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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I seriously thought it was a rule that no stats or ingame performance be used on this sub forum. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

As to your point regarding their level of "modification" that's like saying a Ford Fiesta is the same as a Maserati F1 race car because they "doors and wheels". The fact that the assassins have modifications is not in question. It's the state to which those modifications allow them to perform. A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy, including heavy vehicles. It's never been revealed except in the barest rumors and head canon what assassins are capable of. We don't know if the Exitus Rifle needs to be re-tooled after every 13th shot, or if Executioner rounds literally make the weapon impossible to fire after 3 shots. We don't know if "bio-meltdown" takes 10-20 seconds, or if it's instantaneous. We don't know if the Calladius needs time to shift form, or if doing it multiple times quickly causes them to literally turn to goo. We do know that a single squad Custodians were literally capable of taking on and defeating a Chaos band in one of the new DoW books, essentially without support. We know that a single group with a band of sisters stormed and killed almost the entire heretic astartes crew of a Battleship. We know that they are capable of defeating blood thirsters, and Daemon princes.

I feel like you are just doing this to hate on a single faction.

It's your own admission that the capabilities described in novels are all over the place. And even a single human can be a match for heavy vehicles with some well placed Meltabombs.

And it has been revealed what Assassins are capable of, in multiple games and for 25+ years. Assassins are heavily modified humans capable of going toe-to-toe with Space Marine Captains. I'm not hating on a faction (although Custodes are the Mary-Suiest of the Mary-Sues it seems), I'm just looking at the data.

And this: "A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy". Given that most things in the Galaxy are Orks, Necrons, Gaunts and Humans, sure. So what are we talking here? A Custodes should beat a Bloodthirster in a 1v1 duel?

 Insectum7 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I seriously thought it was a rule that no stats or ingame performance be used on this sub forum. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

As to your point regarding their level of "modification" that's like saying a Ford Fiesta is the same as a Maserati F1 race car because they "doors and wheels". The fact that the assassins have modifications is not in question. It's the state to which those modifications allow them to perform. A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy, including heavy vehicles. It's never been revealed except in the barest rumors and head canon what assassins are capable of. We don't know if the Exitus Rifle needs to be re-tooled after every 13th shot, or if Executioner rounds literally make the weapon impossible to fire after 3 shots. We don't know if "bio-meltdown" takes 10-20 seconds, or if it's instantaneous. We don't know if the Calladius needs time to shift form, or if doing it multiple times quickly causes them to literally turn to goo. We do know that a single squad Custodians were literally capable of taking on and defeating a Chaos band in one of the new DoW books, essentially without support. We know that a single group with a band of sisters stormed and killed almost the entire heretic astartes crew of a Battleship. We know that they are capable of defeating blood thirsters, and Daemon princes.

I feel like you are just doing this to hate on a single faction.

It's your own admission that the capabilities described in novels are all over the place. And even a single human can be a match for heavy vehicles with some well placed Meltabombs.

And it has been revealed what Assassins are capable of, in multiple games and for 25+ years. Assassins are heavily modified humans capable of going toe-to-toe with Space Marine Captains. I'm not hating on a faction (although Custodes are the Mary-Suiest of the Mary-Sues it seems), I'm just looking at the data.

And this: "A single Custodian is literally a match for most things in the galaxy". Given that most things in the Galaxy are Orks, Necrons, Gaunts and Humans, sure. So what are we talking here? A Custodes should beat a Bloodthirster in a 1v1 duel?

Yes, as has been done in the past. Valdor was capable of it. As is Trajaan. If you are going by strictly fluff here, I can't tell because you go back and forth. Also, a DP is not "most things in the galaxy". DP popping onto battlefields are about the same level of probobility that a Custodian pops up and starts fighting the bads. They are both supremely unlikely. So I put DP on the "not most things" category.

Well then are the Characters Valdor and Trajaan representative of ALL Custodes? Because I'd wager not. Either way it's not very informative, you're saying both these guys destroyed heavy vehicles? How? Did they pick them up over their shoulders and toss them over a cliff? Did they wedge their weapon into a track link and immobilize it before stabbing into a fuel tank? You're leaving out a whole bunch of stuff here.

Eversor Assassins carry Meltabombs, so I guess they can kill tanks too. No biggie. A Space Marine with a Powerfist can kill a vehicle.

Are you being purposefully obtuse? All I am saying is that fluff wise, Custodes are not equal to anything on the imperium. Even a knight commander wouldn't dare to FAFO with the Guardians of the Emperor. But please, continue to twist words, and be a hater. Show me on the Great unclean one plushie where the Custodes hurt you.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are you being purposefully obtuse? All I am saying is that fluff wise, Custodes are not equal to anything on the imperium. Even a knight commander wouldn't dare to FAFO with the Guardians of the Emperor. But please, continue to twist words, and be a hater. Show me on the Great unclean one plushie where the Custodes hurt you.

Wat?

