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Made in us
Guardsman with Flashlight




I think we can all agree that the Deathstrike needs a rework. The best idea I've heard is that it still gets one shot, but you can fire it whenever you want. The caveat is, the later in the game you fire it, the more damage it does.

Ex. Turn 1 3D6 attacks, hits are mortals. Every turn after the first you get +4/5 attacks.

Maybe give it a rule so that rather than sometimes including nearby units, the damage spills to the nearest enemy unit if the target unit is killed. If you get high enough damage you could kill a screening squad and the character behind it. Would be hilarious into bodyguard units.



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Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






More damage in later turns (even if it would work from a gameistic point of view) would be a bit weird I think. Why does an ICBM do more damage when you have more time aiming it at something closeby?

It remains a weird unit I think. If one wants to keep it fluffy (as you should usually not have an ICBM that close to the front if everything went as you wished for as general) I could imagine it giving VP instead of making damage if you can successfully fire it, simulating that the opponents force was unable to keep you from taking out a command bunker some hundred miles behind the lines. And besides that having a high chance of a catastrophic explosion if it is destroyed (as it's basically a giant heap of explosives and fuel). So in game you could at least use it as some kind of suicide unit.

I don't claim that this would make it competetive or even just worth it's points in casual games, just that this would stick closer to what the Deathstrike should be lorewise.

~6550 build and painted
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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10


Pretty much. It was a joke.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Thank you kindly for the response. Much appreciated.

EmperorForearm wrote:
The balance dataslate has the orders update. Link is about 1/2 the way down the page. Says download balance dataslate.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

I want to include a heavy weapon in 2 infantry squads that are tasked with sitting on home objective. This is for my Tallarn list so I have autocannons and missile launchers available to go with their plasma guns. While it's a more fun list, which would be the better option for them? While I know they are not really worth it, It's mostly for modeling purposes and personal "rule-of-cool" as I have the metal Tallarn models.

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Well, Missile Launchers would be the more "Tallarn" option lore-wise, but I suppose it would depend on what kind of theme you're trying to do with your force (ie. armored, raiding, line, etc).
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, region of Paris

 Salted Diamond wrote:
I want to include a heavy weapon in 2 infantry squads that are tasked with sitting on home objective. This is for my Tallarn list so I have autocannons and missile launchers available to go with their plasma guns. While it's a more fun list, which would be the better option for them? While I know they are not really worth it, It's mostly for modeling purposes and personal "rule-of-cool" as I have the metal Tallarn models.

Take missile launchers without hesitation. The low AP on low rate of fire autocannons is not a helpful combo at all. You would be hampered against any tough troops, any vehicles, monsters, MEQ, tau suits... and the list goes on. Plus all these abilities that ignore AP-1 would drive you mad. On the other hand, the AP-2 of missile launchers will at least significatively reduce the amount of succesful armor saves. Most vehicles and monsters will save on 5+ which will fail more often than not. Another advantage missile launcher has is its strenght that crosses an important wounding step : wounding T4 on 2+ and most monsters / vehicles on 3+ will be valuable.

There is another detail to think of, when you are giving heavy weapons to your squads : the drawback of having to move your squad. Moving is something that you may be forced to do in order to avoid a threat, aquire line of sight, or get better positioning to objective markers... Now in 9th, typically, you should feel free to move your infantry squads at will. Having a costly heavy weapon that wants to stand still is contradictory to this need. So, for a heavy weapon upgrade being worth of choosing the stand still option, it needs to have a significatively strong profile to compensate. So from my experience, I see no value in giving weak heavy weapons profiles in infantry squads : mortars, heavy bolters, autocannons are not worth taking versus the need to move the squads. Laser cannons and missile launchers have at least a profile that may be worth keeping your squad immobile, sometimes.

Personally I had 3 converted valhallan autocannon teams, made out of plastic autocannons and more reasonably sized tubing for the barrels. These were nice conversions. But since 8th dropped, I scapped them, rolled back to heavy bolters, and never regretted this decision. 9th added 2 damage to heavy bolters on top of that. I sometime play them as cheap heavy weapons squads. Autocannons are just plain bad since they redone the weapons profiles.

As much as I like equipping my squads with heavy weapons in friendly games, I lean more and more towards a more mobile and simpler approach. So I'm just taking a melta gun, and a vox caster.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/30 18:10:29


longtime Astra Militarum neckbeard  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

 Ravajaxe wrote:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
I want to include a heavy weapon in 2 infantry squads that are tasked with sitting on home objective. This is for my Tallarn list so I have autocannons and missile launchers available to go with their plasma guns. While it's a more fun list, which would be the better option for them? While I know they are not really worth it, It's mostly for modeling purposes and personal "rule-of-cool" as I have the metal Tallarn models.

