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If it's sudden death you're worried about, I don't think 3 flyers are a problem. Hemlocks do so much damage relative to Wave Serpents that they absolutely have to be dealt with. Not being able to hold objectives is a bigger issue, yeah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's important to realize that the Iyanden trait is worse for basically everything than the Ulthwe trait.

Consider a Wraithlord. 10 wounds, with profiles at 1-2, 3-5, and 6-10. I'm going to talk here about "damage" pre-FNP rolls, and for convenience I'll just be relying on "probably"s and expected values, but nothing much is going to change if we do a more rigorous analysis.

Both Craftworlds' WLs are still the same with up to 4 damage taken.

With 5 damage taken, the Iyanden one is always still on its first profile. But the Ulthwe one is probably still on its first profile too -- if it passed a single one of its 5 FNPs it will still have 6 wounds left to the Iyanden's 5.

With 6 or 7 damage taken, the Iyanden one is still on its first profile while the Ulthwe one is very likely to be on its second.

With 8 damage taken, both are very likely to be on their second profile.

With 9 damage taken, the Iyanden WL will be on its last profile while the Ulthwe one has about a 50% chance of still being on its second profile.

With 10 damage taken, the Iyanden WL is dead, while the Ulthwe WL is almost certainly still alive, probably on its last profile.

With 11 damage taken the Iyanden WL is still dead, while the Ulthwe one is probably still alive.

So the Iyanden WL only actually has a clear advantage over the Ulthwe WL for 2 possible amounts of damage taken, while the Ulthwe WL has a clear advantage for 3 possible amounts of damage taken. And of course the Ulthwe one is just 20% more durable.

Dionysodorus wrote:
If it's sudden death you're worried about, I don't think 3 flyers are a problem. Hemlocks do so much damage relative to Wave Serpents that they absolutely have to be dealt with. Not being able to hold objectives is a bigger issue, yeah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's important to realize that the Iyanden trait is worse for basically everything than the Ulthwe trait.

Consider a Wraithlord. 10 wounds, with profiles at 1-2, 3-5, and 6-10. I'm going to talk here about "damage" pre-FNP rolls, and for convenience I'll just be relying on "probably"s and expected values, but nothing much is going to change if we do a more rigorous analysis.

Both Craftworlds' WLs are still the same with up to 4 damage taken.

With 5 damage taken, the Iyanden one is always still on its first profile. But the Ulthwe one is probably still on its first profile too -- if it passed a single one of its 5 FNPs it will still have 6 wounds left to the Iyanden's 5.

With 6 or 7 damage taken, the Iyanden one is still on its first profile while the Ulthwe one is very likely to be on its second.

With 8 damage taken, both are very likely to be on their second profile.

With 9 damage taken, the Iyanden WL will be on its last profile while the Ulthwe one has about a 50% chance of still being on its second profile.

With 10 damage taken, the Iyanden WL is dead, while the Ulthwe WL is almost certainly still alive, probably on its last profile.

With 11 damage taken the Iyanden WL is still dead, while the Ulthwe one is probably still alive.

So the Iyanden WL only actually has a clear advantage over the Ulthwe WL for 2 possible amounts of damage taken, while the Ulthwe WL has a clear advantage for 3 possible amounts of damage taken. And of course the Ulthwe one is just 20% more durable.

Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.

The result is going to be basically the same.

Wave Serpent with profiles at 1-3, 4-6, and 7-13:
Both are probably on their first profile for 0-7 damage taken.
Iyanden is on its first profile while Ulthwe is probably on its second for 8-9 damage taken
Both are probably on their second profile for 10-11 damage taken.
Both are probably on their third profile for 12 damage taken.
Iyanden is dead while Ulthwe is probably alive for 13-15 damage taken.

So Ulthwe is better for 3 amounts of damage taken while Iyanden is only better for 2, and in addition to Ulthwe keeping its offense better at low wounds it's also 20% more durable.

You have to have some very specific priorities where it's just really, really important that you stay on your first profile as long as possible and then you don't care at all that your stuff is dying a lot faster in order to prefer Iyanden.

Drake003 wrote:
Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.

Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.

The result is going to be basically the same.

