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ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

2 squads of lasgun wielding basic infantry. 90ish points for two extra turns of safe shooting while the enemy carves through them. You can make it a couple conscript squads and watch you entire list go unmolested as the other player freaks out and attempts to destroy this phantom threat they've heard about.

I don't see how you'd beat Sisters/Ministorum with Genestealer Cults. 12" twin-heavy flamer razorback equivalents firing overwatch, all with invulnerable saves, and a scout move. I don't play GSC so I could be off base here, but how would you overcome this? You can make 1 of those vehicles not fire overwatch, yes, but then the other 4-5 are going to just toast your face off.
Anyway.

Casual games @ 2000 points. (Casual means i don't bring storm ravens, imperial knights, Celestine, or other nasty things).

Grey Knights vs Tau - Grey Knights victory.

Was a tough game. Opponent underestimated charging through ruins and deep striking to charge without line of sight (a new 8th rule). He made a few tactical errors, things like drone position, allowed me to smite them off the board to soften his models for bigger guns. Bunched up some stuff and ate 7 hits from a vortex of doom. He still killed a lot of GK though - including a land raider, razorback, and some strike squads. He deployed some stuff into cover, but astral aim doesn't care. He shot a lot off of the board, though.

Grey Knights vs Blood Angels - Grey Knights victory

He seized the initiative (argh!) and I lost over 500 points the first turn. First-to-the-fray GMNDK slaughtered 2 quad-las predators and a baal predator, and I was able to shoot down his raven with no dedicated anti-air. Rolling 6's to hit with a degraded Lazorback really helped, too. He made some tactical errors and he invested far too many points into death company.

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't see how you'd beat Sisters/Ministorum with Genestealer Cults. 12" twin-heavy flamer razorback equivalents firing overwatch, all with invulnerable saves, and a scout move. I don't play GSC so I could be off base here, but how would you overcome this? You can make 1 of those vehicles not fire overwatch, yes, but then the other 4-5 are going to just toast your face off.
Anyway.

Casual games @ 2000 points. (Casual means i don't bring storm ravens, imperial knights, Celestine, or other nasty things).

Grey Knights vs Tau - Grey Knights victory.

Was a tough game. Opponent underestimated charging through ruins and deep striking to charge without line of sight (a new 8th rule). He made a few tactical errors, things like drone position, allowed me to smite them off the board to soften his models for bigger guns. Bunched up some stuff and ate 7 hits from a vortex of doom. He still killed a lot of GK though - including a land raider, razorback, and some strike squads. He deployed some stuff into cover, but astral aim doesn't care. He shot a lot off of the board, though.

Grey Knights vs Blood Angels - Grey Knights victory

He seized the initiative (argh!) and I lost over 500 points the first turn. First-to-the-fray GMNDK slaughtered 2 quad-las predators and a baal predator, and I was able to shoot down his raven with no dedicated anti-air. Rolling 6's to hit with a degraded Lazorback really helped, too. He made some tactical errors and he invested far too many points into death company.

Lead the charge with a Trygon, the Immolator can't hurt aTrygon.

Also, they only do 2d6 hits, which is nothing anyway if you're a squad of 20 'stealers.

Because all the 'stealers are in hiding in reserve, they can't be shot at until after they arrived. First opportunity to engage is when firing overwatch. Anything with <9" range is useless, and anything that isn't a flamer might as well not exist. Sure, a Meltagun may cook a Genestealer, but as yourself: do you really care? You have 20 of them. And even 2d6 isn't particularly consequential, since it'll cook about 4 on average. Then you charge and blow the tank up, pretty straightforward stuff.


Overwatch is basically a non-factor. It's easy to completely shut down in the first place, and it doesn't tend to do any real damage even if you don't. Only Flamers are worth anything in Overwatch, and they've been carefully calibrated to ensure that they're completely worthless as well in the task.


Anything that keeps it's heavy hitters in reserve counters immo-dominions, because Dominions aren't exactly tough, and they have to get out of their tanks to fight.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

Screen your tanks. 100 Conscripts is a pretty decent number.

