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Dread Master wrote:
I will rule it out. A unit with kislevite flavor is more likely than a Kislevite faction. The group clamoring for that is a niche within a niche. This is about making money. So it will be the core factions. Much reduced to start, and then expanded slowly outwards.

At least a made-to-order for the Kislev minis would be nice. Amazing sculpts

Cronch wrote:

Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base.

The same can be said about Warhammer.

To a degree, absolutely.

Indeed, it was only really convention that meant a unit of say, 30 Spearmen was typically made up of, 30 Spearmen. Theoretically, one would only need a unit perimeter of troops to show how many rank, how many file. The really bold and trusting could get away with just marking the corners.

But, the visuals is the thing. Less of a problem with Aeronautica, as even the original, dinkier models were really, really nice sculpts. All they've done now is make them the same scale as AT. Almost as if they're planning Epic at some point, and want to make sure similarly scaled models are already available.

Oh wait. They're deliberately changing the scales to nickle and dime us, so that can't be the reason?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Cronch wrote:

Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base.

The same can be said about Warhammer.

To a degree, absolutely.

Indeed, it was only really convention that meant a unit of say, 30 Spearmen was typically made up of, 30 Spearmen. Theoretically, one would only need a unit perimeter of troops to show how many rank, how many file. The really bold and trusting could get away with just marking the corners.

But, the visuals is the thing. Less of a problem with Aeronautica, as even the original, dinkier models were really, really nice sculpts. All they've done now is make them the same scale as AT. Almost as if they're planning Epic at some point, and want to make sure similarly scaled models are already available.

Oh wait. They're deliberately changing the scales to nickle and dime us, so that can't be the reason?

Visuals and "nickel and dime" us? that is what we call in the industry a Win/Win.


For those interested in a different scale, Warmaster has had a bit of a resurgence lately using Warmaster: Revolution rules.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Spoiler:

And...? Scale creep has been a thing since GW has been a thing. Stick some 5th Ed Brets next to 6th Ed Brets and there's a definitive size difference. Marauders? Same. Does NOT invalidate them, especially if base sizes stay the same.

Easy E wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Cronch wrote:

Aeronautica? Scale of the craft doesn't matter, as it's all about the base.

The same can be said about Warhammer.

To a degree, absolutely.

Indeed, it was only really convention that meant a unit of say, 30 Spearmen was typically made up of, 30 Spearmen. Theoretically, one would only need a unit perimeter of troops to show how many rank, how many file. The really bold and trusting could get away with just marking the corners.

But, the visuals is the thing. Less of a problem with Aeronautica, as even the original, dinkier models were really, really nice sculpts. All they've done now is make them the same scale as AT. Almost as if they're planning Epic at some point, and want to make sure similarly scaled models are already available.

Oh wait. They're deliberately changing the scales to nickle and dime us, so that can't be the reason?

Visuals and "nickel and dime" us? that is what we call in the industry a Win/Win.


For those interested in a different scale, Warmaster has had a bit of a resurgence lately using Warmaster: Revolution rules.

Then Warmaster: Revolution has the 17 people that actually played Warmaster covered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:We can argue about it till we're blue in the face, we'll have to wait and see. My money is on brand new sculpts, since a ton of pre-AoS lines are now retired and not in production, plus it removes the old problem of glut of used toys gutting new model sales.

Have you TRIED to find old GW models on the secondary market? I'm looking constantly since I still play 6th, and even finding some on sale is hard enough without ridiculously overpriced BINs. It takes NO effort to pull those old mold plates out of storage and hammer out new molds. Proof of this? Revell knocking out older 40K models.

They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.

I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.

 Blooddragon1981 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.

I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.

I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time

See, it’s a double edged sword.

We know The Old World is coming back. To those that played WHFB, that means Warhammer The Game of Fantasy Battles is returning. And in turn, means my long dormant Ogres will be glad I couldn’t be arsed to rebase them.

GW have two options.

Stick with what people know and love, and own lots for.

Or

Create a new scale.

Risks.

The former? Risk is inherent sales restriction. As someone with an existing and extensive army, I’m not likely to spend a huge amount to begin with. Rule book, Army Book or equivalent. Rinse and repeat across several thousand gamers, and initial takings will be relatively low.