Wave Serpent with profiles at 1-3, 4-6, and 7-13:
Both are probably on their first profile for 0-7 damage taken.
Iyanden is on its first profile while Ulthwe is probably on its second for 8-9 damage taken
Both are probably on their second profile for 10-11 damage taken.
Both are probably on their third profile for 12 damage taken.
Iyanden is dead while Ulthwe is probably alive for 13-15 damage taken.

So Ulthwe is better for 3 amounts of damage taken while Iyanden is only better for 2, and in addition to Ulthwe keeping its offense better at low wounds it's also 20% more durable.

You have to have some very specific priorities where it's just really, really important that you stay on your first profile as long as possible and then you don't care at all that your stuff is dying a lot faster in order to prefer Iyanden.

Given the number of games that are over by Turn 3, I tend to prioritize maximum capability. With d6 damage weapons being the weapons most commonly used to take out my Wraithlords, the extra 6+ save doesn't seem as amazing to me. A couple of lascannon shots on a wraithlord will often result in overkill. But maybe I'm wrong.

My biggest beef with the Ulthwe and Iyanden traits is that they only significantly help vehicles.

 dahayden wrote:

Drake003 wrote:
Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.

Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.

A poorly worded question in the Space marine Index, with a poorly answer (that didn't bothered to even check the datasheet) on a FAQ shows clear shadows about it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.

The result is going to be basically the same.

Wave Serpent with profiles at 1-3, 4-6, and 7-13:
Both are probably on their first profile for 0-7 damage taken.
Iyanden is on its first profile while Ulthwe is probably on its second for 8-9 damage taken
Both are probably on their second profile for 10-11 damage taken.
Both are probably on their third profile for 12 damage taken.
Iyanden is dead while Ulthwe is probably alive for 13-15 damage taken.

So Ulthwe is better for 3 amounts of damage taken while Iyanden is only better for 2, and in addition to Ulthwe keeping its offense better at low wounds it's also 20% more durable.

You have to have some very specific priorities where it's just really, really important that you stay on your first profile as long as possible and then you don't care at all that your stuff is dying a lot faster in order to prefer Iyanden.

I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?

Lord Perversor wrote:

 dahayden wrote:

Drake003 wrote:
Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.

Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.

A poorly worded question in the Space marine Index, with a poorly answer (that didn't bothered to even check the datasheet) on a FAQ shows clear shadows about it.

It's listed as an ability. And on Facebook today, the community folks said this about the Hemlock's spirit stones: "Hi Stephanie, as the rule is written it looks like you wouldn't be able to stack the saves. It's still pretty cool to get a 10 point upgrade for free on all your vehicles though!"

I believe I read somewhere else that they said you don't need to pay for the Spirit Stones.

 dahayden wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

 dahayden wrote:

Drake003 wrote:
Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.

Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.

A poorly worded question in the Space marine Index, with a poorly answer (that didn't bothered to even check the datasheet) on a FAQ shows clear shadows about it.

It's listed as an ability. And on Facebook today, the community folks said this about the Hemlock's spirit stones: "Hi Stephanie, as the rule is written it looks like you wouldn't be able to stack the saves. It's still pretty cool to get a 10 point upgrade for free on all your vehicles though!"

I believe I read somewhere else that they said you don't need to pay for the Spirit Stones.

Another proof of GW half doing things.

This is the question:
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the points values section) must be paid for in the same way as a model’s weapons.

Funny thing, in the spanish version of the same document, i found that question do not exist but they included an errata telling you to add a Combat shield for Champions on his built in wargear, errata they ignored to add on the English version too...

My personal position is that you not need to pay for built in Abilities like those but be wary some people may disagree due the FAq answering.

P.S: now let's focus in rumours and news instead rules lawyering

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?

I guess you could give them that. That's 10 points each on a whole bunch of models that you're effectively paying for the Iyanden Attribute, plus then the transported models also have to be Iyanden with an inferior Attribute. I don't think it's a good idea as-is to give Spirit Stones to Wave Serpents unless they're carrying really expensive stuff, so this doesn't seem appealing to me. Like, do you really find that Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones degrade so quickly that you're willing to give up another Attribute or 10 points per model to keep them shooting better (but not alive) for longer?

