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That’s a good point on the “Always Watching”, and again it adds to the wider tragedy that arguably the most internally stable and unified species yet seen are only so because their free will was forcibly removed.

The only thing that’s unclear to me at the moment is who/what is deciding when the next generation is made, and what traits will be included in their Cloneskein. Because if it’s the Votann? That’s another layer to the horror of their existence.

It’s kind of like a twisted take on Lizardmen Spawnings, where their reproduction and replenishment was decided aeons ago by the Old Ones, based on prophecy and that. Or indeed, a technological Hive Mind of the Tyranids.

I mean, fallen Kin and Ironkin are fed back into the Votann, so it can absorb their memories. But what’s it doing with them? It’s not a stretch at all to suggest it uses those memories to analyse the state of the Galaxy, quickly compare its Excel Spreadsheet on the type and number of Kin/Ironkin, and replenish losses from there, ensuring whatever is popped out the other end is suited to the current threat matrix.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tragedy bordering on pathetic. In a good way.

The Votann are almost certainly deliberately engineered for mining, but also for a lack of fundamental freedom.

Hence mining is in their blood. They’re good at it, it provides them what they need. But it’s all they know.

One could point this out to them with, aha, cast iron evidence of their origins and intent behind those origins, but the self same design? Stops them from caring.

And that’s where they border into pathetic. They’re not “Real Boys”. They’re machines, albeit fleshy organic machines. Just as Ford once said “you can have it in any colour, as long as it’s black”, Kin can be anything they want - as long as they want to be a miner.

As noted that they’re Really Good At It, and their purpose furnishes them with everything they need, leading to their longevity and exquisite preservation of things long since lost to humanity fits the farcical nature of 40K nicely.

But there’s also room for a darker side to it, particularly during the Dark Age of Technology. As I’ve speculated, they didn’t fall foul of the Men of Iron, because they seemingly never treated the Men of Iron as anything less than equals. They’re all slaves at the end of the day, and it’s that common station which spared them the doom of earlier humanity. But what if the Kin were part and parcel of that rebellion, with the Votann actively erasing history there, seeing with the rise of The Imperium, a war they didn’t need to fight?

They have the good sense to hide the extent of AI in their society, and protect the Votann. And that knowledge must’ve come from somewhere. That could be the result of early contact with the Great Crusade. Even a single Rogue Trader discovering a Votann, knowing it for what is, and then being horribly murdered as a defensive measure, the existence and nature of the Votann then being a priority, and added to the Cloneskein mix, further removing personal agency from the Kin as a species.

The subtle lack of free will and focus on the pragmatic sort of makes them like Orks. They, like Orks, do not suffer existential angst because existential issues will either never occur to them, or they would just shrug it off even if you brought those topics to their attention.

The Kin have found Happiness in Slavery. Their work has set them free. Happy is the slave that does not feel the chain.

Them hiding the existence of the Votann is I think just their pragmatism at work. The Kin were engineered to be smart enough to problem solve, as they would have needed to be in order to survive and build in the Core. They could clearly see that the Adeptus Mechanicus coveted their technology and the size of the Imperium, so they could analyze and determine that bringing the whole Imperium and Mechanicus down on the Kin would not end well for the Kin. I don't necessarily see that as evidence of the Kin being actively involved in the rebellion of the Men of Iron.

After so many thousands of years though, we seem to see glimmers of artistic expression in things like their armor decoration or their animal headed crests. Perhaps their ancient programming is breaking down, leading to the resurfacing of such "wasteful" pursuits as art? Or perhaps even these were planned for as societal steam valves. Just enough so that the Kin don't go stir crazy but not enough for them to truly be mentally and creatively free.

Iracundus wrote:

After so many thousands of years though, we seem to see glimmers of artistic expression in things like their armor decoration or their animal headed crests. Perhaps their ancient programming is breaking down, leading to the resurfacing of such "wasteful" pursuits as art? Or perhaps even these were planned for as societal steam valves. Just enough so that the Kin don't go stir crazy but not enough for them to truly be mentally and creatively free.

