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Lets not forget Epic 40K in part died because GW killed it within a year; meanwhlie once they brought it back it was under Forgeworld mail order only and, like BFG, once it was out of GW's system and in FW of that era it was very hidden and far less marketed.

GW today has more of a handle on specialist games and I think they've more of a view that its better for them to spread their range wider and hold more of the market than it is to have everything profit to maximum value. Which I think historically was always the problem with specialist games - they never outsold or came close to 40K/Old World/LotR.

The last two big edition updates for 40k 9th and AOS 3rd were both announced in May, however these were both during the peak of covid release schedule disruption.

40k 8th edition was first confirmed at Adepticon in late March 2017 which is probably more 'normal'. However details for that were kept fairly light until around a month later. I'm not expecting any major official details on 10E until Warhammerfest, but we should hear something next week.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
My friend had a lot of epic stuff back around 2000 or so and IIRC he had not only marines (both imperial and chaos) and guard but also eldar, nids and, orcs. So I don't see why people are saying that there were no xenos.

 Overread wrote:
Lets not forget Epic 40K in part died because GW killed it within a year; meanwhlie once they brought it back it was under Forgeworld mail order only and, like BFG, once it was out of GW's system and in FW of that era it was very hidden and far less marketed.

GW today has more of a handle on specialist games and I think they've more of a view that its better for them to spread their range wider and hold more of the market than it is to have everything profit to maximum value. Which I think historically was always the problem with specialist games - they never outsold or came close to 40K/Old World/LotR.

And despite all those handicaps it sold very well exceeding by far GW's expectations.

GW does it right and the demand is there. Of course whether GW does it right is another thing. Bad rules and too expensive is always possibility with GW.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Still makes sense that it was dangerous at first, but they have refined the process as they learned from early attempts.

Killing the patient to spark the Furnace is literally part of the process. It's not dangerous because they weren't used to doing it, it's dangerous because there's a chance the patient won't come back.

 Vermis wrote:

gorgon wrote:My position regarding Epic continues to be that I don't understand why GW would be keen to jump back into the 6mm tank and infantry space. Their competitive advantage is with bigger kits. There are plenty of third-party sculpts and 3D print designs available for the smaller units that look like their 28mm counterparts with a very good level of detail.

There's a pile of ashes and melted plastic that used to be a dark elf army, somewhere, that demonstrates how allergic some people can be to the air outside the protective GW bubble.

If GW release a new edition of epic, the playerbase will spike. At least until they're sat there with their working rules and complete armies and decide it's 'unsupported' again.

Will it though? If it's 30K-based and just adds some ground forces to the existing Titan and Imperial plane kits? I'm just not sure and I'm skeptical about some of the dot connection going on here. Seems like the same "Epic when?" that some corners of the fan base have shouted since AT was released.

But what do I know? Maybe there'll be a huge new Epic game announced, complete with a model of the Lion standing on top of an Imperator Titan. (The 40K Lion will be riding a plastic Thunderhawk like a surfboard, I'm sure.)

You don't get epic with xenos etc if you don"t start somewhere...

Epic didn't start originally with every faction originally either. Did players get dumber since then if it can't work now?

tneva82 wrote:
You don't get epic with xenos etc if you don"t start somewhere...

Epic didn't start originally with every faction originally either. Did players get dumber since then if it can't work now?

Depends which Epic. Epic 40K got Xenos pretty fast. The Titan Legions boxed set I got was Orks VS Imperials. So we are going WAY back to Epic or AT without Xenos.

now it CAN work - AT is already doing it right now. However I would wager that without Xenos and Chaos, the mirror-match element does have some detriment to sales and interest because you're just having constant mirror matches. Also don't forget the game is so much bigger than it was 30 years ago. There are whole chunks of the playerbase who have no interest in Imperial/Marine content, but they will lap up Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar and such.

Having zero Xenos/Chaos is cutting GW out of big chunks of the market. Plus those Imperial/Marine players 100% love having to something else to fight against and more interested people to play with.

