from the average 2k army though... but maybe that's just me still being used to 8e flimsiness, I must admit I haven't been able to play a single game ever since COVID started.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.

Personally I wouldn't go Rune + MoN, but if you do on a CORE unit like terminators you have a spell and a prayer that both can add +1T to the unit, so you can do some toughness manipulation in the one game per five where -2 to wound would matter.

I've not tried it yet, as I'm in the build stage, but if Terminators and Possessed are durable enough without the Rune, that opens up taking Terminators and Possessed and then also taking either Bikers or Chosen and putting the Rune on them. Reading the strategem to give the relic, you need to have a non character TRAITORIS ASTARTES model with Aspiring or Champion in the name which does seem to open it up to putting on a Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerer or a Plague Marine Plague Champion. So, IF terminators/possessed are tanky enough and IF bikers/chosen/rubrics/plagues are worth taking, maybe you put the Rune there.

Dumb question - if I put a unit into all 3 wanton do they get two explosions on a 6 for Rapid Fire?

No. Only one.

EightFoldPath wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.

Personally I wouldn't go Rune + MoN, but if you do on a CORE unit like terminators you have a spell and a prayer that both can add +1T to the unit, so you can do some toughness manipulation in the one game per five where -2 to wound would matter.

I've not tried it yet, as I'm in the build stage, but if Terminators and Possessed are durable enough without the Rune, that opens up taking Terminators and Possessed and then also taking either Bikers or Chosen and putting the Rune on them. Reading the strategem to give the relic, you need to have a non character TRAITORIS ASTARTES model with Aspiring or Champion in the name which does seem to open it up to putting on a Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerer or a Plague Marine Plague Champion. So, IF terminators/possessed are tanky enough and IF bikers/chosen/rubrics/plagues are worth taking, maybe you put the Rune there.

I also think that MoN on the terminators with the Rune is a waste. I like Tzeentch a lot for it. The damage 0 thing has been really helpful in that it makes your opponent shoot at the terminators to try to strip it with small arms (which they usually tank so absorbing damage what would be more efficient elsewhere) or it just tanks a high damage high strength shot.

I am playing tomorrow and I am actually going to try the new Vindicator and see if it is any good. Also I am taking Word Bearers with a Lord Disco with the Undivided daemon weapon, and flames of spite. First round re-roll hits, then re-roll wounds, then his 6 main attacks do mortals just for wounding, plus mortals on 6's then all the other attacks re-roll hits and wounds and do mortals on 6. With the tendrils I plan on re-rolling all wound rolls that are not a 6 fishing for them (I am playing marines so St4 with 0 ap is not likely to hurt them so no waste on normal wounds).

 p5freak wrote:
No. Only one.

Why do you think so? They're all distinct so if they're all on they should all trigger? What am I missing?

Annoyingly I'm away for the next week or so with work so I'm just theory crafting here but I think we need to approach the game in the manner that blood angels do. Don't charge straight at the enemy but look for the turn 3 charge. Turn 1 and 2 use stuff like Havoc's, dreads and tanks to keep the enemy busy from range while our elite infantry hugs the cover and gets into position.
Of course the enemy needs some pressure units coming at then too to make them panic (venom crawlers I'm looking at you)

Going to take some getting used to but I'm looking forward to trying it.

 xeen wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.

Personally I wouldn't go Rune + MoN, but if you do on a CORE unit like terminators you have a spell and a prayer that both can add +1T to the unit, so you can do some toughness manipulation in the one game per five where -2 to wound would matter.

I've not tried it yet, as I'm in the build stage, but if Terminators and Possessed are durable enough without the Rune, that opens up taking Terminators and Possessed and then also taking either Bikers or Chosen and putting the Rune on them. Reading the strategem to give the relic, you need to have a non character TRAITORIS ASTARTES model with Aspiring or Champion in the name which does seem to open it up to putting on a Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerer or a Plague Marine Plague Champion. So, IF terminators/possessed are tanky enough and IF bikers/chosen/rubrics/plagues are worth taking, maybe you put the Rune there.

I also think that MoN on the terminators with the Rune is a waste. I like Tzeentch a lot for it. The damage 0 thing has been really helpful in that it makes your opponent shoot at the terminators to try to strip it with small arms (which they usually tank so absorbing damage what would be more efficient elsewhere) or it just tanks a high damage high strength shot.

I am playing tomorrow and I am actually going to try the new Vindicator and see if it is any good. Also I am taking Word Bearers with a Lord Disco with the Undivided daemon weapon, and flames of spite. First round re-roll hits, then re-roll wounds, then his 6 main attacks do mortals just for wounding, plus mortals on 6's then all the other attacks re-roll hits and wounds and do mortals on 6. With the tendrils I plan on re-rolling all wound rolls that are not a 6 fishing for them (I am playing marines so St4 with 0 ap is not likely to hurt them so no waste on normal wounds).

I feel quite the opposite. I feel like generally you are only going to be mitigating 1 wound a turn. No one is going to shoot anything worthwhile into the unit until the mark proc is gone likely. I feel like going from bolters wounding you on 5s to 6s or Fists/Monsters going from 3s to 4s to be much more significant. You also get access to being affected by -1 hit spell instead of the 4+ invul spell.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dumb question - if I put a unit into all 3 wanton do they get two explosions on a 6 for Rapid Fire?

Unfortunately the codex does spell out that this doesn't work as a footnote in the let the galaxy burn section - if it did work it would make the Chosen's ability actually kind of good as it would affect only their limited access to special guns (melee weapons only being in one wanton section anyway).

 Insularum wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dumb question - if I put a unit into all 3 wanton do they get two explosions on a 6 for Rapid Fire?

Unfortunately the codex does spell out that this doesn't work as a footnote in the let the galaxy burn section - if it did work it would make the Chosen's ability actually kind of good as it would affect only their limited access to special guns (melee weapons only being in one wanton section anyway).

It's weird how I was mentally blind to the big white box. Thanks for the help!

Pandabeer wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.

Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.

Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.

Well, that opens up a lot of possibilities. That means I can have a durable AND deadly warlord. Let's see how crazy I can make my IW DP, Discolord and Termie Lord. Although with the Axe of the Forge Master, Insidium and the Warpsmith datasheet I think I can finally turn him into a proper Warsmith instead of just a generic Lord.

As for the LR: yeah I know it has T9, which is very nice. I still have trouble believing it'll be able to withstand a round of AT fire from the average 2k army though... but maybe that's just me still being used to 8e flimsiness, I must admit I haven't been able to play a single game ever since COVID started.

Oh, you are playing Iron Warriors? That's even better. The Iron Warriors legion trait is ignore cover and enemy cannot reroll wounds against you (In the balance dataslate). And this includes all your vehicles too! So, if his anti tank gun fails to wound your T9 land raider, he can't even reroll it! Iron Warrior's Land Raiders are extra hard to bring down!

Does other half of the iron warriors trait do anything currently or does it conflict with AOC?

Well looky what just showed up in the mail...

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Does other half of the iron warriors trait do anything currently or does it conflict with AOC?

It has been changed in the dataslate. It is no longer that because AOC already does that. It has been changed in the balance dataslate to enemy cannot reroll wounds against you.