Perhaps they developed 'art' as an emergency response after the fact - with the Votann lagging more and more, they hyper-efficient kin often conclude operations before the Votann has calculated their optimal next endeavour. In the ensuing time periode, the Squats face the one enemy they were never equipped to deal with and which they abhorr above all else: free time. And since their society frowns on idleness and thinks vacations are a sin, they desparately scramble for anything that kills time but is seen, or can be seen, as productive, so adamantium-block scrimshawing it is.

That adds a funny twist to another dwarven trope: instead of high-quality craftsmanship being their pride and favourite pastime, it's more like something shameful that you don't really talk about, because acknowledging why you do them would mean to admit that there's something wrong with the Votann and that your ancestor core is starting to fail.

On the art?

Music and The Arts in general are spectacularly human things. They exist in us on an instinctual level, and have done for many hundreds of thousands of years.

Other species have been observed using tools in the wild, and a slim few have been observed honing tools. But none, outside of captivity and human demonstration, have demonstrated art.

So for Votann and other Abhuman species, perhaps it’s some intrinsically human thing which can’t be removed. Or indeed should be removed.

Before formal writing, we had art. Renditions of beast and tools and techniques. See the blackboard or white boards we were educated via? Same principle. A way to convey information. The key to our gross success as a species when, physically, we’re pretty weedy and unimpressive.

So, why remove it? Some of my hobbies involve artistic expression. And I find it massively de-stressing. If I’ve had to deal with an unreasonable melt at work, breaking out my cross stitch or resin moulds acts as a proper mental break from my profession. Granted nothing I do is particularly fancy, but it all refocuses my attention and literally takes my mind off my day job.

You want an efficient slave species (as we proposed the Kin to be)? Let them have their art. Don’t eradicate it. Arts and Crafts let us blow off steam in genuinely healthy ways.

If it wouldn’t be breaching Dakka’s P&R ban? I’d point to arts and crafts being so strong an instinct, it’s never been beaten out of us. Oppressed? Sure. Suppressed? Definitely. But never halted. Ever.

Lovely hypothesis on Dwarven artistic creativity in space!

But the good Mad Doc is right on target here in my view. The human drive for creativity and creating beauty is such an integral part of what it means to be alive, sentient and endowed with able hands. And it is such a destressing way to find fulfilment and meaning in work and life that it might actually be beneficial to dial it up further from the evolved natural genome, in order to enhance the willing thrall race of perfectionist artisans.

It makes perfect sense for their makers to boost Squat artistic inclinations on a genetic level.

And I say this as someone who has always had a helpful and kind personality that basically can be summed up as a servant or even slave mentality, and as someone known for both hard work, focus, perfectionism and creativity. Art is good for you, and the gene-modded slave.

Cheers

It could also be a way to help maintain sanity in a longer lived species.

Of course, we have no base reference for what baseline human standard lifetimes were when the Kin were first sent forth. But if it was a genuine Golden Age for all mankind, and not just the equivalent 1%, we could argue overall life expectancy would be up, as we see in wealthier countries compared to poorer countries. But whether without rejuvenation procedures we know to exist in 40K we ever lived to 200 years old, we can only guess at.

But we know the Kin do live that long - most ably confirmed in the Necromunda background.

Their desire for perfection and patience in design work could be a deliberate design choice by their makers, as a way to ensure insanity and ennui are staved off over their extended lifespans by an obsessive mindset over their crafting. Not to mention if the Evil Unfeeling Capitalist Overlords In Spaaaaaaaace theory is correct? It’s how they ensure their fleshy little drones aren’t producing crap, but high end gubbins each and every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, on a college aside? Arks of Omen, and a specific piece of Votann art has set my mind a whirl.

The Arks are of course Space Hulks. Massive conglomerates of warp faring space craft mooshed and squished together. Alien, Imperial, Chaos, all different eras haphazardly melded into a drifting hulk of unknown potential.

The downside is they tend to float in and out of the warp, seemingly at random. And are often filled with nasties such as Orks and Genestealers.

But if you have the cajones, opportunity and resources to board one, the rewards can be staggering.

Which brings me on to the art piece in question….