 Overread wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You don't get epic with xenos etc if you don"t start somewhere...

Epic didn't start originally with every faction originally either. Did players get dumber since then if it can't work now?

Depends which Epic. Epic 40K got Xenos pretty fast. The Titan Legions boxed set I got was Orks VS Imperials. So we are going WAY back to Epic or AT without Xenos.

now it CAN work - AT is already doing it right now. However I would wager that without Xenos and Chaos, the mirror-match element does have some detriment to sales and interest because you're just having constant mirror matches. Also don't forget the game is so much bigger than it was 30 years ago. There are whole chunks of the playerbase who have no interest in Imperial/Marine content, but they will lap up Necrons, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar and such.

Having zero Xenos/Chaos is cutting GW out of big chunks of the market. Plus those Imperial/Marine players 100% love having to something else to fight against and more interested people to play with.

Yeah, original Epic from back before the Worldwide Web when GW was mostly making metal miniatures and probably had 200 employees worldwide. Expectations change, and they certainly didn't go that route in the '90s with Epic 40K like you said.

They can do it and they'll get sales, just like AT. But I'm pretty confident that it'd hold sales back...also like AT. GW did a nice job making the game not feel like a mirror match everytime you play. But it is one set of models. And there are clearly folks who are vocal about only being interested in their fave xenos faction OR just interested in playing ANYTHING other than Imperials. It's a valid viewpoint. Go down the list of Specialist Games and look for anything other than AT that only has one model range. Even AI has multiple ranges/factions.

But I'm not going to argue this anymore...it's pointless. Things will be what they will be.

There have been xenos titans almost from the start in December of 1988 even though it was originally set in the Heresy
White Dwarf 108 Adeptus Titanicus 1st edition announced
White Dwarf 109 warhound and reaver titans
White Dwarf 110 Eldar phantom titans
White Dwarf 116 Ork gargants

gorgon wrote:Seems like the same "Epic when?" that some corners of the fan base have shouted since AT was released.

I'm happy enough with 'Epic then', TBH, but I still think overall interest in Epic is going to rise if GW gives it an air of respectable officiality again.

Mildly interested to find out if proxy producers would see any sales upticks as a result, and if they'd provide that insight. Rising tides and all that.

gorgon wrote:But I'm not going to argue this anymore...it's pointless.

Well I'm wondering how a topic for an event still a week away is up to five pages already, so no need to feel especially superfluous.

Smaug wrote:There have been xenos titans almost from the start in December of 1988 even though it was originally set in the Heresy
...
White Dwarf 110 Eldar phantom titans

Funny, Dave Gallagher was posting something possibly relating to that on his instas.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpxE6QPtskZ/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

They could Start reboot EPIC with a HH Theme which they could expand to a Great Crusade Theme.

 gorgon wrote:

Yeah, original Epic from back before the Worldwide Web when GW was mostly making metal miniatures and probably had 200 employees worldwide. Expectations change, and they certainly didn't go that route in the '90s with Epic 40K like you said.

Duh. During epic40k they had models ready...

Doing same now from scratch? That's huge # of SKU's you expect them to release in brand new plastic right away? When game has got more factions and more units they need to cover and have switched from metal away(which makes adding stuff to range more expensive for game)? Yeah right.

It's hardly same as "let's take sprues we have already in production and add couple new plastic sprue and then some lot cheaper metal sku's and release game" to "let's produce about 100 new plastic sprue as a bare minimum from scratch and release a game".

You are suggesting turning more support to epic than 40k marines included has combined...Which is what they would need to do to provide full game right off the bat.

Or they could do like how they originally did. Little bit at a time. Which is still going to need to be faster pace than originally to match up seeing # of factions and # of units in game has exploded dramatically. There were no sicarans, skorpions, doomhammers, kratos, multiple dreadnought variants etc back in the day.

Depends how they do it.

If, and it is an if, they stick to the Original Epic Strategy? Most forces, if not all, can get their infantry done and dusted in just a couple of boxes. One for Line or Standard infantry equivalents, one for background rarer infantry etc.

