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World of Darkness Vampire the Masquerade for me chaps. Lovely system which focuses on cunning over dice rolling.

AD&D has never tickled my pickle. It’s just too abstract. Not gonna slag it off with it being the Grandaddy of them all. But it’s definitely all been done much better since.

Also the lack of a fixed world irks me on a level I can’t justify.

Traveller was vastly better than some oversized lizard in a cellar

Vampire the Masquerade was a very good set of rules that focused nicely on helping tell a story without getting in the way of the story

leopard wrote:
Vampire the Masquerade was a very good set of rules that focused nicely on helping tell a story without getting in the way of the story

And yet it got wrecked because the idiots in charge decided to do a Y2K countdown. Did they not see what happened to Third World War/Twilight 2000?!

The 90s version was the best version and it brought women into RPGs in yuuuge numbers. Broad-minded ones, with dark fantasies. Ah, those were the days...

But I digress. I shall yell at that cloud, right THERE. Begone, Ventrue scum!

 Easy E wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kids today will never know the joy of ditching D&D for an actually-good RPG, WEG Star Wars.

Exalted!

Oh very much yes...I believe I have all the books still...somewhere in the attic

leopard wrote:
Traveller was vastly better than some oversized lizard in a cellar

Vampire the Masquerade was a very good set of rules that focused nicely on helping tell a story without getting in the way of the story

Without Traveller, Firefly would probably never have happened (JW has stated he played an SF rpg during his 'college years' and given when that was, Traveller was more than likely *THAT* rpg) - and if you've seen it and/or played Traveller, they mesh like fishfingers and custard.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

leopard wrote:
Vampire the Masquerade was a very good set of rules that focused nicely on helping tell a story without getting in the way of the story

And yet it got wrecked because the idiots in charge decided to do a Y2K countdown. Did they not see what happened to Third World War/Twilight 2000?!

The 90s version was the best version and it brought women into RPGs in yuuuge numbers. Broad-minded ones, with dark fantasies. Ah, those were the days...

But I digress. I shall yell at that cloud, right THERE. Begone, Ventrue scum!

I cannot truly shout at clouds, as I have the 25th Anniversary Bumper Book.

Including digital copies.

But it is a wonderful, permissive system. For instance, just because you don’t have points in firearms or drive etc doesn’t mean you can’t attempt such mundane things. Because it recognises there’s a difference between being able to drive a car or shoot a gun, and doing those things safely, competently and efficiently.

Just the basic reasoning behind the masquerade (they massively outnumber us, we’d be in serious trouble if we tried anything) makes so much sense.

Granted our games tended to get out of hand (one of mine ended up 2nd Gen…) but man they were fun.

it was the main draw for me of GURPS, which was my main RPG for many years, "the Prisoner" was an excellent mind screw book for example

the idea that you have some default ability at most things was one a few players couldn't get their head around, ok make sure what you are trying is simple, and preferably not dangerous otherwise you learn why kids today hurt themselves

as a side note the lack of "classes" also made sense a wizard could quite easily pick up a sword and get laughed at by goblins as he hurt himself with it

Still loved the background of Vampire though

as with all it was amusing to try and create profiles for each other, and then argue about them

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


But it is a wonderful, permissive system. For instance, just because you don’t have points in firearms or drive etc doesn’t mean you can’t attempt such mundane things. Because it recognises there’s a difference between being able to drive a car or shoot a gun, and doing those things safely, competently and efficiently.

That really is not unusual. Even back it the day.

You usually defaulted back to an attribute if you did not have a skill.

leopard wrote:
it was the main draw for me of GURPS, which was my main RPG for many years, "the Prisoner" was an excellent mind screw book for example

the idea that you have some default ability at most things was one a few players couldn't get their head around, ok make sure what you are trying is simple, and preferably not dangerous otherwise you learn why kids today hurt themselves

as a side note the lack of "classes" also made sense a wizard could quite easily pick up a sword and get laughed at by goblins as he hurt himself with it

Still loved the background of Vampire though

as with all it was amusing to try and create profiles for each other, and then argue about them

The lack of classes is why I like In the Labyrinth and its descendant, GURPS. Class-based always felt wrong to me. Just because a person is of a certain profession doesn't mean they cannot learn something associated with an opposed skill set. Presumably if they had free choice of career they'll pick something suited to their innate talents, so intellectual types will become nuclear physicists or engineers, and physical types will become lifeguards and firefighters. But our nuclear physicist can still take up free-climbing. Yet in class-based systems anyone not a thief is prohibited from ever learning climbing.