That appears to be a ship for strip mining planets…..by engulfing the planets (rumours it was made from Galactus’ left knacker remain unfounded)

Now, I’d imagine such mining involves graviton weapons and tractor beam type things. Which to me suggests such a craft would be ideal for tackling a Space Hulk.

Not necessarily a weaponised Space Hulk (be it Orks or Chaos or whomever) because those tend to shoot back. But one simply drifting it’s way around.

Pull it in, have it pinned as best you can. Presumably the Kin would have scanners to detect things, which would allow them to identify and target Warp Engines for shutdown, hopefully greatly or entirely reducing the chances of it slipping back into the warp.

Then…take your time taking it apart, potentially ship-by-ship, especially if you’ve a mind to properly study them?

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

They do though; the codex has subfactions that are basically all the old stories of what happened to the squats. There's the Necromunda Squats, which are kind of isolated from the larger League society and thus much closer to the old space dwarf fluff, there's background for leagues that were eradicated by the Tyranids and Orks, and there's stories about Leagues that operated with/for the Tau and misrepresented themselves or were misunderstood as the only surviving Squats, which of course wraps up the questions about the Demiurg. It's actually rather well done, at least if measured by the usual GW benchmark for stuff like this, and allows to integrate all of the conflicting stories of the past.

Yup.

Given 40K is an inherently mutable canon, told as it is by POV of unreliable narrators, the Votann background is pretty top notch.

The Leagues aren’t the Squats, but the Squats are part of the Leagues, still Kin. Same with Demiurg and the other names they’re known and perhaps deliberately masquerade under.

As for the original Squats? I’ve read their Lore. And there’s really, really not a lot of it. What’s there isn’t poor by any stretch of the imagination, but anyone saying swathes and swathes of former 40K history has just been swept away for Shiny New I’m afraid doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The majority of it comes from Ork & Squat Warlords, a 2nd Ed Epic expansion.

That came around the time 40K was really starting to sort the wheat from the chaffe in its own background. The majority carried over, some as was, some with a spit and polish. But that’s when 40K really became 40K proper. And that was all the background Squats ever really got. Trust me. I’ve every Rogue Trader era book.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

The Leagues are the old squats, though. The Old squats have just been retconned to not having been a thing and were always the Leagues.

They even factored in the Tyranids thing by having that just be a rumour that didn't actually happen, because that's pretty much what the real-world explanation was.

Oh yeah, rectonn to not having been a thing is not the same as they are the squats

Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

Andykp wrote:
Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

Andykp wrote:
Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

As you say they have always had Leagues, their current faction name is Leagues of Votann. The important thing here is the plural. The Votann isn't one League, meaning it's the same structure as the old lore. The only difference is they aren't called Squats anymore. But they say in the codex that's what other humans tend to call them.

Not really a "retcon" there so not quite sure what Icmiracle is complaining about.

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

I sure hope so... I featured a fortress with Squats from the old background in my Dark Heresy campaign, but now that the Votann Leagues out I would also like to keep the campaign compatible with the new lore. I'll probably say those classic Squats were a remote offshoot of the Leagues...

GloriousBattle wrote:

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

I sure hope so... I featured a fortress with Squats from the old background in my Dark Heresy campaign, but now that the Votann Leagues out I would also like to keep the campaign compatible with the new lore. I'll probably say those classic Squats were a remote offshoot of the Leagues...

The current lore Necromunda Squats/Leagues are pretty much that, they have been isolated from the larger league bodies for centuries, if not millenia, and at least outwardly represent their own specific culture that is much nearer to old lore squats. They also have Landtrains, more rugged technology, no outwardly apparent AI constructs and all that.

Andykp wrote:
Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

They've always had the Votann, Ironkin etc and they're a return of the Squats, they've been called such multiple times by GW. The original Squats lore has been replaced by the Leagues and this is how they've been all along. They aren't ones that "survived" as the Tyranid extinction event for the original depiction never happened.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

They do though; the codex has subfactions that are basically all the old stories of what happened to the squats. There's the Necromunda Squats, which are kind of isolated from the larger League society and thus much closer to the old space dwarf fluff, there's background for leagues that were eradicated by the Tyranids and Orks, and there's stories about Leagues that operated with/for the Tau and misrepresented themselves or were misunderstood as the only surviving Squats, which of course wraps up the questions about the Demiurg. It's actually rather well done, at least if measured by the usual GW benchmark for stuff like this, and allows to integrate all of the conflicting stories of the past.