As ever I’d love to see the cards based army selection of 2nd Ed Space Marine return. One card - One Blister when it comes to tanks and that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends how they do it.

If, and it is an if, they stick to the Original Epic Strategy? Most forces, if not all, can get their infantry done and dusted in just a couple of boxes. One for Line or Standard infantry equivalents, one for background rarer infantry etc.

As ever I’d love to see the cards based army selection of 2nd Ed Space Marine return. One card - One Blister when it comes to tanks and that.

And specialist games have been budgeted around one sprue per quarter generally. A bit more when they start out, or less as other specialist games need the production/release slots. And the increased scale/detail means a lot less models can fit per sprue.

I’m surprised this hasn’t been posted (unless I missed it). Nid symbol on the left so definitely looks like some kind of tease at least for 10th. I thought this would be more wrapping up Arks of Omen and 10th later but.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m surprised this hasn’t been posted (unless I missed it). Nid symbol on the left so definitely looks like some kind of tease at least for 10th. I thought this would be more wrapping up Arks of Omen and 10th later but.

The 9th edition teaser and animated trailer where 2 weeks apart so would be the same for 10th if they show it next week but since the Lion basically has to be shown here and Dante was also probably meant for Adepticon I don't know if that wouldn't have been a bit much? After all there is still AoS/Underworlds/HH/KillTeam so if they actually had all of this planned and the other 4 system don't just get a tiny teaser it would actually match GWs exaggerated marketing for once

tneva82 wrote:
Doing same now from scratch? That's huge # of SKU's you expect them to release in brand new plastic right away? When game has got more factions and more units they need to cover and have switched from metal away(which makes adding stuff to range more expensive for game)? Yeah right.

It's hardly same as "let's take sprues we have already in production and add couple new plastic sprue and then some lot cheaper metal sku's and release game" to "let's produce about 100 new plastic sprue as a bare minimum from scratch and release a game".

You are suggesting turning more support to epic than 40k marines included has combined...Which is what they would need to do to provide full game right off the bat.

Here's my last word on this.

If you actually read my posts, you'd see that I'm not actually making any demands on GW. I'm not sure why you're so intent on misrepresenting me.

So I'll lay this out very simply -- I'm skeptical that Epic will return in any form because a very limited game will have very limited appeal, while a full Epic relaunch would be almost like launching another core game (which it basically was back in the day). And the middle path -- slowplaying a build from limited monofaction to full ranges and multiple factions seems like it'd be such a long, drawn-out affair that they'd lose the attention of customers.

None of these options look like compelling business opportunities TO ME compared to other things they could be working on...so I'm skeptical about any kind of Epic return. But it all really depends on GW's business plan. A limited product may meet their goals. Or maybe they're on board with really blowing out Epic. I certainly didn't see HH getting this many plastic kits. GW sometimes surprises us. So as I said, whatever will be will be.

Epic could be pretty playable with as little as 1 sprue per faction if they settled for detail on about the same level as old sprues. With modern tooling it wouldn't be unthinkable to cram pretty much 1 of every unit on the same sprue. Tho judging from AI, a modern 8mm Rhino will probably come in 12 parts and take up half a sprue for some reason.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Epic could be pretty playable with as little as 1 sprue per faction if they settled for detail on about the same level as old sprues. With modern tooling it wouldn't be unthinkable to cram pretty much 1 of every unit on the same sprue. Tho judging from AI, a modern 8mm Rhino will probably come in 12 parts and take up half a sprue for some reason.

Out of curiosity I did a quick check:

An old Epic Rhino was around 21 x 14 x 10mm.
A new Deimos Rhino made at 25% scale like the other AT/AI models would be 30 x 20 x 15mm, so approximately 50% bigger.

That's certainly large enough for increased detail and probably multiple parts. I could even see them designing the model in a similar way to the HH vehicles, where the top hatch piece could be swapped out to become a predator, razorback, or whirlwind instead.