Also look at what happens if you have multiple units. If I have 3 WLs, then, sure, as the first one is taking damage the two Attributes are pretty similar. But when the second Ulthwe WL dies, the last Iyanden WL is already down to 6 wounds. Because Ulthwe is boosting your offense only as a side effect of buffing your durability, everything except the unit that your opponent fires at first degrades slower than Iyanden units do, just because the first unit took more shooting to kill.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?

I guess you could give them that. That's 10 points each on a whole bunch of models that you're effectively paying for the Iyanden Attribute, plus then the transported models also have to be Iyanden with an inferior Attribute. I don't think it's a good idea as-is to give Spirit Stones to Wave Serpents unless they're carrying really expensive stuff, so this doesn't seem appealing to me. Like, do you really find that Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones degrade so quickly that you're willing to give up another Attribute or 10 points per model to keep them shooting better (but not alive) for longer?

Also look at what happens if you have multiple units. If I have 3 WLs, then, sure, as the first one is taking damage the two Attributes are pretty similar. But when the second Ulthwe WL dies, the last Iyanden WL is already down to 6 wounds. Because Ulthwe is boosting your offense only as a side effect of buffing your durability, everything except the unit that your opponent fires at first degrades slower than Iyanden units do, just because the first unit took more shooting to kill.

I didn't only list Wave Serpents. Specifically Iyanden will benefit any/all vehicles that degrade.

 dahayden wrote:

It's listed as an ability. And on Facebook today, the community folks said this about the Hemlock's spirit stones: "Hi Stephanie, as the rule is written it looks like you wouldn't be able to stack the saves. It's still pretty cool to get a 10 point upgrade for free on all your vehicles though!"

I believe I read somewhere else that they said you don't need to pay for the Spirit Stones.

The Facebook comments haven't really been reliable in the past, and are certainly trumped by actual FAQs and errata.

The Company Champion erratum is an unfortunate one, he really shouldn't pay for Combat Shield, but there is a significant likelyhood that it means we're supposed to pay ten extra points for the Hemlock. The situations are analogous.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?

I guess you could give them that. That's 10 points each on a whole bunch of models that you're effectively paying for the Iyanden Attribute, plus then the transported models also have to be Iyanden with an inferior Attribute. I don't think it's a good idea as-is to give Spirit Stones to Wave Serpents unless they're carrying really expensive stuff, so this doesn't seem appealing to me. Like, do you really find that Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones degrade so quickly that you're willing to give up another Attribute or 10 points per model to keep them shooting better (but not alive) for longer?

Also look at what happens if you have multiple units. If I have 3 WLs, then, sure, as the first one is taking damage the two Attributes are pretty similar. But when the second Ulthwe WL dies, the last Iyanden WL is already down to 6 wounds. Because Ulthwe is boosting your offense only as a side effect of buffing your durability, everything except the unit that your opponent fires at first degrades slower than Iyanden units do, just because the first unit took more shooting to kill.

You are starting to convince me Ulthwe is better, thus overturning my snap judgment. Stop using logic against me! I only have a 6++ vs logical appeals.

The Ulthwe trait has rubbish synergy with Fortune, unless of course they changed it. Bit of a shame, though I suppose in this edition you can just skip that power for others.
--
I'd really like to see Battle Focus reworked with this codex so it can at least somewhat compete with SfD... Its just so inferior right now.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I didn't only list Wave Serpents. Specifically Iyanden will benefit any/all vehicles that degrade.

Yeah, sure. But Spirit Stones are only just worthwhile on any grav tank, even if they're actually good. It's a 17% increase in survivability for a 10 point increase in cost. Their breakeven is on a ~125 point unit, so you're not getting that much out of them up to about 200 points. We established earlier that a 6+ FNP is substantially better than the Iyanden Attribute. Offhand I'd put it at about twice as good. So maybe you're willing to buy Spirit Stones in order to get the Iyanden Attribute if the unit costs ~250 points? I guess for some of the FW tanks this makes sense. Of course, if Alatoic is really -1 to hit past 12" then in any case like this you would just be deciding between Ulthwe and Alatoic (and then Spirit Stones for the 6+ FNP).

Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.

Wayniac wrote:
Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.

Guard does seem like the codex the dev team spent the last year working on, day in and day out, putting in long days. Space Marines were done by the night shift, burning the midnight oil and the occasional weekend. Other codices were just copied and pasted from Marines by the janitor using notepad.

Niiru wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.

Guard does seem like the codex the dev team spent the last year working on, day in and day out, putting in long days. Space Marines were done by the night shift, burning the midnight oil and the occasional weekend. Other codices were just copied and pasted from Marines by the janitor using notepad.

HAHAHA. Have an exalt.

Wayniac wrote:
Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.

I mean, the actual Attributes themselves are straightforwardly better than pretty much anything Guard got. Iyanden's is strictly superior to Valhalla's doctrine. Ulthwe's is far better than the AdMech FNP dogma, since it works well with multi-wound models. Guard really doesn't have anything that approaches 6+ FNP in all-around usefulness. Maybe the vehicle component of the Catachan one?

What really sets the Guard codex apart power-wise is that tons of things were (aggressively) re-pointed, particular underperformers like Leman Russes and Baneblades got significant new abilities, and they have an incredibly good generic warlord trait with great relics. It's really too soon to say how the Eldar codex measures up here. I think all we know is that Guardians and Wraithguard are the same price, and Wraithguard were already pretty good and got buffed to T6.

What really sets the Guard codex apart thoughtfulness-wise is that few of the 8 regiments are outright bad or clearly worse than others, and in addition to all the usual stuff they get regiment-specific orders. Here things are looking pretty grim for Eldar, with just 5 Craftworlds, and of the two we know about one seems almost strictly inferior to the other.

Niiru wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.

Guard does seem like the codex the dev team spent the last year working on, day in and day out, putting in long days. Space Marines were done by the night shift, burning the midnight oil and the occasional weekend. Other codices were just copied and pasted from Marines by the janitor using notepad.

Nice.

Typically what sets Craftworlds apart is the synergies of the psychic powers (which GW hasn't shown us yet) stacking with everything else.

Guardians hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, plus Doom, plus who knows what else...and 80 point unit with an unimpressive statline can erase units worth several times its own cost.

Iyanden may still be the way to go for Wave Serpents and the like. You can mimic the Ulthwe ability with just a 10 point upgrade on your vehicles. Sure, that is 10 points you could save by using a different craftworld, but you could not copy the effects of the Iyanden perk elsewhere.

Another potential problem with the Ulthwe perk is that as it is currently written (and will hopefully change) you cannot cast Fortune on any Ulthwe units. Fortune cannot be cast on anything that has a preexisting ability to ignore wounds. I'd say the rolls had to be similar but the Ulthwe ability made it clear that they can differ (by mentioning the Ghosthelm). So Ulthwe has to use Fortune-lite for the entire army and currently cant focus protection on any given unit.

That said, Fortune is fairly meh compared to Guide and Doom. But with powers only being able to be cast once, you want each option to have more mileage. Probably why cruddy Mind War got a mention as a useful power for Ulthwe.

It's not like you're going to cast Fortune on a Wave Serpent, though. And Serpents don't get much out of damage table resistance since their shooting is pretty poor. I really don't think I'd be willing to pay 10 points for each Serpent to get damage table resistance. Surely the effect is worth a lot less than a 6+ FNP even for things that do shoot well. I'd probably take a 5 point wargear option to get damage table resistance on a ~150 point Fire Prism, assuming it's otherwise decent.

It's true that the Ulthwe Attribute doesn't seem to be compatible with Fortune on Wraithguard or Shining Spears or Wraithknights, and that's a significant disadvantage if you're planning on doing something involving one big unit like that.

Goobi2 wrote:
Iyanden may still be the way to go for Wave Serpents and the like. You can mimic the Ulthwe ability with just a 10 point upgrade on your vehicles. Sure, that is 10 points you could save by using a different craftworld, but you could not copy the effects of the Iyanden perk elsewhere.