Agreed; GW writers did good with this one. I have really liked the implementation and integration of 40k's communication difficulties.

Indeed. The new Squats are surprisingly well crafted.

In thought experiments in past years over how one could make Squats fit into 40k in a way they never achieved back in Rogue Trader, I always reached the conclusion that they would need to drive hard for asteroid mining, and that it would be wise to make them something more than just Dwarves in space. I did not foresee clunky AI with hilariously slowed down supercomputers and robots, but in hindsight it's such a perfect fit for space Dwarfs in decrepit 40k.

Seeing the previews of the new Leagues of Votann miniatures, art and background, it seemed evident that Games Workshop had reached the same two conclusions as I had, plus their clunky AI concept.

The NASA-punk style spoke volumes, and is such a clever way to tie in visually to a bygone era of optimistic expansion, exploration and innovation. I'm not a fan of the new Squats' bodily proportions (rotund, please) or overall lack of big beards, but otherwise they're such a good fit aesthetically.*

Now, the NASA-punk style of the new Squats did seem to promise that Games Workshop had made them into something else than Dwarrows in space. Lo and behold when I read the codex, and it turned out that GW had in fact written the new Squats as some of the most Dwarven stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read! And it's exquisitely written, to boot.

Part of the polish is to basically have included most of the old Squat lore within the new Squat lore, without throwing much of anything out. The only big deviation is the lack of kings hoarding treasure, which always stuck out like a sore thumb in the original background as straight up fantasy copy-paste. Instead interest groups gather in Hearthspake thing councils, which is much more fitting for science fantasy while still having the appropriate old Nordic feel.

That said, even the Kings with their Hearthguads can easily fit into the new Squats as local subfactions with monarchies advised by Heathspakes. It's such an easy little addition and does not have a jarring effect. There is really nothing substantial from the old Squats missing in the new Squat background. It's all baked into the new codex, and what a blast it is to read.

Cheers

_______________
* Unlike Jervis Johnson, I never thought that the aesthetics of the Rogue Trader Squats were lacking. Their quilted armour, futuristic mining helmets, decorated spherical exo-armour and rowdy Guild bikers made for something memorable, and the Epic 40k range did provide lacking pieces such as big drills and sci-fi Dwarven machinery. The only things sorely missing was some golem-esque large, bulky walker and Slayers with bomb belts.

The Rogue Trader Squat aesthetic is still good, though the few models that were just straight up fantasy Dwarves in space are lacklustre and uninspiring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bonus input to the strain of discussion regarding Squat creativity:

BassoeG over on Deviantart wrote:

BassoeG wrote:Anyone else getting vibes of Arnold K’s dwarves here?

Which are basically Dwarves that are functional, but lacks any and all creativity. They are thoroughly boring, humour-less and bereft of decorations. And even kidnap outsiders to act as king, since they are dependent on captive creative thinkers to propose solutions to problems.

My response:

I can see why, though 40k Squats do not lack for innate creativity, handcrafted ornamentation and gruff humour. All three of these I consider essential for all Dwarrows regardless of setting.

One just has to understand that they are contained in a stolid, unshakably loyal, clannish, traditional, thorough, pragmatic, perfectionist race that enjoys long, hard toil with excellent results: Fundamental failure to achieve good results despite the best of efforts can indeed break them (see Warhammer fantasy Slayers, where hard failings bring down the mighty Dwarven mind like a giant oak crashing). Think of Dwarves as nigh-on a biological eternal motion machine, well capable of creative problem-solving, and you won't be far off. They are cast in a mould with limits, but excels within the confines of their created being.

Or, to put it like ashur on Chaos Dwarfs Online did:

"This is terrifyingly good! They are like robots without their builders. Now they keep going without asking what is the purpose of what they do. They work to endure and endure to work, without anything to break the cycle.

And yet they brew alcohol, share jokes and enjoy battle songs, so maybe the Ancestors failed to completly dehumanize them. It’s depressing and heartwarming, depending on your point of view."