So to be clear, you appear to be saying that ALL Custodes are Trajaan-level-power in the fluff. . . but also have said earlier that "It entirely depends on who is writing the book". You say that Trajaan has killed "heavy vehicles" in some source. My question is HOW, because there's no useable information without a HOW. A guardsman can blow up a vehicle with a Meltabomb. Terminators carry Chainfists as standard equipment. Killing a vehicle isn't necessarily that impressive. The HOW matters.

If you want to debate, post some actual info and be clear about what you're frigging talking about.

To be even more clear, when I said earlier Assassins can kill Custodes, you'll see that I also specifically excluded high-ranking Custodes. So the fact that Trajaan is uber-duber doesn't disprove any statement I made either.

And yet another thing! I can look at Trajaan's stats online. Hes got big stats. He's also got a big axe. His game stats totally reflect an ability to kill a vehicle, so this is another instance of a point where game stats actually totally align with whatever book you've read, thus lending more credibility to the game-stats-are-actually-useful-in-the-debate position I've taken.

Speaking of: Custodes vs Eversor Stats

So when you say "nothing is Custodes level" I disagree.

So seeing as how i accidently started this Assassin V custode argument. I just want to say that the only reason i mentioned custodes was because in lore assassins chop through marines left and right with pretty relative ease.

So thats why i would say they would be an even match for a custode considering the average custode can do the same thing to the average space marine.

In terms of table vs lore, i would honeslty say their table rules are pretty reflective of their lore rules as well. Like an evesor would rip apart pretty much any unit he runs into.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So seeing as how i accidently started this Assassin V custode argument. I just want to say that the only reason i mentioned custodes was because in lore assassins chop through marines left and right with pretty relative ease.

So thats why i would say they would be an even match for a custode considering the average custode can do the same thing to the average space marine.

In terms of table vs lore, i would honeslty say their table rules are pretty reflective of their lore rules as well. Like an evesor would rip apart pretty much any unit he runs into.

In the lore, Genestealers tear through Terminator armor with relative ease, are you saying that a GS is a accurate match-up with a Vindicaire?

Look, the books publish new crap every day. Most of it is instantly deemed canon by the idiots at GW, no matter how badly it ruins the intent of the fluff. It's canon that a single base level human defeated hundreds of Genestealers orks, and even a black legion captain, with just a sword and a laspistol (Cain). By your logic, Cain is more powerful than Astartes Terminators.

Don't play the "Lore says" game. I mean, Lore says whatever is convenient for the narrator. Right? Whatever Abnett needs for the plot is fair game? If he needs a single squad of guardsmen holding off a full army of chaos warriors, he gets it. If Ward needs Astartes being kings of the entire universe, it becomes canon.

I hate the "The lore dictates" argument.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So seeing as how i accidently started this Assassin V custode argument. I just want to say that the only reason i mentioned custodes was because in lore assassins chop through marines left and right with pretty relative ease.

So thats why i would say they would be an even match for a custode considering the average custode can do the same thing to the average space marine.

In terms of table vs lore, i would honeslty say their table rules are pretty reflective of their lore rules as well. Like an evesor would rip apart pretty much any unit he runs into.

In the lore, Genestealers tear through Terminator armor with relative ease, are you saying that a GS is a accurate match-up with a Vindicaire?

Look, the books publish new crap every day. Most of it is instantly deemed canon by the idiots at GW, no matter how badly it ruins the intent of the fluff. It's canon that a single base level human defeated hundreds of Genestealers orks, and even a black legion captain, with just a sword and a laspistol (Cain). By your logic, Cain is more powerful than Astartes Terminators.

Don't play the "Lore says" game. I mean, Lore says whatever is convenient for the narrator. Right? Whatever Abnett needs for the plot is fair game? If he needs a single squad of guardsmen holding off a full army of chaos warriors, he gets it. If Ward needs Astartes being kings of the entire universe, it becomes canon.

I hate the "The lore dictates" argument.

Specifically, pure strain genestealer. I'm not super up on my GS lore, but aren't they zero % human, thus not relevant to the conversation?

In Space Hulk, genestealers tear through terminators, which is largely where that particular lore comes from. While plot convenience will always be a thing the lore shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. While using hero characters as a baseline of the general ability of a particular troop type is unwise, Lord commissars are pretty handy in a fight on the tabletop as well. I’m not up on recent stat lines, but given A power sword I’m sure one could give a terminator a run for his money.

Ok, what about Sly Marbo hunting Catachan Devils/Lictors for sport? It's lore in his kit. That's a S/T 3 unit with 4 wounds taking down what is essentially a Dreadnaught.

Point is: using examples in lore to justify a what if, is silly. It's like saying the Bible justifies the Bible. It's circular and fallacious.

Using lore examples to justify a what if is simply analyzing the available information and making conclusions. It's not circular or fallacious. Sure, the lore can be contradictory and inconsistent, but that's what makes the discussion a discussion. Otherwise it'd just be a post quoting something that gives the answer (and the next 3 pages would be about how much we all hate or love GW and how there can be no middle ground )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And besides,
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/239819.page

The Ork WAAAHH that was held off by Marneus Calgar ALONE, wasn't attacking him, it was running from Sly Marbo. Same with the attack on Armageddon. And the Attack on Terra.