Take missile launchers without hesitation. The low AP on low rate of fire autocannons is not a helpful combo at all. You would be hampered against any tough troops, any vehicles, monsters, MEQ, tau suits... and the list goes on. Plus all these abilities that ignore AP-1 would drive you mad. On the other hand, the AP-2 of missile launchers will at least significatively reduce the amount of succesful armor saves. Most vehicles and monsters will save on 5+ which will fail more often than not. Another advantage missile launcher has is its strenght that crosses an important wounding step : wounding T4 on 2+ and most monsters / vehicles on 3+ will be valuable.

There is another detail to think of, when you are giving heavy weapons to your squads : the drawback of having to move your squad. Moving is something that you may be forced to do in order to avoid a threat, aquire line of sight, or get better positioning to objective markers... Now in 9th, typically, you should feel free to move your infantry squads at will. Having a costly heavy weapon that wants to stand still is contradictory to this need. So, for a heavy weapon upgrade being worth of choosing the stand still option, it needs to have a significatively strong profile to compensate. So from my experience, I see no value in giving weak heavy weapons profiles in infantry squads : mortars, heavy bolters, autocannons are not worth taking versus the need to move the squads. Laser cannons and missile launchers have at least a profile that may be worth keeping your squad immobile, sometimes.

Personally I had 3 converted valhallan autocannon teams, made out of plastic autocannons and more reasonably sized tubing for the barrels. These were nice conversions. But since 8th dropped, I scapped them, rolled back to heavy bolters, and never regretted this decision. 9th added 2 damage to heavy bolters on top of that. I sometime play them as cheap heavy weapons squads. Autocannons are just plain bad since they redone the weapons profiles.

As much as I like equipping my squads with heavy weapons in friendly games, I lean more and more towards a more mobile and simpler approach. So I'm just taking a melta gun, and a vox caster.
I fully agree with all points. The 2 squads that will get these will be non-moving home objective campers/help guard the Artillery so sitting still is not a big issue. I have 6 more with plasma or melta (plus 20 Tallarn rough riders) for being mobile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/30 18:26:46


"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






How, of the 12 players in the LVO that played Guard, faired?

I heard Vet Guard (Which I don't understand the difference between just Guard) won the KT?
   
Made in gb
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Vet Guard are a separate KT faction from normal Guard/Scions. They have more equipment and special rules attuned for KT. The new KT plastic uses the new Krieg to represent them but you can do it with any Guard models. Nice to hear they won the competition even if it is odd to think of a Guard 'elite' force being the best of it's type.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Tallonian4th wrote:
Vet Guard are a separate KT faction from normal Guard/Scions. They have more equipment and special rules attuned for KT. The new KT plastic uses the new Krieg to represent them but you can do it with any Guard models. Nice to hear they won the competition even if it is odd to think of a Guard 'elite' force being the best of it's type.


It's so freaking weird.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BlackoCatto wrote:
Tallonian4th wrote:
Vet Guard are a separate KT faction from normal Guard/Scions. They have more equipment and special rules attuned for KT. The new KT plastic uses the new Krieg to represent them but you can do it with any Guard models. Nice to hear they won the competition even if it is odd to think of a Guard 'elite' force being the best of it's type.


It's so freaking weird.


I wouldn't say weird. It's just like taking a Veteran Squad instead of an Infantry Squad.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

 BlackoCatto wrote:
How, of the 12 players in the LVO that played Guard, faired?

I heard Vet Guard (Which I don't understand the difference between just Guard) won the KT?

I can't swear to it, but I don't think any pure Guard players cracked the top 100 at LVO. A couple of Guard/Custodes soup lists did though.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

Honestly doesnt help us in any way and really doesnt even matter as far as making us worse. As weve seen by now, GW prints these things months in advance, so GW was going off of balance data from 4 to 5 months ago at least. My theory is we were originally supposed to get a new codex shortly after CA dropped, but due to shipping delays we're much farther out than we're supposed to be. About the only world these changes make sense in is if someone at GW said "eh, their book comes out in a month. Who cares?"

Instead we're gonna be stuck with these points till summer at least. I hate to say it but IG is functionally dead in the water competitively. Ive seen some folks do decent at smaller events but 9th edition is just built from the ground up to screw us over now. A single faction secondary that rewards us for killing things isnt changing that, and the mission changes definitely wont help given chimeras are back to giving up 2 vp for the vehicle secondary again. Other than providing specific tools to other armies via allies, I just dont see us making it to top tables unless Siegler decides to take pity on us.