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

Part of the polish is to basically have included most of the old Squat lore within the new Squat lore, without throwing much of anything out. The only big deviation is the lack of kings hoarding treasure, which always stuck out like a sore thumb in the original background as straight up fantasy copy-paste. Instead interest groups gather in Hearthspake thing councils, which is much more fitting for science fantasy while still having the appropriate old Nordic feel.

That said, even the Kings with their Hearthguads can easily fit into the new Squats as local subfactions with monarchies advised by Heathspakes. It's such an easy little addition and does not have a jarring effect. There is really nothing substantial from the old Squats missing in the new Squat background. It's all baked into the new codex, and what a blast it is to read.

Cheers

_______________
* Unlike Jervis Johnson, I never thought that the aesthetics of the Rogue Trader Squats were lacking. Their quilted armour, futuristic mining helmets, decorated spherical exo-armour and rowdy Guild bikers made for something memorable, and the Epic 40k range did provide lacking pieces such as big drills and sci-fi Dwarven machinery. The only things sorely missing was some golem-esque large, bulky walker and Slayers with bomb belts.

The Rogue Trader Squat aesthetic is still good, though the few models that were just straight up fantasy Dwarves in space are lacklustre and uninspiring.

I think there's ample space to introduce characters that fit the 'King of Avarice / Miser King'-mould in all but name once they get to do some LoV novels or stories that feature them in a major way - as of now, most space was -quite reasonably- devoted to characterizing the faction, i guess they get to characterizing actual characters on the next round.

That being said, Hearthguard or something like that can be slotted in the new background quite seamlessly, they just need to guard the Votann themselves, not some sort of individual squat. Some sort of analogue to the relationship between the Emperor and Custodians comes to mind quite naturally, with the Hearthguard acting as bodyguard to the Votann, but also going on special missions or acting as overseers / secret police to ensure compliance from now to then.

In my opinion, the most interesting thing on the tabletop and in the background would be a closer look on the Ironkin, including aforementioned battelforms like the 'Golem' and such, and a deeper exploration of the cultural and material bonds between the Squats and their Votann 'masters' - are there Squat Ancestor- or Death cults? If the Votann learns from reabsorbing dead Squats and Ironkin, recovering the Dead and Relics would be quite valuable for tactical and informational/scientific reason, so maybe there are dedicated sects or forces that strive for that? And so on...

On how well the League Lore has been added?

At first, Tau felt like a new badge on an old camping blanket. Stitched on, adding to its richness, but not necessarily an integral part.

Leagues however are a hole in that blanket not fixed with a patch, but by new weaving. To the trained eye you can tell it’s new. But for all intents and purposes, the blanket now feels whole, like the new weave has always been part of it.

We have a decent narrative reason for why we’ve not seen them before (they’re in the deep core, where no-one else goes - or at least comes back from).

They’ve taken on various guises to obscure their origin and number. Hence Demiurg are Kin. This allowed them to trade with the Tau without risking Imperial Ire. But they’re also almost, depending how you read the background, a sub-culture within the wider whole.

The Squats of old were a limited sect who ran into the nascent Imperium, and sort-of signed up. Some of those took work on Necromunda, found it to their liking (plenty to mine, mostly left alone) and over time became their own distinct subculture.

As retcons go, this one is pretty much seem less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It even leaves room for renegade factions of Kin. Not in a Chaos way. More a rejection of Votann Society way. And that could be dropped in at any point in the future.

And as this thread goes to show? There’s plenty of tragedy involved. Not doom and gloom as 40K typically knows it, where everyone is just staving off death. But an altogether more subtle tragedy, that their success came at a price they’re utterly unable to acknowledge, the cost of truly free will. Their every decision making process is limited because they’re not far off Fleshy Automata. Designed and customised to be Good At This Thing With No Particular Desire Not To Do This Thing Because We Ensured They Want To Do This Thing.

Stepford Wives. They’re bloody 40K Stepford Wives via Midwich Cuckoos. That’s what they are.

Took me long enough to get a pop culture comparison 😂😂

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On how well the League Lore has been added?

