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 Marmatag wrote:
A 3+/6++ statline for an infantry model is pretty silly. Doesn't Celestine improve that by 1 though? Or is it something else.

Not quite. They add 1 to their Shield of Faith rolls if they are within 6" of Celestine. However, Celestine actually benefits guard more than Sisters, because she gives Guard wtihin 6" of her a 6++ save which given their low armor to start with would protect them better than the 5++ save would protect sisters (go figure). In neither case is Celestine's Beacon of Faith buff useful, however-- in both cases, she's an assault-oriented, hyper-mobile unit in a very shooting-oriented army, and it's unlikely that you're going to have anything other than Seraphim within range to benefit from it.

And then, okay, fair enough I guess, but it's not exactly a game changer. Frankly, the 6++ save is a holdover from a previous edition when an AP3 or 2 weapon would nullify the 3+ save entirely, thus allowing Sisters to fall back on the 6++ invulnerable when hit by an AP3/2/1 weapon. Even then, it was really nothing special, and a lot of Sisters players simply forgot it existed because of how irrelevant it was.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 3+/6++ statline for an infantry model is pretty silly. Doesn't Celestine improve that by 1 though? Or is it something else.

The 6+ never happens, because almost nothing is AP-4. It's not nearly worth as much as it used to be, because you're no longer losing entire squads with no saves to Battle Cannons, and the only thing that makes them take it is a Meltagun. The Deny-The-Witch property doesn't work either, since, with the exception of Smite, any power that actually manifests is too high to actually deny.

Celestine buffs it to a 5+ for units within 6", which, I guess, is nice, but something I've actually forgotten to apply in literally every single game I've played. It's also still fairly uncommon, but more common than the 6+, at least, because every IG and SM player is loading mass plasma like to tomorrow. Plasma is hilariously undercosted. Overcharged, it averages almost the same output as a Meltagun, actually, so the whole not-exploding thing must be worth quite a lot.

I think Sisters and Sisters Dominions are fairly priced, at least compared to what's out there. Compared to Stormtroopers, we have better armor, but we don't have Deep Strike, and Bolters are more versatile but Hot-Shot Lasguns are better against infantry. Compared to tactical marines, we're lacking in weapon skill, strength, toughness, and upgrade potential. Dominions at the same cost as Tactical Marines get twice the ranged offensive output but worse survivability, and something like a ninth the CQC ability, which is huge because all our options are short-ranged. Having a good S and WS is worth a lot.


You say that Sisters are undercosted, hence the reason we don't want flamers, but fundamentally, playing SM, I'd take Storm Bolter Wolf Guard every day before I even touch a Combi-Flamer, and it goes without saying that I'm never going to pick a twin heavy flamer for my Razorbacks when, for 1 point more, I can have a Twin Assault Cannon, which has +1 STR, 3 times the range, and has twice as many shots on average, with the only disadvantage being that you have to roll to hit. And then, as Guard, I can get Plasmaguns for 7 points per model, why is anyone's name would I take a Flamer for the same cost?


I think the weapons costs are rather out-of-whack. Yes, flamers are fun to use and work well, but are they better than their ordinary non-incendiary cousins? No.

 Marmatag wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Flamers are crap anyway, and so are heavy flamers. They should be 3 points, at most, considering Storm Bolters are 2.

That's stormbolters that are too good. They should cost 4-5 pts for bs3+ models. At 2 they're just auto-include. And flamers are pretty decent. You guyz are just spoiled with undercosted op goodies.

This would further cripple Grey Knights pretty hard, our base power armored marine costs 19 points.

It's obvious gk strikers should go down to at least 17 pts base (or i'd prefer even lower) if sb go up.

SB is simply doubling the firepower of an infantry model that carries a bolter. And models that take it are allready ok at shooting. So, 2 pts is a really tiny price to pay for that and the arguement that "everybody pays 2 pts" is pretty odd. "Everybody payed ~300 pts for a wraithknight in 7-th".

derailed. Lets get back to it.

2 more games to report. The Marine armies all utilized their Codex, Orks of course used the Index.

Ultramarines vs Salamanders: Ultramarines win
-The Salamders are pure Razorback and infantry gun line.
-The Ultras are geared up for bike and vehicular assault.
-Mission was Emperor's Will, Ultras win via First Blood and Slay the Warlord

Orks vs Grey Knights: Grey Knights win
-Orks are a classic horde backed by lootas and tankbustas
-GK's are a Paladin Deathstar and GMDK backed up by a Raven and 3 Razorbacks with Strike Marines.
-Mission was Relic, GK's win by holding Relic and a near tabling, killing 150+ orks in 3 turns, losing a Razorback, a Paladin, 3 Strike Marines, and 9 wounds on the Raven.

Both winning armies had 1st turn.