Rolemaster combined the concepts of Class and Skill-driven. IIRC, you selected your class, and then taking the preset defaults, moved them around to set that character's personal costs to buy said skills of that class. So while a Wizard's magic skills were automatically set as the cheapest for advancement, other advancement costs were placed by the player. So you could have a Wizard who grew up a farm boy. Magic skills advance at a cost of 1 (set by the class), Climbing advances at 5 per point, 2 handed Weapons advance at 10 per point (he does know how to use an axe, since his parents had him cut the firewood), and somehow he met a Shaolin Monk and learned some martial arts defense techniques, so Adrenal Defense at 20 per point! [That last is real as our wizard did take Adrenal Defense and Bows, both at cost 20 and alternated skill points between them as he advanced.]

Still more GURPS characters should take some basic skills and not use defaults as suggested by this article, Everyday Skills by GURPS Line Editor "Dr. Kromm". Taking his point, converting myself to a contemporary GURPS character, I'd have Driving (Automobile), Computer Operation, Swimming at least, and maybe Hiking, Running and Fishing, but I've been a couch potato for so long that those may have rotted to their defaults. So the same argument goes for an original RPG character. "You say your character grew up on a farm, but your character doesn't have any skills that he'd have learned just growing up? If you want to min/max, I'll let you, but if your character suddenly needs Animal Handling, you do not get to say, "But he'd have learned that growing up on the farm!" and roll at higher than default. You want it, buy it."

GURPS rewarded sticking a dozen or so points in every day skills, way easier to get skill of DX or DX-1 than depend on DX-6 and "hilarity ensues"

VTM is also a pleasing challenge to be Story Teller for.

For instance, the Bloodline powers can lead to very unusual troupes. And it’s your job to ensure your players are suitably challenged, and they can all feel like they were able to provide some part of the group solution.

It’s also a very newbie friendly game. Not only are the mechanics quite simple to grasp (though I’d still recommend a dry run session or two so they can refine through experience), but the world itself is…our world. They have everything we have (or had, if like me you prefer pre-age of internet settings) but Magic and monsters are all too real. No lengthy reading needed. No half arsed primers required. No “you can’t do that because X” for behaviours etc.

Though I draw the line at Mage. Too esoteric for my tastes. Won’t run one, won’t play in one. Just not my bag.

My dream though is to load folk through a successful Prometheus campaign. But that is the Work Of Ages. Not only do you need mature players (Prometheans are difficult to portray) but players experienced in the setting to truly get the most out of it all. Not to mention that as it’s my job as Story Teller to set their milestones, I can’t make them too exotic or unattainable. At least at first.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Kids today will never know the joy of ditching D&D for an actually-good RPG, WEG Star Wars.

Was that the one where if you rolled a 1 on the wild die, the GM could rule you failed to tie your shoes?

Yeah, I had some fun with that one too!


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 chromedog wrote:

I remember Palladium mostly because I have artist friends who are still waiting to be paid for artwork that Kev commissioned and then reneged on the deal.

Yeah, that sounds about right for that bunch.


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leopard wrote:
Traveller was vastly better than some oversized lizard in a cellar

Vampire the Masquerade was a very good set of rules that focused nicely on helping tell a story without getting in the way of the story

Ah, Traveller. Great memories of characters dying during character creation. Good times.

Vampire was the only game I ever played not because I liked the game (I thought it was pretty mediocre) but to see what the ladies attending the game wore this week.

 Vulcan wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
Traveller was vastly better than some oversized lizard in a cellar

Vampire the Masquerade was a very good set of rules that focused nicely on helping tell a story without getting in the way of the story

Ah, Traveller. Great memories of characters dying during character creation. Good times.