The Squats of old were a limited sect who ran into the nascent Imperium, and sort-of signed up.

This part doesn't actually seem to be the case though, there isn't anything in the new lore about the classic squats as they were before. The classic Squats aren't some specific group who were like that, they've just been outright retconned.

The closest thing we have is Grendl Grendlsen, but he's implied to just be a League mercenary, and there's artwork of League Kin wearing similar gear to him too.

Hardly. A lot of the Rogue Trader Squat background has been woven into the new codex, and remains implied (including in the RT style Squat artwork in question). The Mad Doc is on point.

We are even told of Squats who dwell in Imperial space, in passing. It doesn't take much imagination to read the implication that the old Squats as a limited phenomenon are alive and kicking much as described in Rogue Trader. Especially given the glimpse we are given of Ironhead Squats on Necromunda. But the Leagues of Votann codex takes a more zoomed-out view, focusing on the independent Kin in the core with some teasing glances on Demiurg and Squats in Imperial space, as well as roaming mercenaries and adventurers.

Compare the below background on Squat society to the new background. It's been tweaked and reworked and expanded for better effect, but it's not an outright retcon, aside from the monarchical-aristocratic elite that just screamed fantasy Dwarfs; the Hearthspake just works better for science fantasy. A lot more of the better old background has been retained than one could have reasonably assumed would be the case:



Furthermore, I propose that the following Rogue Trader piece of background is still relevant for the limited Squat homeworlds discovered by the Imperium. And I propose that the part on Squats breeding true is to be taken as still-relevant proof for Kin everywhere breeding naturally, although the vast majority come from cloneskeins:



Cloneskeins possibly not even being known by the Imperium is nothing strange: Kin has the same Dwarven secrecy that so characterized Tolkien's Dwarves.

Kin breeding naturally may apply to the "base model" with more extreme variants still requiring a Votann's intervention to produce. That could be perhaps why the Imperium finds "abhuman" Squats rather than Kin that are so extreme as to be misclassified as aliens (and hence for extermination by the Imperium). So the Kin diaspora populations without access to Votann to continue to produce the more specialized cloneskeins eventually ends up with "just" the base model which are the Squats..

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Hardly. A lot of the Rogue Trader Squat background has been woven into the new codex, and remains implied (including in the RT style Squat artwork in question). The Mad Doc is on point.

We are even told of Squats who dwell in Imperial space, in passing. It doesn't take much imagination to read the implication that the old Squats as a limited phenomenon are alive and kicking much as described in Rogue Trader. Especially given the glimpse we are given of Ironhead Squats on Necromunda. But the Leagues of Votann codex takes a more zoomed-out view, focusing on the independent Kin in the core with some teasing glances on Demiurg and Squats in Imperial space, as well as roaming mercenaries and adventurers.

Compare the below background on Squat society to the new background. It's been tweaked and reworked and expanded for better effect, but it's not an outright retcon, aside from the monarchical-aristocratic elite that just screamed fantasy Dwarfs; the Hearthspake just works better for science fantasy. A lot more of the better old background has been retained than one could have reasonably assumed would be the case:

What I meant is that the Leagues are a direct replacement for the original squats. The Leagues incorporate some of the Old Squat lore and have lots of similarities because they are meant to be them, but they are not stated to be/have been two distinct societies or something like that, the Leagues have just taken their place as if that original depiction was really meant to be how they are now instead - a retcon. Kin may have settled elsewhere or operated as mercenaries for the Imperium, but the idea of the original squats being some specific league/subset of the Votann or how they were historically or something like that isn't actually said to be the case anywhere in the new lore. There isn't "The Leagues" of now and "The Squat Empire" of classic lore as two noticeably distinct groups that existed at some point, there's just the Leagues.

The closest thing we have to them being two separate things is the codex art of the guys in classic style uniforms but based on Grendl that's just League Mercenary gear, not something actually from some sort of group that lines up with that classic squat lore rather than Votann lore.

Has there been any mention of the Kin in other recent publications? Like the Guard, World eaters dex or the Arks of Omen books?

I’m part way through AoO Angron, and no mention of Kin thus far. But that’s a particularly Imperial centric volume.