You don't want too many, but you don't want too few. Too many and you end up lean on firepower, too few and they don't make an adequate barricade. I wouldn't go less than about 70 bodies, and wouldn't go more than about 150.

Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

Screen your tanks. 100 Conscripts is a pretty decent number.

You don't want too many, but you don't want too few. Too many and you end up lean on firepower, too few and they don't make an adequate barricade. I wouldn't go less than about 70 bodies, and wouldn't go more than about 150.

1. I don't own that many infantry models. I could do maybe 60 or 70? I'll have to recount. And then I usually field Pask +2 tank commanders, a bunch of manticores, maybe some hellhounds.
2. Kinda defeats the purpose of armored company having that much infantry.

I tried having 4 naked infantry squads set up in front of my tanks, but sisters don't care. Celestine and the seraphim flew over my screen turn 1, melta'd my tanks, and locked in combat with whatever survived. And the rest of the army just bolstered down what infantry I had. 4 infantry clearly not enough? Maybe. But at that point I think it's cleared armored company doesn't work.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

Eh, not really. 12" HF doesn't do anything. It's not high enough AP to kill marines, and it's not enough shots to kill 'gaunts or 'stealers, it's at most a minor inconvenience. Well, it's infinitely more dangerous than an 8" range HF, because a potential to do anything is higher than being out of range, but it's not really going to be doing much.

I'd say to keep in mind that the Immolator is without a doubt worse than a Razorback. It does what it needs to do good enough though.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

Eh, not really. 12" HF doesn't do anything. It's not high enough AP to kill marines, and it's not enough shots to kill 'gaunts or 'stealers, it's at most a minor inconvenience. Well, it's infinitely more dangerous than an 8" range HF, because a potential to do anything is higher than being out of range, but it's not really going to be doing much.

I'd say to keep in mind that the Immolator is without a doubt worse than a Razorback. It does what it needs to do good enough though.

How have they worked for you in the ITC format, with maelstrom + eternal war? Have you been doing well in tournaments? I feel like the scout move, the invuln, and the 12" flamer are solid. So do the competitive guys running them that I speak with.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Imperial guard (me) vs primaris marines - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs death guard - win for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs sisters of battle - loss for guard
imperial guard (me) vs imperial guard - loss for guard (me)

I keep trying to make armored company work. It doesn't. Tanks get a max 1 turn of firing before competent armies lock them in combat and make them 100% useless.

Screen your tanks. 100 Conscripts is a pretty decent number.

You don't want too many, but you don't want too few. Too many and you end up lean on firepower, too few and they don't make an adequate barricade. I wouldn't go less than about 70 bodies, and wouldn't go more than about 150.

1. I don't own that many infantry models. I could do maybe 60 or 70? I'll have to recount. And then I usually field Pask +2 tank commanders, a bunch of manticores, maybe some hellhounds.
2. Kinda defeats the purpose of armored company having that much infantry.

I tried having 4 naked infantry squads set up in front of my tanks, but sisters don't care. Celestine and the seraphim flew over my screen turn 1, melta'd my tanks, and locked in combat with whatever survived. And the rest of the army just bolstered down what infantry I had. 4 infantry clearly not enough? Maybe. But at that point I think it's cleared armored company doesn't work.

4 naked infantry squads is a waste of points. Don't use infantry if you're not buying them a Heavy or Special Weapon, because Conscripts do the same "absorb bullets" thing for 1 point less per model. Since the infantry only gets to fire in overwatch and won't live long enough for more than a handful to fight back in melee, at best, the inferior Conscript BS doesn't matter.


As far as not getting locked up by Celestine and Seraphim, set your tanks back behind your infantry. The first rank of guys is set 4.5" in front of the second rank, which is as far in front of the tanks as they can be, and disperse along the back line.