Tau VS Tyranids. Tyranids Win.

Let me rephrase:

A 3+/6++ makes the 6++ almost completely superfluous on it's own, on infantry. However, in the presence of Celestine, having a 5++ on all your troops is solid. There's a lot of -3 weaponry out there, especially in melee. Invulnerable saves on vehicles is a whole different story, though, and not what i'm talking about here - invulns on vehicles are amazing.

You don't need a squad to win the fight if it's purpose isn't melee, you just need it to survive to retreat and force another round of combat, or hold the objective through the final game turn.

On my Purgation squads in GK, I take a nemesis warding stave on the sergeant, because with 4 special weapons, the last character doesn't even matter, because the squad is so melee-averse at that point, I just want to stop the bleeding before i bail out of combat.

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Fate of Konor missions last week

GK v. Space Marine = GK loss
GK v. SoB = GK win

 Marmatag wrote:

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Part of me wonders if that's utter and total oversight, or deliberate to maintain cross-selling of armies.

 Marmatag wrote:
Let me rephrase:

A 3+/6++ makes the 6++ almost completely superfluous on it's own, on infantry. However, in the presence of Celestine, having a 5++ on all your troops is solid. There's a lot of -3 weaponry out there, especially in melee. Invulnerable saves on vehicles is a whole different story, though, and not what i'm talking about here - invulns on vehicles are amazing.

You don't need a squad to win the fight if it's purpose isn't melee, you just need it to survive to retreat and force another round of combat, or hold the objective through the final game turn.

On my Purgation squads in GK, I take a nemesis warding stave on the sergeant, because with 4 special weapons, the last character doesn't even matter, because the squad is so melee-averse at that point, I just want to stop the bleeding before i bail out of combat.

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Invul on vehicle doesn't happen either, because the tanks are all 3+. It only triggers against Meltaguns and a select few other weapons, which, from what I've seen, aren't very common, because they're overpriced. And then, of course, it only takes 2 or 3 fails for a Meltagun to obliterate a tank, so a 6+ really ain't worth anything. Actually, a 6+ save in pretty much any scenario might as well not be a thing.

As far as resisting combat... a squad in melee is dead. Unless it is sufficiently resilient to survive the initial round, and destructive enough to wipe out the aggressor even after losing a bunch of models, a squad that has been charged is a write-off, be it Guardsmen, Dominions, Tactical Marines, or Sternguard.

Now, Tactical Marines have the advantage of being able to charge into combat and expect something to happen, or at least not to get obliterated. Sisters of Battle cannot, because they fight like Guardsmen in close combat, and 4 shots on 6's at S4 is a much better chance to do damage than 1 shot on 4's at S3. Sisters of Battle, whether they charge or are charged, will die. Our inability to take melee is compounded by having extremely short-ranged guns.


WRT Celestine and Guilliman, everything any Imperial faction can do, IG does better. It's stupid like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

And I agree that Celestine buffs guard infantry more than sisters infantry in regards to the + invuln. Just as Roboute Guilliman is better used to buff imperial guard gunlines than a pure Space Marines force.

Part of me wonders if that's utter and total oversight, or deliberate to maintain cross-selling of armies.

I think it's deliberate.

I will disagree regarding invulns on vehicles. There are a lot of meta-armies out there that shred vehicles with -4. Reducing those casualties by 1/3 is a big deal.

On another note:

Grey Knights vs Dark Angels; Grey Knights major victory

This was a classic case of someone not really getting to play many games against GK. He hadn't seen our tricks. Also I rolled very well, getting 2 deep strike charges and a Celestine charge turn 1. I think he also underestimated Celestine, as I was able to kill his Commissar on the first turn with her. Azrael lost a duel to Draigo.

Celestine, because of her 24" move, is fantastic also when it comes to area and deep strike denial. You have a pretty reliable 28" charge radius with her. So putting her that far back from your opponent, you can protect your lines from deep strike. Every game she does amazing things for me. I will be ordering some sisters to along with my GK. I love the way they play as a compliment to my Gk.

Vortex is interesting. I wouldn't call it broken, but if your opponent doesn't plan for it, you can cause some hurt. I have yet to score an 11+ on it. If i do at the right time, it could be glorious.

1 victory, this week's Konor mission:

Astra Militarum Superheavy Tanks (3 Stormswords) vs Necrons (Monolith, Lychguard, Anrakyr, Triarch Stalkter, 20 warriors, 5 Immortals)

75 points

2nd Concordian Independent Superheavy Tank Regiment 4th Company was victorious.

2 games today.

Sisters verse codex ultramarine primaris. Sisters win.

Sisters verse Ynnari. Ynnari win.

2 2000 pt. games this week.

Space Wolves vs. Ultramarines-SW win
Space Wolves vs. AdMech-AM win

One 2000 point game.

