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Hecate wrote:
Mmm, it did seem broken to me, too. But my main opponent was okay with it. We never played Crusade, but they played Tzeentch (and Blood Angels), and I was Slaanesh (and Necrons), so it seemed okay for us.

90 pinks with free full splits IS broken, no wonder they were fine with it :p

Ha, yeah. I think we played 4 games with the old codex (we're new, and usually play Blood Angels and Necrons), and I don't think we ever managed to get rid of even 20 Pink Horrors due to free splitting. Although in one epic game, a pair of Cryptothralls kept the Horrors in combat for 3.5 turns, winning me the game.

Okay, I'm confused. What does the Warp Locus ability actually do? The pages dealing with the Warp Storm stuff doesn't explain it (unless I'm missing something?).

Halp!

Hecate wrote:
Okay, I'm confused. What does the Warp Locus ability actually do? The pages dealing with the Warp Storm stuff doesn't explain it (unless I'm missing something?).

Halp!

If you have a unit of Deamons arrive from the warp you can use the Warp Locus ability if there's a unit on the table with it. If you do use this method then the unit must be wholly with 6" of model with Warp Locus and can be 6" or more away from enemy units. You use this instead of arriving 9" away, enemy units LD away (3" minimal 9" max) when outside of either players deployments, or 3" away minimal in your own deployment zone.

Is that all the Locus is for? I see...

Might be useful sometimes. Thanks.

Getting within 6" is pretty good.

Biggest issue I have is my main source of warp locus is skarbrand. 8" move, big base, no fly. Either he has to be in open field and still struggles to manouver or it's not so easy to get 6" charges after all and with daemonic terror 6-7" via those isn't impossible. Does reduce need for warpstorm points though.

With Be'lakor it becomes nuts. Teleport him with 2CP anywhere 9" from enemy, bring in daemons 6" from enemy.

Can't compare with other named characters as WL source as skarbrand is only one I have.

greetings, all!

I'm a tsons player, looking for something to expand my range apart form yet more bloody scarabs and rubrics, and i decided to branch over into Deamons for verity. Ihave a few questions:

1) It seems that Tzneetch Deamons are rather hard to buy at this moment. Is the range getting a reboxing or something? none of my usual online retailers seem to have any in stock at the moment. has this been going on for some time? have i picked exactly the wrong month to take up tzneetch deamons?

2) speaking of the blue brigade, how good are they, generally? I'm intrested in getting some screamers and Flamers to add a little mobility to my pondering forces. Are they any good?

3) is the Lord of Change worth it? I don't have any real experience with "centrepiece" units like them, no one i play with runs them....which heavily implies they are not worth the points. is that the case? I dont expect to be able to work him into a 25PL bolt on detachment for my tsons, but should i just stay away form him and use the heralds for all HQ needs, full stop?

Flamers are bonkers good so no surprise they are out of stock as tournament try hards max out on those. Wouldn't surprise me if somebody would buy 6 of aos tzeentch vanquard just to get 18 flamers

So obviously flamers good.

Loc isn't bad as such but with 25pl limit doesn't leave much room for flamers...especially as you need troop as well...you are looking max flamer squad, 10 blues and loc. You could swap loc for herald and another flamer unit with points to spare. Or herald and 3x6 flamer and exalted paying 1 more cp.

Its very easy to increase the PL to 140 or even more in a 2k army. For tsons use 6 termis instead of 5, and PL goes from 10 to 20. Same with rubrics, use 6 instead of 5, and PL doubles from 6 to 12. With PL140 you can now include a daemon detachment with PL35.
Same is true for CSM. Going from 5 to 6 models will double the PL. By just adding one model you have doubled the power of the unit, while adding meltaguns, power fists, plasmaguns does nothing to increase the power level of a unit. PL is insanely stupid.

played with the dex again this weekend, definitely a gak codex IMO, super unfun to play, warp storm is such a terrible mechanic

I finally got a chance to play Khorne Daemons (2000pts), which went against my mate's Goff Pressure list. Those Orks really put on the pain, and have previously smacked around my Sisters and Chaos Knights. So I went into the game thinking that I'd get mushed, but have a wonderful time. Here was my list:

Belakor
Skarbrand
Bloodthirster w/ Great Axe - Indomitable Onslaught, Brazen Hide, Blood-Dinker Talisman
3x 10 Bloodletters
4 Bloodcrushers
2x 6 Flesh Hounds
Skull Cannon

My secondaries were Reality Rebels, Nourished by Terror, and Assassination. The Skull Cannon stayed on my home objective, the Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers started on the board, as did Belakor, and everything else was in reserve.