The issue with the epic rumor is that aeronautica did poorly, and titanicus is not a best seller. Moreover, 3d printing cuts into this type of stuff. I have seen lots of it. User created stuff. Epic, and bfg. Given that the game is not established, there is little to curb the 3d prints, such as tournaments, or a larger scene in which the 3d prints are frowned upon.

The 3D print isn't an issue though. The reason there's no formal events is because there's no formal support. If GW gave it formal support that means games in their stores; events with their sponsoring/support and such.

Ergo if they build it those things would come along just like in the other markets.




Just look at Bloodbowl. When GW relaunched it there were several competing 3rd parties making and selling physical models (way bigger market than STLs) and having run successful big funding Kickstarters.

That didn't stop GW pushing back into the market they'd created, if anything it meant when GW did it there was a dedicated fanbase already fired up for new GW models and new players and all.

Last Tarot Card for AoO 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm8Voe-aFE

Galaxy inversed - De Galaxis Profundi Invertus - But everything will change. Reality bleeds. Destiny sickens. The Galaxy grows dark, and darker still.

That sounds like the Imperium Nihilus might be falling to Chaos completely.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Last Tarot Card for AoO 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm8Voe-aFE

Galaxy inversed - De Galaxis Profundi Invertus - But everything will change. Reality bleeds. Destiny sickens. The Galaxy grows dark, and darker still.

That sounds like the Imperium Nihilus might be falling to Chaos completely.

GW is making the Dornian Hersey a reality, the universe is flipping

Or the good guys ar epushing back and the eye of terror is shrinking, just in time for the Tyranids to come to brunch.

 Theophony wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Last Tarot Card for AoO 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm8Voe-aFE

Galaxy inversed - De Galaxis Profundi Invertus - But everything will change. Reality bleeds. Destiny sickens. The Galaxy grows dark, and darker still.

That sounds like the Imperium Nihilus might be falling to Chaos completely.

GW is making the Dornian Hersey a reality, the universe is flipping

Or the good guys ar epushing back and the eye of terror is shrinking, just in time for the Tyranids to come to brunch.

It is of obvious significance that this last card -?- mirrors the first, which was 'Galaxy' with the text

'The Galaxy burns in the fire of ambition. Another round of the great game begins'.

You can read XX's text almost like an answer to that:

'But everything will change. Reality bleeds. Destiny sickens. The Galaxy grows dark, and darker still.'

What i'm getting at is that there's pretty much only one way to actually change the Great Game: add a new Warp God, or kill an existing one...

It's tarot card XX and everything isn't as it seems. Codex Alpha Legion confirmed?

I'd challenge the idea that if it relates to the Great Game, it has to revolve around a Chaos god like that. Tyranids mass nomming mortal followers without feeding the Chaos Gods and the Shadow in the Warp calming conflict because it hampers travel is another way of dousing the fires of ambition the Great Game revolves around. Given what we have all but confirmed about the Tyranids' role as 10th ed poster children, that could plausibly be a "move over, Chaos, we've got bigger problems now" message to wrap up the Chaos focused Arks arc and move on to the 10th ed story arc.

 Geifer wrote:
It's tarot card XX and everything isn't as it seems. Codex Alpha Legion confirmed?

I'd challenge the idea that if it relates to the Great Game, it has to revolve around a Chaos god like that. Tyranids mass nomming mortal followers without feeding the Chaos Gods and the Shadow in the Warp calming conflict because it hampers travel is another way of dousing the fires of ambition the Great Game revolves around. Given what we have all but confirmed about the Tyranids' role as 10th ed poster children, that could plausibly be a "move over, Chaos, we've got bigger problems now" message to wrap up the Chaos focused Arks arc and move on to the 10th ed story arc.

That would lean more on the 'Destiny sickens' part - there was supposed to be another Chaos God, but the 'nids ate them. Possible, possible.