Another potential problem with the Ulthwe perk is that as it is currently written (and will hopefully change) you cannot cast Fortune on any Ulthwe units. Fortune cannot be cast on anything that has a preexisting ability to ignore wounds. I'd say the rolls had to be similar but the Ulthwe ability made it clear that they can differ (by mentioning the Ghosthelm). So Ulthwe has to use Fortune-lite for the entire army and currently cant focus protection on any given unit.

That said, Fortune is fairly meh compared to Guide and Doom. But with powers only being able to be cast once, you want each option to have more mileage. Probably why cruddy Mind War got a mention as a useful power for Ulthwe.

That's my idea, currently. Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, maybe some other tanks. Depending on any buffs/changes to tanks it'll only be that much more interesting. Especially if the shields actually provide an INV save until their spent, etc. We'll see.

I know very little of Eldar, but these changes and new things are neat and are making me interested.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Typically what sets Craftworlds apart is the synergies of the psychic powers (which GW hasn't shown us yet) stacking with everything else.

Guardians hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, plus Doom, plus who knows what else...and 80 point unit with an unimpressive statline can erase units worth several times its own cost.

It's not really 80 points when you have an Autarch and a Farseer baby sitting it. In fact, it's still worse than just two 80 point units of Guardians.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Typically what sets Craftworlds apart is the synergies of the psychic powers (which GW hasn't shown us yet) stacking with everything else.

Guardians hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, plus Doom, plus who knows what else...and 80 point unit with an unimpressive statline can erase units worth several times its own cost.

It's not really 80 points when you have an Autarch and a Farseer baby sitting it. In fact, it's still worse than just two 80 point units of Guardians.

This^ I dont mind doing that for 10 Shadow Specters, b.c they are good and worth it, A unit or 2 troops with low damage/movement/survivability

spelling

I'm not seeing anything in these previews that makes me want to not go Ynnari...

(That's assuming there's even some balancing factor)

Biel-Tan is up, more or less confirms the image making the rounds for the final two craftworlds. Can't say I'm too impressed. The fallback stratagem is army wide and looks good. But the Biel-Tan specific one is lacklustre to say the least. Their attribute matches up with the others we've seen as strictly 'okay'.

The Biel-tan Attribute is garbage. +1 Ld for Aspects is basically irrelevant. Re-rolling hits of 1 with shuriken weaponry is only even potentially that useful on a small number of units, and you get the same impact from an Autarch (and the Autarch buffs all kinds of attacks).

Maybe there is a case for taking a small Biel-tan Battalion consisting of psykers, triple shuriken cannon Serpents, and Guardians or Dire Avengers. Certainly no Autarch or other Aspects or other grav tanks. Serpents with cheap Troops are durable and unthreatening enough that maybe you'd rather the small increase in firepower instead of the defensive benefit of the Ulthwe or Alatoic Attributes. Though of course Ulthwe could have just used its Black Guardians stratagem to increase a Guardian squad's firepower by more, and that stacks with an Autarch.

Very disappointing.

My suspicion is that this codex is going to be very tame compared to the previous releases.

The old dynamic isn't here. Phil Kelly doesn't get to jack off onto blank paper and then turn it in as "the new Eldar codex" anymore. There's a team working on this that is very conciencious about the power level Eldar have enjoyed throughout the years.

I expect this release to be thoroughly middle of the pack in regards to competitive viability.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
My suspicion is that this codex is going to be very tame compared to the previous releases.

The old dynamic isn't here. Phil Kelly doesn't get to jack off onto blank paper and then turn it in as "the new Eldar codex" anymore. There's a team working on this that is very conciencious about the power level Eldar have enjoyed throughout the years.

I expect this release to be thoroughly middle of the pack in regards to competitive viability.

I don't care a whole lot about overall power level as long as it's not unplayable. I would just have liked to see decent internal balance. Unfortunately it appears that 2 of the Craftworlds are far and away better than the other 3. Like, if the idea was "let's not give Eldar anything too good" then it's just crazy to put out Attributes like Iyanden's and Biel-tan's and then give Alatoic the Raven Guard tactic (the pic that was going around seems to be pretty much confirmed at this point, but regardless Ulthwe's is also far better than the other two officially-announced ones). It's just very hard to believe that anyone actually spent significant amounts of time looking at these Attributes and decided that yes these are fluffy and reasonably balanced against each other.