I pushed up with the Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers, each of whom died pretty quickly to the Orks. In fact, they just served as a means for the Orks to move up the board with charges. Likely just a mistake in how I played them. However, everything else proved the real deal. The Bloodletters reliably killed anything I threw them at, and actually didn't die too quickly. But the real winners were the three monsters. In the end I didn't need ObSec, because they just sat on objectives and killed everything that came close. I was worried for taking Skarbrand vs Orks, as I didn't want to give them even more attacks. But nothing survived him! I didn't even need Indomitable Onslaught or Blood-Drinker Talisman on my Bloodthirster, as he proved so hard to wound.

Regarding Warp Storm, I used the -1 to hit for the first round. The ignore movement penalties then actually worked a treat on the board I was on. I was surprised by that. After that I just used +1A, which never came into play.

Regarding secondaries, being against Orks Nourished by Terror was actually the real winner. But I get that's not always going to happen. In the end I maxed secondaries, and got about +8 over my opponent on secondaries for a comfortable win.

I actually really enjoyed the codex, and I was amazed by how well I did against a tough list! Ignore the nay-sayers guys; Khorne delights in the slaughter we bring!

Am I correct in assuming that Frenetic Bloodlust doesn't do anything if the bloodletter unit is out of Engagement Range and doesn't have LOS to an enemy unit?

Watched a friend play Tzeentch v Votann for the first time with the new codex yesterday. The Warp Storm stuff was completely useless, but that might've been bad rolling. The Horrors were the biggest change I noticed. The entire squad actually died! That 4+ split seems way more balanced than free splitting in PL games.

They got tabled in turn 4 and lost 35-30 VP, but it was actually pretty close. The Votann player finished with their leader bean and a single bike.

It was only a 30 PL game, but still.

The Flamers did really well, as expected.

My Tzeentch friend did remark that the new codex is easier to use than the old one, too. Both in layout (dataslates grouped by god rather than troops/elites etc.) and in clarity.

I still haven't used my Slaanesh yet, but hopefully in a couple weeks.

artific3r wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that Frenetic Bloodlust doesn't do anything if the bloodletter unit is out of Engagement Range and doesn't have LOS to an enemy unit?

It says if that unit is not within engagement range of any enemy units, make a normal move of up to 6". It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If there is no visible enemy unit you can move anywhere. The first sentence instructs you to make a normal move, thats mandatory.

 TonyH122 wrote:

I actually really enjoyed the codex, and I was amazed by how well I did against a tough list! Ignore the nay-sayers guys; Khorne delights in the slaughter we bring!

Please actually read what us "nay-sayers" are actually saying if you are going to tell people to ignore us.

Khorne is the big winner in this codex. Khorne is honestly just fine and I think that it is awesome for Khorne fans. Tzeentch is okay, flamers are a massive crutch but outside of that they are still decent. Slaanesh is not great, they can do a little bit to stay competitive but they are not about to rock the world. Nurgle are awful, truly abysmal.

If you want to rock undivided you can do well, if you run Khorne you can do well. The rest of the codex is poorly designed, uninspiring and just not fun to play. I have won with my Nurgle army but it was more frustrating than fun and I have only played them against other suffering armies. When I play Slaanesh I at least feel like I am playing the game even if it is with an inferior army. I unfortunately do not have the greater daemons to play Khorne or Tzeentch yet, so my experience is more limited with them but I can clearly see how you can run them.

Belakor is glue that just holds the entire codex together. The codex should be called "Belakor: Also his friends."

 p5freak wrote:

artific3r wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that Frenetic Bloodlust doesn't do anything if the bloodletter unit is out of Engagement Range and doesn't have LOS to an enemy unit?

It says if that unit is not within engagement range of any enemy units, make a normal move of up to 6". It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If there is no visible enemy unit you can move anywhere. The first sentence instructs you to make a normal move, thats mandatory.

So the second line is not mandatory? It sounds pretty mandatory:

"It MUST end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit."

Is there a precedent or FAQ that addresses a similar rule with this specific wording? It seems very ambiguous. If you had a unit of bloodletters hidden out of LOS, you could use literally use Frenetic Bloodlust to run away from the enemy. That doesn't seem very thematic. Either way, it doesn't seem 100% crystal clear to me that the second line is not mandatory.

The second sentence is mandatory as well. But when there is no visible enemy unit you dont have to move closer to it. You must move, but you can move anywhere you like. I dont know any FAQ covering this. Feel free to create a new thread in YMDC.