The latter? Risk is those of us hankering to get square bashing again, irrespective of whether we also enjoy AoS feel a middle finger has just been shown to us. The army I was looking forward to dusting off and kicking ass with has no role. Instead, I now have to assemble a whole new army, from scratch. That’s expensive.

I know which risk I’d prefer to run. See, a game seen to be played attracts attention. And from attention comes new blood. From new blood comes sales. From those sales come new opponents for all, and a reason to rejig my army, or invest in a new one as and when.

Do GW want an instant player base, who in time will spend cash?

Or do GW want to risk further alienating the more disgruntled gamers who still won’t let AoS go, and others previously looking forward to a return to glory?

Danny76 wrote:

 Blooddragon1981 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.

I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.

I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time

Yeah, unfortunately I think our are spot on

Do people really believe that GW will produce miniatures in the year 2022 matching the size of what they produced in 2002, or is this discussion just a way to fill the information void until we get some proper news in a year or so?

All I know is I want to use my three huge remaining Fantasy armies again (not that I can’t if I just use old editions or alternate games etc but that’s by the by).
I sold off several, but my Empire and VC in particular, I’d like to play square bases fresh gaming.
My Ogres I have been torn between rebasing for 4 years now. Mawtribes book finally comes which could be the one to do it, and then this, so now I’m back to waiting

Other consideration is ‘who really cares?’.

Other than Adeptus Titanicus, provided the base size is appropriate, the size of the model (Aeronautica) doesn’t actually matter, or (Necromunda) is so slight that someone objecting is probably going to be an arse to play against anyway.

Plus, Necromunda? The old models are slightly smaller than the new ones. They’re also metal, not plastic. So they’re a massive pain in the nads to convert up with new weapons as the campaign progresses. And given WYSIWYG really matters in Necromunda? That’s a drawback to being ever so slightly easier to hide against incredibly specific scenery. So it all balances out in the end.

And yes, I am strict on WYSIWYG in Necromunda. Proxy is ok for a game or two, whilst you gather resources. But if you start off with ‘a is actually q, except on this model, where it’s z. That model with z actually has m’ and other ballache, non-distinct nonsense.

I’ve limited resources to play with in a game, so when I aim to take someone down, I need to know, at a glance, that I’m making the right decision. And NO INVISIBLE WEAPONS. Ever. Just like, get a loose weapon and BluTak it to the base. As long as I can see it, that’s fine.

 Blooddragon1981 wrote:

Danny76 wrote:

 Blooddragon1981 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.

I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.

I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time

Yeah, unfortunately I think our are spot on

Right, they already did that. I mean, you could still kinda use your 5k point Vampire Counts army in Age of Sigmar. Anyone could kinda use most of their fantasy stuff in age of sigmar. But nobody does, because the game is focused on the new stuff and selling new models. I don't see any reason to believe this will be any different.

except LoN was one of the stronger armies for a long while, and a lot of the post-WHFB armies that transitioned into full Aos armies were much stronger than the new ones. Flesh Eaters blow stormcast out of the water in terms of sheer power, and they're all pre-Aos models.

If anything, it speaks to GW’s skill at marketing, and the appeal of really nice models.

Ogres are, well used, truly brutal in AoS. Everyone does multiple damage. Few don’t have an armour modifier. Battle shock can be brutal, but my opponent needs to lots of wounds to start killing stuff in the first place.

And they’ve had a single plastic replacement model since AoS launched.

But anyways. We’re in danger of tangent.

In short? Keeping WHFB the same scale, and playable with historical armies makes the most business sense.

And who are we kidding here? Having an army or armies already isn’t going to stop any of this lot from buying stuff they think is cool.

If they're thinking with portals, GW should be aiming to get back to the circa 4th-6th period in terms of how people bought product - the cost/army size ratio was about right in terms of balancing barrier to entry against the spectacle of the game, and it was fairly commonplace for people to own multiple armies or have multiple themed lists within a single army.

Even if they do go full-Adeptus Titanicus with the initial release and do Empire vs Empire with loads of detailed Provincial rules and special subfaction units, there needs to be a modern Ravening Hordes style thing at launch so people can at least get in some appetiser games using their existing armies, and while I fully expect the models won't be an exact match in size & proportions for any of the previous ranges, we need to be talking WHFB Chaos Warriors vs AoS Chaos Warriors, rather than classic Delaque to new Delaque - replacing a gang with the newshiny models feels like an opportunity, replacing a whole army feels like a chore even ignoring the cost issue.