Few people know this, but linguistically speaking, WAAAAAAHH is just the sound of abject terror an Ork makes when he thinks of Sly Marbo. Which is then usually followed by running directly into enemy fire, which is the safest place to be.

No, but honestly. Using X to prove the claim that X is true, is the definition of circular. Using the lore to prove the lore is true is the same. The lore depends on who is writing it. It's like the Inquisition existed during the time of the Primarchs, and was extremely given to purging even the slightest taint, so much so in almost starting a war with Fenris, but they have no problems with a "human" that has wings and an entire chapter of space vampires?

In my view the lore contributes to two things:

1. Broad principles of how the universe works
2. Exceptions to the principles set out by no.1

Item 2 can help set some kind of envelope of what is possible, but as the universe is effectively infinite then pretty much anything is possible.

The in-game unit stats in my view are much more Item 1. There isn't much granularity available in how the game system works, so you can't point to them as a precise indicator of specific power levels, but you can get a feel for relative performance between different troop types.

So in any vs type discussion I think its entirely reasonable to point to in-game stats or lore examples to explore what might happen.

Equally, I also agree that you can't just take the lore at face value because it is so situation and plot dependant.

Another issue is timing. The 40k background covers a lot of time and the specific exceptional information may be out of sequence with the generic background setting.

Taking your last example above, the Inquisition may like purging, but it came about after the primarchs were created, and Sanguinius was either dead before the first proto-inquisitors were chosen, or certainly before they actually sort out who does what. The Inquisition therefore have a general penchant for purging, but due to Sanguinius' sacrifice and them being generally super-awesome, the exceptional information in the lore means that the BAs have a degree of protection and their own background makes it clear that they try to keep the worst aspects of the genetic flaw concealed.

The various conflicts with Fenris and the Space Wolves appear to be from M41, and specifically because the wolves are pretty belligerent, and the parties trying to "investigate" them were not particularly open-minded.

An Inquisitor started a war with the Wolves because the Wolves protected soldiers and civilians who were escaping from the 1st War for Armageddon. It was nothing to do with genetic mutation.

And by protected we mean insisting they be actually be tested for chaos taint before being purged for it, rather than just wiping them out wholesale on the off chance.

The Inquisition is not trigger happy when it comes to wiping out a Space Marine Chapter either. There has to be serious evidence of heresy, treachery or corruption. Even then the Inquisitor in question has to convince outside parties that the Chapter is actually doing the things they say it is. If the Inquisitor can't convince outside parties, it's not just their standing or political clout they could lose but their life.

The soul drinkers were written off pretty quickly, just for standing up to the ad mech who shot first

Don't they convene a "trial" of sorts, ala what they did with Eisenhorne? How do you put an entire chapter in a room, or "in front of" a board of inquisitors?

Also, I'm willing to be those would have to be the HIGHEST level inquisitors to be able to censure or worst case, damn an entire chapter.

Besides, wouldn't they instead just remand that to the High lords, to declare them a fallen chapter or whatever the term might be, and then the high lords would just be like, alright, exterminatus sanctioned.

I'm guessing there's a standard form or something

First founding Chapters, the ones carrying the Legions name, would likely have more leeway.

"You want to eliminate the [insert first founding Chapter] who [insert famous heresy battles] for what?"

Accusing a first founding Chapter without some damning evidence is likely to be detrimental to ones career. It could lead to "retirement".

Any Inquisitor can decree a whole chapter heretical; the issue is convincing other people to go along with your decree. Your fellow Inquisitors may not take kindly to a lack of evidence combined with unhinged raving and probably take it as corruption on your part.

Other Inquisitors, especially in groups, can declare one of their own's orders invalid and heretical if they choose. Which is kind of a nice counter-balance to the issues that would arise when you give an individual person technically unlimited authority. If every Inquisitor has unlimited authority, then all of them need to tread carefully. It's a moderator on excessive behavior, that and the fact that any new Inquisitor is going to have been decades if not centuries in the making. Minimum of 40-50 years serving under another Inquisitor and then having to convince multiple higher ups in one of the Ordos to sanction the new guy.

Forget fellow inquisitors. Any heretical force potent enough to completely and utterly turn 100% of a loyalist chapter would likely be able to turn a few if not a LOT of inquisitors. (See: Heldane, inquisitor, regarding NEcrotuk (SP) affair)

There is no good way to "damn" an entire chapter, unless it's done openly and in daylight. I;E The entire SW chapter is destroyed by the GK, with full sanction by the highlords of Terra.

Chapters aren't only wiped out because they have been obviously corrupted by Chaos or Xenos means.
The Celelstial Lions were targeted for annihilation by the Inquisition because they were opposed to the Inquistion's free reign to commit atrocities, for example.