If you can move anywhere, we'd also have the weird case of being out of LOS initially, then moving AWAY from the enemy unit but INTO LOS. I'd be interested to see how TO's have been ruling it, especially since daemons now have a strong presence at top tables.

Yes, this is interesting. I will make a new thread in YMDC about this.

What a difference one roll can make. Week ago got solid thumping by orks. Learned lessons and crucially got to go first and result was total flip.

Vs orks shooting at multiple units and splittrng attacks sooo good. Especially when you put full ld debuffs from warpstorm table. I feel ork players pain as morale hurts them most.

Capped nurture by terror on my 2nd turn...

So played a few games with the dex this weekend with my added Khorne units to my tzeentch ones. Here are my thoughts (played tempest so I don't know about secondaries)

My list (based mostly on what I own)

Bloodthirster with exalted and the blood talisman
LoC with -1 hit, -1 wound (WL) and the improved shooting attack rod relic
herald of tzeentch on disc
herald of khorne on juggernaut

10 blue horrors
10 pink horrors

6 Blood crushers
6 flamers

4 screamers

Chariot of Tzeentch
Soulgrinder of nurgle.

First game against ultra marines with Bobby-G. I won this game by a pretty wide margin.
Second game against CSM creations of bile. My opponent had an emergency and had to leave, but he was beating the crap out of me and would have won the game. Creations of bile are basically going to beat daemons every time with their fight on death, as all the daemon units die pretty quick in CC.

Thoughts on warp storm

The warp storm table is probably the worst army wide rule in the game. Other than the -1 to hit and heal (which is so hard to get) the rest are usually worthless, with the -1 to hit being worthless after turn one (everything is basically within 12). Personally since we don't get a <legion> trait equivalent they should just allow access to all of the effects as long as you have one unit from that god on the table. The god specific ones are not as terrible, but (as I argued before) not worth losing out on mixing the best units from each god.

Thoughts on units

Bloodthirster with exalted and the blood talisman - quite frankly he was underwhelming. I brought him with flail and ax (what he is modeled with) and in both games he just did not do enough damage to hurt marines, especially with armor of contempt. I am going to try the big ax instead (proxy) to see if it helps, but ultimately for 350 points, he just is not worth it. Also the lose 8 wounds per phase is nice, but he lost those wounds pretty much every major phase, so it did not really help him all that much, especially since he was not killing things.

LoC with -1 hit, -1 wound (WL) and the improved shooting attack rod relic - This guys is better, but again is not kill-y enough. I have him cast the mortal wound powers and gives himself +1T but mortal wounds from one unit only go so far. I do like the shooting relic. It gives him some decent shooting so he can contribute in the shooting phase meaningfully. However it is to short of a range. He got killed against the ultras due to being hit by a contempter with volkite and my opponent rolled 6 6's to wound. Then he got finished in CC. Also why is his BS 3? I mean really.

herald of tzeentch on disc - support casts +1 to wound on flamers and smites and gives re-roll 1's to wound to flamers. Did what he does.

herald of khorne on juggernaut - provided support to the blood crushers. he did ok, again his CC was very underwhelming.

10 blue horrors - best troop unit in the daemon book. why? they only cost 70 points to sit on home objective.

10 pink horrors - they absorb shooting right up until they are charged then they are gone. Their shooting is not great, especially against marines

6 Blood crushers - so I love these models. And in the second game I got a charge with them with all six, and they killed a whole 10 man squad of CSM. The problem is that they die pretty easy to small arms fire even with the tough 5, and 4+(d). The first game I only got three into combat, and they did not do great. They are way overpriced.

6 flamers - I mean broke as hell. Need to be 10 points more. However, I got charged due to LoS blocking terrain and could not overwatch. They die quick in CC. I still think they are to cheap, but I don't think they should be over 35 with that weakness to CC.

4 screamers - they simple exist to screen for the LoC. They are not good in CC, the only thing they do and they are WAY over priced.

Chariot of Tzeentch - The big shot is not great. It maxes at 9 damage and that is if you hit, wound and no save with all three shots. It is also pretty fragile despite the 3+(d).

Soulgrinder of nurgle - T9 is cool, but 5+ in CC make him easy to kill in CC with weight of attacks.