Tanks don't work without infantry support. However, they never did, so that doesn't change anything.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Armored Company". If you're referring to an IG list based around Leman Russes, it's viable, but strictly inferior to an IG list based around Manticores. The mathematics are left as an exercise for the reader, but shouldn't be hard to figure out. If you're referring to a list that contain no infantry, well, that was never viable. It was funny, but it's always been really easy to beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, just 12" twin heavy flamers on tanks, with Celestine backing them up... that's nasty. I'll get to see that game this weekend, hopefully. I know a guy who is bringing a competitive sisters list to the next RTT.

Eh, not really. 12" HF doesn't do anything. It's not high enough AP to kill marines, and it's not enough shots to kill 'gaunts or 'stealers, it's at most a minor inconvenience. Well, it's infinitely more dangerous than an 8" range HF, because a potential to do anything is higher than being out of range, but it's not really going to be doing much.

I'd say to keep in mind that the Immolator is without a doubt worse than a Razorback. It does what it needs to do good enough though.

How have they worked for you in the ITC format, with maelstrom + eternal war? Have you been doing well in tournaments? I feel like the scout move, the invuln, and the 12" flamer are solid. So do the competitive guys running them that I speak with.

Well, very well, however, the local league uses standard format [and, as mentioned isn't very good.] I play in the local league, but I haven't played in any tournaments yet since the edition dropped, and am unlikely to be in any major ones at all. That would require tournaments to be held near me at a time that I can make it, since travel [or at least frequent travel] is off the table for me.

But they're good because they give Dominions 9 extra inches of movement, and serve as a layer of armor between the Dominions and the enemy if you don't have first turn. Also, having the crappy gun options is better than having no gun options, so while I'd rather have a pair of lascannons or a pair of assault cannons than a pair of multimeltas or a pair of heavy flamers, it's better to have a pair of multimeltas or a pair of heavy flamers than it is to have a storm bolter. Yes?

It works, and mech dominions is strong, but there's nothing particularly special about Immolators compared to Razorbacks. It's not like HF Razorbacks would be all the rage if they had 12" range Heavy Flamers, because Assault Cannon Razorbacks are a thing. The scout move is a property of the Dominions, not the tank, and any transport for them gets it. Shield of Faith is a non-factor, since the 6+ itself is rarely taken and it's, well, a 6+.



Repressors are way better than Immolators. Repressors have 6 fire points, which allows the embarked Dominions to shoot without having to get out of the tank. A Repressor with 2 Heavy Flamers and a Storm Bolter is also about the same price as a similarly-loaded Immolator, and is cheaper with a Heavy Flamer and 2 Storm Bolters. The whole shooting from within the tank part is really, really good, since not getting out means less dying, and an overall improvement in the survivability of our force.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Armored Company". If you're referring to an IG list based around Leman Russes, it's viable, but strictly inferior to an IG list based around Manticores. The mathematics are left as an exercise for the reader, but shouldn't be hard to figure out. If you're referring to a list that contain no infantry, well, that was never viable. It was funny, but it's always been really easy to beat.

I guess what I mean is a vehicle-focused list without a lot of infantry. And I find it disconcerting that 70 infantry is considered a "minimum." I would consider mech vets to still be "armored company." And back in the day competitive lists WOULD only only have 4-6 squads of infantry riding around in chimera backed by some tanks/vendettas/artillery. Those lists wouldn't just be competitive. They'd win tournaments. Now I feel like if you're not running conscripts, you're laughed off the table. I think IG tanks/transports could use a lot of love.

I guess that's the point. Extra move, extra distance flamers... Unless you get unlucky in the map draw you're flaming things hard core turn 1.

The guy running Sisters might be flying out to LVO with that list. I think he has at least 5 of the flameboxes.

We'll see. I hope to play his list soon just to see what it does. I feel confident if i roll well that I could give that list problems. But again, that depends on me rolling well... which doesn't seem to happen lol.

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Armored Company". If you're referring to an IG list based around Leman Russes, it's viable, but strictly inferior to an IG list based around Manticores. The mathematics are left as an exercise for the reader, but shouldn't be hard to figure out. If you're referring to a list that contain no infantry, well, that was never viable. It was funny, but it's always been really easy to beat.