Space wolves vs white scars (codex)= space wolves win.

Dark Eldar vs Death Guard - Death Guard win 6-5
SoB vs 1KSons - SoB win 18-6

My last three games:

Tyranids ate my Blood Angels

Blood Angels defeated an Imperial Soup (Sisters/Primaris/Custodes). Are we counting soup armies?

Orks defeated Blood Angels; this game was a technical draw, but the open war rules gave him the win because he used 2 power level less than me.

Chaos Space Marine victory over the Blood Angels.

Tabled him with my Brigade of Chaos!

4 games this week with my Imperial Guard.

Game 1: my Imperial Guard tabled Space Marines - IG win
Game 2: my Imperial Guard lost to my opponent's Imperial Guard - IG win
Game 3: my Imperial Guard got tabled by my opponent's World Eaters - WE win
Game 4: my Imperial Guard tabled Night Lords (Chaos Space Marines) - IG win

Tournament this weekend.

Guard vs orks- Guard won
Guard vs ad mech- Guard
Guard vs death watch- Guard
Guard vs ravenwing- raven wing ..sadface

2000 point tournament games I played in and/or watched

BA vs Eldar - BA
BA vs Tau - Tau
BA vs DA - DA
GK vs Daemons - GK
GK vs Ad-Mech - GK
GK vs Tau - Tau
DA vs Ad-Mech - DA
DA vs DA - DA
Eldar vs Eldar - Eldar

Tau Empire vs. Salamanders: Tau Victory.
Tau Empire vs. Tyranids: Tau Victory
Tau Empire vs. World Eaters: Chaos SpaceMarine Victory

Our group's results so far.

Tau versus Orks - Tau win
Space Marines versus Orks - Space Marines win
Astra Militarium versus Space Marines - Astra Militarium win
Eldar versus Space Marines - Eldar win
Astra Militarium versus Space Marines - Space Marines win
Adepta Sororitas versus Space Marines - Space Marines win
Necrons versus Adepta Sororitas - Necrons wins
Adepta Sororitas versus Space Marines - Space Marines win
Necrons versus Space Marines - Necrons wins
Astra Militarium versus Tau - Tau win
Space Marines versus Tau - Tau win
Tyranids versus Orks - Tyranids win
Astra Militarium versus Necrons - Necrons wins

All these battles have been without specific Codexes, just the initial books.

Cheers,

CB

So, played in an ITC event this weekend and lost at the final table. I'm just now done thinking through it, and processing it. In the final analysis, I threw the game. Bad dice rolls didn't help, and great dice rolls by my opponent hurt too, but ultimately it was my bad decision making that hurt me the most. Even with the rolls, I could have won this game had i played smarter.

Here are a few bad decisions i made.

1. Not leaving behind a 2/5 flamer purgation to gate my astral aim psilencer squad. I was never going to get those flamers in range, and being able to have 24 shots, instead of 6-12, would have been huge.

2. Charge sequences. I lost Celestine in overwatch, and 6 wounds on my GMNDK, who failed his charge (twice). I could have done a much better job with my charge sequencing and target selection, properly consuming greater good.

3. Target priority in shooting. The Y'varha is a disaster on 2 legs for me as Grey Knights. His nova-charged overwatch *expects* to deal 7 wounds to Kaldor Draigo, or any 3++ marine model really.

4. Command point usage. I spent far too many on the first turn trying to kill a few units, and taking a chance where I shouldn't. It didn't help that before my turn 1 he killed Celestine, and i failed the 2+ reanimate, forcing a command point early - which could have turned the game on the bottom of turn 2, when i failed a critical psychic power. But that's only one example. I spent points I didn't need to. I did spend my last point chasing a better melta roll (two 1's, for 1 damage? Command point! .... 2 damage).

Still getting better, still learning, don't hate losing, just hate making mistakes.

Sod, I've been on Holiday for a while now and have just got back: no computer so I haven't been able to do the data entry (not doing that on my phone ).

What I didn't realise is that 6 pages worth of results would go by whilst I was away... no one else happened to be keeping track while I was away?

(Must be 200 results to add to the OP D: )

Its good to be king. If just for a while.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its good to be king. If just for a while.

If I were a King I wouldn't be the one writing all this up.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its good to be king. If just for a while.

If I were a King I wouldn't be the one writing all this up.

I am a bit surprised you haven't used an excel spreadsheet and just have it set so you can plug in results and it computers everything for you without having to do anything.

SemperMortis wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its good to be king. If just for a while.

If I were a King I wouldn't be the one writing all this up.

I am a bit surprised you haven't used an excel spreadsheet and just have it set so you can plug in results and it computers everything for you without having to do anything.

Because I can't think ahead more than 5mins. Data entry isn't my forte and neither is planning.

IG vs Craftworld Eldar = IG victory