Overall thoughts,

Daemons are a bottom tier army. They felt ok against space marines, but against CSM? It was like playing an 8th edition book. Everything in the book (except flamers and maybe souldgrinder) is over costed. Some things by a lot. Screams and bloodcrushers are like 10 points to much, horrors are no where near worth 150 points, even with the free split (I would make them 120 at most). LoC and BT are not worth over 300 points, and the hearlds feel like they are 10 to 20 points to expensive. Also there are a bunch of things that really need a glow up. Horrors should have 3 shots (then 2 for blue and 1 for the little guy) but make them all the same BS and S so I don't have to roll all those shots separately. The LoC should have BS 2 and the rod shooting should be 18 inch range and 1 better strength. The charriot (and exalted flamer) need to have d3+3 damage to make them even remotely interesting. The BT needs something to help with defense in CC against weight of dice, like maybe a true 2+ armor save that can be reduced, then on to his 4+(d) save. The warp storm table needs improvement (reduce the cost of all by 1) and as long as you have one unit of a god you should be able to use the god specific abilities regardless of mix and match.

I don't know I don't think the book is that good. I don't think I would play it competitive at all and only use it for fun games.

Just my thoughts.

Myself I use the -1 LD and range increase for that a lot. Especially turn 2 to get those sweet 6" charges out of deep strikes. Even after that the -1 LD can give more models running away.

Flail thirster enjoyes the king of blades as an artefact I find.

Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

Buff god specific effects and make them cheaper. Then add mono bonus rule which requires all models to have that god(and make be'lakor break this).

Then you have reasons to go for mix in 1 det, mix in multiple detachments and pure god.

Going all in on "mix or you suck" is worst way they could go.

Has anyone played against Custodes yet?

I'm wondering how much their Ld 11 hurts our deep strike. Is our warp locus deep strike reliable enough to forgo the Ld-based one? Is it even necessary to deep strike against Custodes or can we get by with walking across the table?

tneva82 wrote:
Myself I use the -1 LD and range increase for that a lot. Especially turn 2 to get those sweet 6" charges out of deep strikes. Even after that the -1 LD can give more models running away.

Flail thirster enjoyes the king of blades as an artefact I find.

Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

Buff god specific effects and make them cheaper. Then add mono bonus rule which requires all models to have that god(and make be'lakor break this).

Then you have reasons to go for mix in 1 det, mix in multiple detachments and pure god.

Going all in on "mix or you suck" is worst way they could go.

They could have done something like you know, given an actual buff to playing as mono-god. The god specific abilities just don't counter act the bonus of being able to take the best units for each role. There isn't a WS ability for mono-god that counter acts being able to take Flamers and Bloodthirsters together.

 xeen wrote:

Personally since we don't get a <legion> trait equivalent they should just allow access to all of the effects as long as you have one unit from that god on the table.

wait WHAT

holy gak the codex is even worse than i thought, i assumed that you only needed a unit to unlock them, not a whole detachment.

for feth's sake this is sooo dissapointing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

yeah, like giving us back the locus.....

feth i'm so dissapointed in that release, it's only getting worse and worse

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Myself I use the -1 LD and range increase for that a lot. Especially turn 2 to get those sweet 6" charges out of deep strikes. Even after that the -1 LD can give more models running away.

Flail thirster enjoyes the king of blades as an artefact I find.

Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

Buff god specific effects and make them cheaper. Then add mono bonus rule which requires all models to have that god(and make be'lakor break this).

Then you have reasons to go for mix in 1 det, mix in multiple detachments and pure god.

Going all in on "mix or you suck" is worst way they could go.

They could have done something like you know, given an actual buff to playing as mono-god. The god specific abilities just don't counter act the bonus of being able to take the best units for each role. There isn't a WS ability for mono-god that counter acts being able to take Flamers and Bloodthirsters together.

So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?

tneva82 wrote:

So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?

is that really what you understood from their comment??

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 xeen wrote:

Personally since we don't get a <legion> trait equivalent they should just allow access to all of the effects as long as you have one unit from that god on the table.

wait WHAT

holy gak the codex is even worse than i thought, i assumed that you only needed a unit to unlock them, not a whole detachment.

for feth's sake this is sooo dissapointing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

yeah, like giving us back the locus.....

feth i'm so dissapointed in that release, it's only getting worse and worse

Yea that is what that says, one unit to unlock the god bonus, not whole detachment (which is what it is now). I agree that there should be a mono-god bonus, but my point was that with the current book as is adding mono-god abilities to the mixed detachments would help, you know, not make the book so bad. Also points cost are just so so bad on everything other than flamers (which is the real issue in my mind)

Looking at Plaguebearers… in a vacuum, they improved. By a bit.

But when you take into account lost combos and synergies… yikes.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?

is that really what you understood from their comment??

You are the one who suggested removing only reason to not-go undivided without giving anything back. If just by having khorne model gives khorne warpstorm not much point taking khorne detachment...