Haven’t gotten my mitts on AoO Abaddon yet.

Further thought on Kin, and their resistance to Chaos.

Whilst one might put it down to their “hardened souls”? I think that’s only a partial answer.

See, Chaos needs something to get its hooks into. Usually a desire of some kind, which they can often quite gently coax from an interest, to a desire, to utter single minded obsession.

Different things for different Gods of course. Tzeentch likes his revolutionaries. Nurgle listens to the pleas of the suffering and delivers respite. Khorne admires valour and skill at arms. Slaanesh just like…..excess.

Yet they have pretty much no hold over Orks. Not only do Orks have their own Gods? But an unshakeable self belief. They’re Orky. Orks is da best. And if you want to be da best Ork, you just got to keep clobberin’ your way up the pile. If you get clobbered, don’t really matter. You’re either ded, or survive and can always come back and try again later.

Kin, like Orks, but perhaps not quite as extreme, have Surety Of Purpose.

Their society only demands you pull your weight. Your birth wasn’t exactly pre-ordained, but your aptitudes were, to a certain extent.

There is a place for you. Your are welcome. You too are an essential, irreplaceable, part of the whole. Everyone is pulling in the same direction as you.

Dare I even suggest they’re a bit Socialist? It’s not just the workers and the drudges that have rations when times are tough. Everyone has rations. Your privations are everyone’s privations. The risks and rewards are shared. Perhaps not entirely equally (hence socialist, not communist. There is a difference!), but you still get what you need to survive and continually contribute your share.

And like Ork society? That status quo seems to be wholeheartedly embraced by all Kin.

Nobody is left behind. Their society is pretty egalitarian. Everyone’s abilities are valued, and a use found for them. Yes some Kin will know poverty - but it’s not as a result of a given class or caste unfairly hoarding the fruits of collective labours. If you’re in dire straits, so is the rest of your Kin. Perhaps to somewhat differing levels, but the peril is shared enough that everyone pulls in the same direction to lift everyone out of it.

That…doesn’t leave a lot of room for Chaos to hook its claws into?

Aaaah! Aaaaaaaah! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!

I’ve been all thick! I’ve failed to spot a certain trail of breadcrumbs! Because it is an old trail. One barely remembered.

See, in Necromunda, the Spyrers had battle rigs. Orrus, Malcadon, Yeld and Jakarta. Debuted in Outlanders.

A few years later, the Tau debuted. And tantalisingly? The names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up. Strongly suggesting the Tau were an older force than believed, and at least traded with Necromunda.

Except….that thread was left flapping in the wind.

Fast forward a good couple of decades? And the Votann. Who are confirmed to have traded at least Ion tech with the Tau….

And the (slow, my slow) realisation that, perhaps, the Spyrers aren’t trading with the Tau at all. And never have. But it’s been the Votann all along. And from such trades with earlier Tau, Votanni terms for such rigs entered the Tau vocabulary…..

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Aaaah! Aaaaaaaah! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!

I’ve been all thick! I’ve failed to spot a certain trail of breadcrumbs! Because it is an old trail. One barely remembered.

See, in Necromunda, the Spyrers had battle rigs. Orrus, Malcadon, Yeld and Jakarta. Debuted in Outlanders.

A few years later, the Tau debuted. And tantalisingly? The names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up. Strongly suggesting the Tau were an older force than believed, and at least traded with Necromunda.

Except….that thread was left flapping in the wind.

Fast forward a good couple of decades? And the Votann. Who are confirmed to have traded at least Ion tech with the Tau….

And the (slow, my slow) realisation that, perhaps, the Spyrers aren’t trading with the Tau at all. And never have. But it’s been the Votann all along. And from such trades with earlier Tau, Votanni terms for such rigs entered the Tau vocabulary…..

Good spot. To add to that conjecture, the spyrer suits incorporate several things, mostly weapons, which are absent from the wider Tau armory, but common in the Votann forces: the bolt launchers in the Orrus' fists, laser weaponry of the Yeld, and various high-efficiency close combat weapons. All of these make much more sense as an offshoot of the Votann's STC technology.