I think the other cards for book 5 point more into the direction of another god, but they're so vague that they could basically be made to fit everything. Perhaps Vashtorr activates the Emperor's spare second Astronomican and thus attracts even more Tyranids to the Galaxy or something like that, prophecies are only obvious after the fact.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Last Tarot Card for AoO 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjm8Voe-aFE

Galaxy inversed - De Galaxis Profundi Invertus - But everything will change. Reality bleeds. Destiny sickens. The Galaxy grows dark, and darker still.

That sounds like the Imperium Nihilus might be falling to Chaos completely.

GW is making the Dornian Hersey a reality, the universe is flipping

Or the good guys ar epushing back and the eye of terror is shrinking, just in time for the Tyranids to come to brunch.

It is of obvious significance that this last card -?- mirrors the first, which was 'Galaxy' with the text

'The Galaxy burns in the fire of ambition. Another round of the great game begins'.

You can read XX's text almost like an answer to that:

'But everything will change. Reality bleeds. Destiny sickens. The Galaxy grows dark, and darker still.'

What i'm getting at is that there's pretty much only one way to actually change the Great Game: add a new Warp God, or kill an existing one...

Or shift the dynamic of the material universe enough that the games rules change. Nids and crons are the 2 things that might force chaos and the imperium into unity.

If all is eaten as biomass there is no warp presence/souls/food for the gods, with that they too would die.

 spaceelf wrote:
The issue with the epic rumor is that aeronautica did poorly, and titanicus is not a best seller. Moreover, 3d printing cuts into this type of stuff. I have seen lots of it. User created stuff. Epic, and bfg. Given that the game is not established, there is little to curb the 3d prints, such as tournaments, or a larger scene in which the 3d prints are frowned upon.

Warlord titan of course did sell better than pretty much everything

Dudeface wrote:


Or shift the dynamic of the material universe enough that the games rules change. Nids and crons are the 2 things that might force chaos and the imperium into unity.

If all is eaten as biomass there is no warp presence/souls/food for the gods, with that they too would die.

Question: is anyone aware of GW officially saying that the Tarot Cards will end with XX? So far we had 4 per book and we know that they are printing 5 books, but there is that 6th story that's going to be serialized in White Dwarf - i'd wager it's possible that that will get cards as well.

 gorgon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Doing same now from scratch? That's huge # of SKU's you expect them to release in brand new plastic right away? When game has got more factions and more units they need to cover and have switched from metal away(which makes adding stuff to range more expensive for game)? Yeah right.

It's hardly same as "let's take sprues we have already in production and add couple new plastic sprue and then some lot cheaper metal sku's and release game" to "let's produce about 100 new plastic sprue as a bare minimum from scratch and release a game".

You are suggesting turning more support to epic than 40k marines included has combined...Which is what they would need to do to provide full game right off the bat.

Here's my last word on this.

If you actually read my posts, you'd see that I'm not actually making any demands on GW. I'm not sure why you're so intent on misrepresenting me.

So I'll lay this out very simply -- I'm skeptical that Epic will return in any form because a very limited game will have very limited appeal, while a full Epic relaunch would be almost like launching another core game (which it basically was back in the day). And the middle path -- slowplaying a build from limited monofaction to full ranges and multiple factions seems like it'd be such a long, drawn-out affair that they'd lose the attention of customers.

None of these options look like compelling business opportunities TO ME compared to other things they could be working on...so I'm skeptical about any kind of Epic return. But it all really depends on GW's business plan. A limited product may meet their goals. Or maybe they're on board with really blowing out Epic. I certainly didn't see HH getting this many plastic kits. GW sometimes surprises us. So as I said, whatever will be will be.

Epic has big potential as it has shown every time gw sells it. Not releasing it means gw is missing money they could be raking in.

But full release just doesn't make any businness sense unless gw is in business of donating cash for charity.

Doing it like they did originally meanwhile works and is even more essential now than then.

Starting epic step by step is how gw makes crapload of money. Trying everything at once would require so much production either they need to stop 40k/aos/hh production for years or multiply their staff and equipment.