I mean, a big part of the audience GW is aiming to capture with TOW are people like myself who wouldn't even let GW blowing up the setting force us across to the newshiny, if they make radical changes to the model scale and the game isn't at least similar mechanically to WHFB, that part of the audience just refrain from buying the new stuff once again.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

 Blooddragon1981 wrote:

Danny76 wrote:

 Blooddragon1981 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
They also introduced new weapon options for Necromunda, right? I mean, do you see anyone playing Necromunda with their old gangs? I wouldn't expect to see anyone playing warhammer The Old World with their old fantasy miniatures. That would make it a completely waste of time for GW. They don't exist to sell rulebooks to people who aren't buying miniatures.

I would get really upset if I could not use my old Vampire Counts minis/armies. I would be glad to add some new minis but not to be able to use an army of approx 5k points would be a killing blow from GW for me.

I’m with you there, though arguably the killing blow already happened when the Old World blew up the first time

Yeah, unfortunately I think our are spot on

Right, they already did that. I mean, you could still kinda use your 5k point Vampire Counts army in Age of Sigmar. Anyone could kinda use most of their fantasy stuff in age of sigmar. But nobody does, because the game is focused on the new stuff and selling new models. I don't see any reason to believe this will be any different.

You're so right. Play Sigmar, where you have crap legacy rules that poke fun at your army OR didn't transition worth a damn in the 2nd Ed.

If we wanted to play Sigmar, we'd already be playing Sigmar and the point would be moot. The fact that GW itself is going back to TOW in an attempt to solicit money from people tells me (AND you, if you're paying attention and willing to listen) that enough people are flat out not playing AOS that there's money left on the table that will go elsewhere if GW doesn't do something about it. Since gamers street team worse than anyone short of Tesla owners (apparently) you have a poisoned well pretty fast.

lord_blackfang wrote:They don't care about anything but milking the most money for the least effort.

So how exactly is making dozens of new sculpts for 14+ factions the least effort, compared to mainly bringing existing sculpts back into production? Made-to-Order runs clearly show there is money in old stuff, which is hardly surprising given that they are basically free money for GW. As long as they sell a couple, they're already making a profit.

Overread wrote:Simple fact is anyone who has an army and isn't buying won't buy into a totally new game; however someone currently running an active, but older army, is more likely to steadily expand their army by buying new sculpts and replacing and updating. Espcially since Old World had a lot of really old plastics and metals so updates are a BIG jump.

Exactly. This entire endeavour is aimed at people who were into WHFB (new players have no reason to care yet, and still GW announces this 3 years in advance, promising regular updates over that time period). If you already had, say, a Bretonnia army, and they simply re-release the existing sculpts, would you already buy any of them? Probably a few, yes, to expand or complete your collection. If they make something new (be it a brand new unit, or updated sculpts for existing units), would you buy those? Well, yeah, probably, to expand your collection and provide some variation.
Now, what if they make the whole game completely incompatible with your existing collection, and it's still a game that requires many dozens of miniatures, would you buy any of those new ones? Nah. You'd say that GW can go #$%!@ itself, and continue playing Oldhammer/Middlehammer/9th Age/Kings of War/nothing, but simply stare lovingly at your glorious Bretonnians as they slowly gather yet more dust.

Even if old Necromunda miniatures were incompatible with the new rules (which they aren't), you'd have to purchase 1 box of plastics to get back into the game. Maybe a second box and some Forge World bits to expand. The total miniature costs would be around what a single unit will cost in Warhammer Fantasy (if indeed not less).

Even if you can use, and will only use, your existing collection of models for the game, GW will probably still sell you a rulebook, and army book, maybe some cards for magic items and spells, perhaps similar plastic spells and terrain as exist in AoS. If Necromunda is anything to go by, GW is very happy to just sell a lot of books, cards, and the occasional miniature...

His Master's Voice wrote:Do people really believe that GW will produce miniatures in the year 2022 matching the size of what they produced in 2002, or is this discussion just a way to fill the information void until we get some proper news in a year or so?

It's not about a slight bit of scale creep, the question is whether old models will be compatible with the new game.