Vampire was the only game I ever played not because I liked the game (I thought it was pretty mediocre) but to see what the ladies attending the game wore this week.

At least if you were using High Guard (the naval supplement for Traveller) for CharGen, it was possible to get a pilot character who could voluntarily take a huge penalty on survival and still auto-pass the survival roll. As a bonus, that character would still pass with such a margin that they'd win the highest military award of the Imperium! I was wondering what they did: stop the Third Solomani Rim War from even starting while drifting in an unarmed lifepod with no communications, weapons or life support?!

By the time the Scouts book came out, they'd toned it down a LOT! {Scouts was the book I was interested in.}

I have yet to play a V:TM game to conclusion. At least the ones I've joined the GM loses interest after two sessions.

Played the Renaissance version of Mage to conclusion and enjoyed that. What little I know of the contemporary Mage RPG I can see how it could be hard to get a feel for it.

 Vulcan wrote:
Vampire was the only game I ever played not because I liked the game (I thought it was pretty mediocre) but to see what the ladies attending the game wore this week.

Yes, a very different environment from the D&D crowd.

I think D&D was good at what it set out to do: small unit combat/raiding parties. The archetypes make character creation very easy and the "basic" game simply relied on the DM to discuss things with the players and use a relevant ability.

I didn't like GURPS because you had to do a lot more reading to build a character.

Vampire (and the Storyteller games) hit the sweet spot, because the game came with pre-made archetypes (complete with illustrations) that you could use right out of the box.

I think that was a big part of the appeal to the distaff side. Teenage boys thrive on complex rules - they are puzzles to be solved just as much as playing the game itself. Min-maxing was a challenge in and of itself.

For people more interested in the actual story, that was a huge turnoff.

The XP system was also geared towards story, and roleplaying rather than killing the monster and getting the treasure.

One thing I really liked was the way the power curve was relatively flat - yes, a 13th Gen vampire was lunch to an 8th Gen, but only to a point. It was a far cry from 1st level vs 10th level fighters.

 Valander wrote:
Battletech was a great game before the Clan Invasion stuff completely wrecked the balance. We used to build lances by tonnage, but 200 tons of Clams grossly overshadowed 200 tons of Inner Sphere every day. Why would anyone not play Clans, now? Totally killed the game.

(Yes, I played Battletech back in the day and remember when TRO 3050 first came out...)

Thank you for saying this. I can breathe again.
Although it didn’t quite kill the game, it definitely changed it to something different (and I think lesser) so we stayed with the older rules.

See also how Traveller was basically a tad upset by the assassination and then finished off by the "New Era"

flipping kids today and "improving" things

But, Folk Of Certain Undisclosed Vintage?

Is not the true test of a good RPG yarn, whether single session or long running chronicle…..Utterly Frustrating Your GM/DM/Story Teller with a super easy fix to what was meant to be a significant problem?

Ref me and the lads very nearly diabolirising The Big Bad At The Time when they compelled us to drink of them in an attempt to Blood Bind. We so very, very nearly got away with it. Pretty sure (and fair play, few plans can withstand Sheer Force Of Stupidity) the Story Teller fudged their dice. As is their right.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But, Folk Of Certain Undisclosed Vintage?

Is not the true test of a good RPG yarn, whether single session or long running chronicle…..Utterly Frustrating Your GM/DM/Story Teller with a super easy fix to what was meant to be a significant problem?

Ref me and the lads very nearly diabolirising The Big Bad At The Time when they compelled us to drink of them in an attempt to Blood Bind. We so very, very nearly got away with it. Pretty sure (and fair play, few plans can withstand Sheer Force Of Stupidity) the Story Teller fudged their dice. As is their right.

ahh yes the delight of basically recognising what film/book they were ripping off, then a simple solution like not stealing the car, or making sure the radios were working, or not splitting up etc

works nicely both ways when players get too crafty in reading source books, through them an adventure from another system, and pick a monster but change its appearance nad some of its behaviours

the fun on the smug bastards faces when they realise a goblin need not be a "level zero" character so to speak..

oh and after they walk into a bar, in full battle kit, and start asking strangers to pay them to do illegal things..

go all Sam Vimes on them

Oh we were just *a certain shade of clever*.