I guess what I mean is a vehicle-focused list without a lot of infantry. And I find it disconcerting that 70 infantry is considered a "minimum." I would consider mech vets to still be "armored company." And back in the day competitive lists WOULD only only have 4-6 squads of infantry riding around in chimera backed by some tanks/vendettas/artillery. Those lists wouldn't just be competitive. They'd win tournaments. Now I feel like if you're not running conscripts, you're laughed off the table. I think IG tanks/transports could use a lot of love.

Mechvets work, but Drop Scions are the same but better, for fairly obvious reasons.

Dark Eldar 8th Edition:

I've played 11 games so far with 7 wins and 4 losses.

1) DE vs. Chaos Marines: WINNER: Dark Eldar
2) DE vs. Tyranids: WINNER: Tyranids
3) DE vs. Chaos Marines: WINNER: Dark Eldar
4) DE & Necrons vs. A.M & Chaos: WINNER Dark Eldar & Necrons
5) DE vs. Tau: WINNER: Dark Eldar
6) De vs. Dark Angels: WINNER: Dark Eldar
7)DE vs. A.M.: WINNER Astra Militarum
8) DE vs Dark Angels: WINNER Dark Angels
9)DE vs Chaos: WINNER: Dark Eldar
10) DE vs Necrons: WINNER: Necrons
11) DE vs Tau. WINNER: Dark Eldar

Go go Dark Eldar!

 Marmatag wrote:
I guess that's the point. Extra move, extra distance flamers... Unless you get unlucky in the map draw you're flaming things hard core turn 1.

The guy running Sisters might be flying out to LVO with that list. I think he has at least 5 of the flameboxes.

We'll see. I hope to play his list soon just to see what it does. I feel confident if i roll well that I could give that list problems. But again, that depends on me rolling well... which doesn't seem to happen lol.

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2. You're worried about massed storm bolters and meltaguns moving into range on turn 1.


As far as voiding the benefit of the extra move, place as much as you can into deep-strike reserve. I can't shoot what isn't on the board. Also remember that the infantry is carrying 5 weapons, is T3, and loses a gun with every one of the 5 wounds lost, so shoot them first. Put something on the board they're going to want to unload the infantry to kill, then reserve as much else as you can. Destroy the infantry with the guns, then kill the tanks at your leisure. Locking the tanks in melee with something expendable is also a good way to get them out of your hair..

I really like flamers.

In my competitive list in its current iteration, I run 2 ravens, so my ability to be in reserve is somewhat diminished. I like to keep my drops at 6 so i can get the +1. So, not much in reserve.

I would charge those with a GMNDK or something, if I could just find a way to afford his 300 points price tag.

I feel confident my 2 ravens could pop a couple as well.

 Marmatag wrote:
I really like flamers.

In my competitive list in its current iteration, I run 2 ravens, so my ability to be in reserve is somewhat diminished. I like to keep my drops at 6 so i can get the +1. So, not much in reserve.

I would charge those with a GMNDK or something, if I could just find a way to afford his 300 points price tag.

I feel confident my 2 ravens could pop a couple as well.

I wouldn't be concerned about the tanks. Be concerned about the infantry, the infantry is very good. Once you've weakened the infantry, then deal with the tanks. We have to get out of the tanks to fight.

Of course, Repressors completely change the situation. Repressors allow us to not get out of the tanks while still shooting.

Also, the math of Storm Bolter vs. Flamer shows the two to be about in-line with each other at 8" of range, and of course the Storm Bolter can be fired at longer ranges. However, the Storm Bolter costs 2 points and the Flamer costs 9 points, so it's pretty straightfoward to see why the flamer, even if it seems pretty decent, is bad.

Generic Flamers - yes. I'm not worried about 0AP D6 STR4 hits.

Death guard vs Grey knights. Winner GK. New codex for both.
Death guard suck

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

Literally everybody who has them has storm bolters for 2 points. Chaos has Combi Bolters for 2 points.