GW did notice that their other specialist projects worked well, and no self-respecting corporation would leave a penny on the table, so they decided to tickle ex-players nostalgia for some extra bucks. Which means, to GW, model sales, not book sales.

So how exactly is making dozens of new sculpts for 14+ factions the least effort

Simple, they will not start with making new sculpts for 14+ factions. They will start with two factions (or one, if they do just make it about inter-imperial conflict) and see if that sells. If it sells poorly, they will quietly slow the release schedule down to a tiny trickle. If it sells well, they will expand further. With new sculpts, in GW's current style.

GW's current style has become a worse and worse of a fit for the Old World ever since the End Times, and using it will means the new game won't have a strong visual identity of its own, beyond square bases.

I mean...it will be a new product from modern GW. With all that entails.

Changes in style are 100% intentional because GW wants us to buy new models instead of using existing collections. That being said, they can still produce Old World - fitting models if they want to. From recent releases, Squig Herders and Hoppers, Stone Trolls and Start Collecting Slaves to Darkness miniatures would look spot on in modern version of Old World.

Easiest way to sell lots of models is to make them look much better than their predecessors (that shouldn't be too hard given how bad WHFB looked in the end) and pack them in huge boxed sets. Personally I think that this is the approach that GW is going to take. Huge boxed set with two armies named after a famous battle, with few supplemental kits. If and when that sells like hotcakes, introduce another army with very limited options and market it as an expansion.

The key thing here is that you have one group who is ruling out ANYTHING that has to do with making this somehow fit with the previous editions of WFB, despite having NO evidence that THAT is the case. Those of us saying it will have teased evidence from GW, which works more in our favor than it does in any suggestion that this is going to be some weird AOS mod or Warmaster revival.

The Old World changed so much between 1st and 8th editions. When GW say they're going back to the Old World, when exactly do they mean?

For a lot of people, it's not just the rank and file rules and non-trademarkable names of WHFB that set it apart from AoS. It's also the art and lore of the edition they grew up with.

I started in 3rd edition with an Undead army. If we return to the Old World, it'll probably be the version after Undead was split into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Already, I'm out. This Old World is not my Old World.

My Old World was a time before competitive balance was a consideration, before child-friendly designs and Orcs in power armour. GW won't go back to that time, so I just hope they make something new and interesting rather than a re-heated 6th edition to fight off Kings of War or whoever.

What I expect to see is what happened to necromunda.

Original necromunda had identical gangs. There were no unique troop types or weapons. They all used the same weapon and skill lists. Their starting stats where the same.

Only when they got skills did their individuality appear.

Now they are all very different with unique weapons stats and types from creation.


I expect what was once 'empire spearmen' to be 'reilkand spear guard's, middenland halberdier wolf beards etc.

They will all be slight reinventions of classic units justified as a 'deeper dive' into the 3 emperors period giving us an 'unprecedented look at the individual armies that make up each elector state'. The uniqueness and individuality will be sold as strengths and features.

And they will generate enthusiasm in new players because it will be something different while cashing in on nostalgia and also invalidating classic models so people will buy the new ones.

Ooooh, I’d kill for those Middenheim hammerers.

 WaveyRaven wrote:
The Old World changed so much between 1st and 8th editions. When GW say they're going back to the Old World, when exactly do they mean?

For a lot of people, it's not just the rank and file rules and non-trademarkable names of WHFB that set it apart from AoS. It's also the art and lore of the edition they grew up with.

I started in 3rd edition with an Undead army. If we return to the Old World, it'll probably be the version after Undead was split into Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. Already, I'm out. This Old World is not my Old World.

My Old World was a time before competitive balance was a consideration, before child-friendly designs and Orcs in power armour. GW won't go back to that time, so I just hope they make something new and interesting rather than a re-heated 6th edition to fight off Kings of War or whoever.

I always felt the Lahmians should have been able to run a mix of Khemri and Vampire Counts. Would have kept a fluffy way to let the older players have their mixed army.

Wait, wasn't there a cairns list or something in 6th that still had mummies and the like?


At any rate, I'm not opposed to something new as long as it's intuitive and balanced. Interesting doesn't... heh... interest me, honestly, as it infers neither good nor bad and could easily be either. High damage volume stupidity and bufftastic Magic: the Warhammer type aura play would also send me right out.

Hellebore wrote:
What I expect to see is what happened to necromunda.

This is about what I expect as well.