Granted the Chronicle that sticks in my mind was..20+ years ago? But man, the Troupe usually found something the Story Teller over looked!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh we were just *a certain shade of clever*.

Granted the Chronicle that sticks in my mind was..20+ years ago? But man, the Troupe usually found something the Story Teller over looked!

Amateur hour. True veteran players would refuse to follow any of the clues at all, utterly ignoring the plot in favor of engaging in pointlessly antagonizing NPCs and/or trying to leave the entire campaign area.

I recall one campaign where the party split on which adventure to do and because it was more of a pool of players than a tight-knit group (and people had other things going on), the majority switched every session. So one week, we're going into the caves, the next week we pull out and go into the haunted town.

The week after, that, the town quest is abandoned for the cave, but of course no sooner had we made a small amount of progress than the majority ran back to the town.

In my day, the measure of a player was how many DMs he'd driven mad.

Back in my day, players and GMs worked together to create a good time for everyone. Antagonizing each other was for Stratego, or worse, Monopoly.

in my day a GM learnt how to rule with a fist of steel and players unable to take a hint learnt..

while also keeping multiple potential plots open and freely swapping between them in a world where other things were happening

though in truth players, being players, were not hard to "guide" show where treasure or the chance to make things explode were waiting and off they went

this is except when playing Paranoia, where if they get to the briefing room without half their clones dead something has gone very wrong

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Back in my day, players and GMs worked together to create a good time for everyone. Antagonizing each other was for Stratego, or worse, Monopoly.

This is the grumpy thread. I'm not sure where the happy rainbow 'everyone got along' thread is, but I'll let you know if I see it, just after I finish yelling at this cloud...


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leopard wrote:
in my day a GM learnt how to rule with a fist of steel and players unable to take a hint learnt..

while also keeping multiple potential plots open and freely swapping between them in a world where other things were happening

though in truth players, being players, were not hard to "guide" show where treasure or the chance to make things explode were waiting and off they went

this is except when playing Paranoia, where if they get to the briefing room without half their clones dead something has gone very wrong

This is the correct approach. Kill a few characters outright. As a DM, I've thrown a thunderbolt from on high a time or two.

Because that's how things get done.

occasional thunderbolts as a "get on with it" work, a slightly more subtle way of some mahoosive monster gradually waking up and developing an interest works too

also helps if you have at least one or two players who see their character surviving while others sadly do not as a "no actual downside" situation

 Eilif wrote:


As someone getting close to Grognard age, the rest of the Wargaming world is pretty fantastic. I feel like I'm drowning in great affordable minis, wonderful affordable and fast playing rules sets and friendly gamers.

I can't even summon up the energy to be annoyed with all the premium games with minis I'd love but prices and rules I can't stomach. There's just too much other stuff I enjoy.

This ^^

I play cheap rules (I still play the original Rogue Trader rules when I can) with cheap miniatures. I paint them to a gameable standard. I My terrain is top down flat, which, while admittedly not quite as attractive, is infinitely better for allowing you to actually move your pieces around on the board.

I'm happy.

Now, does that mean I deride your lovingly crafted and painstakingly painted Bretonian army, and the handcrafted castle with working drawbridge? Of course not! Beautiful stuff is beautiful stuff!

But there is a certain beauty in the practical side of the hobby as well.

Good gaming to you all!

Lightning Claws.

They’re not what they used to be. Basically matched Powerfists (with the benefits that brought) and a pair of parries to add some bells and whistles.

My god you didn’t want to get into a punch up with Assault Terminators. Double parry tipped the odds even against really powerful characters, and they only needed a couple of successful hits to gut pretty much anything short of a Carnifex or Greater Daemon. Even they’d know they’d been in a fight and if they walked away, they’d be thinking twice about such incaution in future.

Then, as with so many things which used to be terrifying, 3rd Ed came along with its Wand Of Poodleification making them super weedy. Re-roll to hit is nice and that. But….gimme their 2nd Ed rules all the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for GMing? The balance is not rewarding bad behaviour, and not punishing Genuinely Inventive Solutions you hadn’t considered.