2 points to make a Boltgun into Two Boltguns seems, well, fair, considering that all the combi-weapons are 2 points more than their non-combi counterparts.


I think a fair number of the weapon upgrade costs are rather high.
Heavy Bolters at 10 points are high as is, but Heavy Flamers should in no way be 17 points if Heavy Bolters are 10. Heavy Flamers should, at most, be 1 or 2 points more than a Heavy Bolter.
Twin Heavy Flamers should especially not be the same price as Twin Assault Cannons.
Multimeltas also cost more than Lascannons, because apparently that re-roll for damage at 1/4 of the range is worth more than +1 STR and 48" range.

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

This would further cripple Grey Knights pretty hard, our base power armored marine costs 19 points.

Orks have done better in major tournaments than Grey Knights.

The problem isn't the cost of storm bolters, its a problem with the cost of the models wielding them.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Death guard vs Grey knights. Winner GK. New codex for both.
Death guard suck

Death Guard codex didn't come out yet.

Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

I'm sure i'll get flack for this, but that's more of a problem with the battle sisters being undercosted than the heavy flamer being overcosted.

In an example, an Incinerator is 14 points, a Strike Marine is 19 points. The cost of a model relative to its flamer in this case is 36% higher, not 200% cheaper.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

I'm sure i'll get flack for this, but that's more of a problem with the battle sisters being undercosted than the heavy flamer being overcosted.

In an example, an Incinerator is 14 points, a Strike Marine is 19 points. The cost of a model relative to its flamer in this case is 36% higher, not 200% cheaper.

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes I think storm bolters are fairly priced but all the other weapons are ridiculous.

Looking at the weapon costs for SOB I'm like "Well, I can get another Heavy Flamer which gives me d6 shots at 8", or two more battle sisters who give me 4 shots at 12" (the average on a D6 anyways) and 2 shots at 24"... derp"

the costs of heavy weapons are all out of whack this edition, it seems.

I'm sure i'll get flack for this, but that's more of a problem with the battle sisters being undercosted than the heavy flamer being overcosted.

In an example, an Incinerator is 14 points, a Strike Marine is 19 points. The cost of a model relative to its flamer in this case is 36% higher, not 200% cheaper.

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

I'm sorry - i misread your 4 shots at 12" to mean storm bolters. I was thinking of a different unit. You meant 2 rapid fire boltguns, i see that now.

I believe that the toughness is the primary driver of the price difference.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

And the Dominions (the ones that get to take more special non-heavy weapons) are 1PPM more than a typical battle sister and get the vanguard move out of the deal.

Which is the exact same ratio relative to battle sisters and space marines as previous editions.

That difference in points cost made them delicious in kill teams.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I don't think Sisters are underpriced.

They're 4PPM less than Marines, and lose:
1 WS (1 pt, probably)
1 T (1 pt, probably)
1 S (1 pt, probably)
1 Special rule of some kind (SoB have 2, SM tacticals have 3) (1 pt, probably)

And the Dominions (the ones that get to take more special non-heavy weapons) are 1PPM more than a typical battle sister and get the vanguard move out of the deal.

Which is the exact same ratio relative to battle sisters and space marines as previous editions.

That difference in points cost made them delicious in kill teams.

Yeah dominions gain a special rule and go up a point, so still with the "theme"...

And no worries, Marmatag, I just meant that heavy flamers for BSS are bupkis.

Also, the "shield of faith" rule barely even counts as a special rule. In the rare instances where you're nullifying a 3+ save entirely and getting that 6++ save, why is the enemy aiming those kinds of weapons at sisters? That's overkill anyway, and it barely even helps even in that situation. Then deny the witch on 1d6... any dedicated psyker is gonna do better than that both for casting and for resisting psychic powers.

+1ppm for that feels like a tax. Never heard of an instance in 8th edition where Shield of Faith mattered or the 6++ even came up in normal play to begin with.

A 3+/6++ statline for an infantry model is pretty silly. Doesn't Celestine improve that by 1 though? Or is it something else.