Fudge some dice here and there is fine. But just….not letting something work because you didn’t think of it isn’t. At least not to me. Your game. Your players. Your call

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lightning Claws.

They’re not what they used to be.

Kids these days have no idea what POWERFUL weapons are. Assault terminators with a pair of those bad boys gave just about anybody nightmares. Now it's all abstract things with airplanes flying around shooting at Johnny Socko's Giant Robot.

As for GMing? The balance is not rewarding bad behaviour, and not punishing Genuinely Inventive Solutions you hadn’t considered.

I'm questioning the Grognard status of some of you people. In my day DMs were petty tyrants and power-hungry bastards who used every dirty trick they could find to torment their players - who paid them back in the coin of endless rules-lawyering and the deliberate sabotage of every single plot element.

It was one thing to meta-game a TSR module, but to really rip the heart of out a DM, you had to completely wreck this painstakingly crafted home-brewed campaign - either by short-circuiting every plot device or just going on random killing sprees.

The DM in turn had to ride the fine line of killing off PCs with precision and care. If everyone realizes they're going to die, it's quite literally Game Over. Better to keep them perpetually wounded, starve them of potions and burn out all the magic in "random encounters" with legendary foes so that when they finally face the boss monster, they beg for clemency and pull out the "emergency" (i.e. comically loaded) dice.

Kids these days think of roleplaying games as a collaborative exercise in storytelling. In my day, it was the Nerd Thunderdome - only with a higher body count. The party wasn't a brave fellowship, but a bunch of treacherous treasure hunters, just waiting to drive a shiv into each other's back. Fighters existed to beat up magic-users - or conveniently let a monster "slip through" their fighting line to administer needed punishment.

Magic-users bided their time, knowing that once they got into the "teen" levels, they could kill everyone in the party at a whim. Thieves honed their back-stabbing skills on the night watch, and clerics blackmailed everyone, hoarding all the healing spells for themselves.

I remember back to time when TSR emphatically asserted "THERE ARE NO DARK ELVES," before bowing the knee before the Spider Queen. An age of half-ogre-half-elf-half-orc hybrids, multi-classed monk/barbarian/assassin/anti-paladin/magic-users of chaotic neutral alignment with evil tendencies that could nevertheless wield a +5 Holy Avenger thanks to a dispensation from the Platinum Dragon.

Munchkins roamed in great herds back then, their thick glasses flashing like foxfire as they bored you with hour after hour of their mindless cheaty exploits. If you don't know the taste of Jolt, if you haven't eaten a pound of Smarties at a single sitting, if you haven't itemized each and every hit your character took for the last three years, I pity you, for you have never truly lived.

Or, conversely, you actually had a life.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Back in my day, players and GMs worked together to create a good time for everyone. Antagonizing each other was for Stratego, or worse, Monopoly.

Diplomacy. The king of piss-everyone-else-off games.

 chromedog wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Back in my day, players and GMs worked together to create a good time for everyone. Antagonizing each other was for Stratego, or worse, Monopoly.

Diplomacy. The king of piss-everyone-else-off games.

You needed a certain level of detachment to play Dip and still be friends afterwards. There is no blaming the dice, the cards, or anything. You did what you needed to to to win, and often that involved betrayal. Sometimes you helped with one hand, stabbed with the other. Glorious. My old gaming group in Louisville played it periodically, with only a little bad blood generated. But they were more wargamers who would sometimes have an RPG game going. My NY group only tried it once, and still talks bitterly about it to this day. But with one exception besides myself, they were more roleplayers who would sometimes wargame. Different mindset.

Also great for Play By Mail. I think I’ve got old ‘zines and correspondence in my Dip box. Good old paper and stamps (although we did shift to e-mail after it was more widespread)

 chromedog wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Back in my day, players and GMs worked together to create a good time for everyone. Antagonizing each other was for Stratego, or worse, Monopoly.

Diplomacy. The king of piss-everyone-else-off games.

*goes misty eyed*

the "colonial" version was also excellent

heard it described as a game to play with six people you no longer wished to be friends with

great fun when there are a couple or two playing, or even worse a pair who are not a couple but one or both want to be