We dont have durable obsec. We dont have fast melee. Our armies bleed VP's at an insane rate. We dont have an easily scored secondary. It goes on and on. Until we get some fundamental changed to our army I dont see pts changes mattering without just cutting our pts in half or something.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Agreed. I'm starting to accept my role as spoiler in my current crusade. Everyone else either has their 9th ed codex or will soon have one. Followed all of the advice I received online and have just got tanks, bullgryns, Infantry, and just three supporting characters.

Feels bad when you can't even compete in narrative events.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




At the Gates of Azyr

Jarms48 wrote:
 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10


Pretty much. It was a joke.


Agreed. All the Superheavies need a MASSIVE points adjustment....as in downward. G-dubs really missed the boat on making these guys more competitive. I’ll never understand why they didn’t give them a 2+ save, but Leman Russ tanks do. I get they don’t need an invulnerable save, but make them worth bringing to the table.

They could drop the Deathstrike down 100pts and I still wouldn’t take them. They need a re-write period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Other than providing specific tools to other armies via allies, I just dont see us making it to top tables unless Siegler decides to take pity on us.


I laughed at this. But then I cried when that name is spoken...if I only had the time to play as much as he does...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/02 14:34:29


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






 ZergSmasher wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
How, of the 12 players in the LVO that played Guard, faired?

I heard Vet Guard (Which I don't understand the difference between just Guard) won the KT?

I can't swear to it, but I don't think any pure Guard players cracked the top 100 at LVO. A couple of Guard/Custodes soup lists did though.


Sounds about right.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Agreed. All the Superheavies need a MASSIVE points adjustment....as in downward. G-dubs really missed the boat on making these guys more competitive. I’ll never understand why they didn’t give them a 2+ save, but Leman Russ tanks do. I get they don’t need an invulnerable save, but make them worth bringing to the table.


I made a list of all vehicles that now need a 2+ save because of the Russ change.

Heavy Support:
- Colossus Bombard
- Malcador
- Malcador Annihilator
- Malcador Defender
- Malcador Infernus
- Thunderer
- Valdor Tank Hunter

Lord of War:
- Baneblade
- Banehammer
- Banesword
- Doomhammer
- Hellhammer
- Shadowsword
- Stormlord
- Stormsword
- Crassus
- Macharius
- Macharius Vanquisher
- Macharius Vulcan
- Minotaur
- Praetor
- Stormblade

Legends:
- Atlas Recovery Tank
- Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter
- Arkurian Stormhammer
- Dominus Armoured Siege Bombard
- Gorgon Heavy Transport
- Macharius Omega

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/02 23:34:30


 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

One good thing about this is you dyed in the wool IG players will want to be buying anything you think is neat/useful NOW. Take a look at tau for example. People were selling used lots for rock bottom prices 3 months ago, now theyre all way up. Anytime your army sucks is the best time to get in and buy bread and butter stuff like Russes or guardsmen. You can score good used lots cheap right now. I know Ive been snapping up plastic krieg kits cheap that way lately.

All we can really do now is bide our time, read up on other codexes, and make sure our stuff is painted and ready whenever our book does drop. Not really a "tactics" thing but as you play this game over the years its a good trick to build up a big army cheap. If youre not picky on used lots anyways.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Quik question chaps: can our vehicles advance and pop smoke? here's the wording: 'Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers'

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in us
Guardsman with Flashlight




 PaddyMick wrote:
Quik question chaps: can our vehicles advance and pop smoke? here's the wording: 'Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers'


They Can!

BRB P:361 in the Rare Rules under "Non-Shooting Abilities"

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2000
1500
800  
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

I imagine that it'll become a stratagem whenever the 9th edition book finally comes though.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I imagine that it'll become a stratagem whenever the 9th edition book finally comes though.


Aye until then though I am going to enjoy pushing 6 double heavy flamer chimeras up turn one and declaring they all pop smoke for no cp!

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






So, I took a 2k guard list to a 30 man tournament this weekend and here's some observations.

I took 8 russes (4 demolishers (2 tank commanders), 1 plasmababy and three regular tanks), 3 squads of barebones infantry, two valkyries and two armoured sentinels.

People sure as what weren't expecting 8 leman Russes against them, so the element of surprise was on our side at least.

I managed to put up quite decent fights against my three opponents, GK, AdMech and Custodes. I even managed to win against the AdMech player. The two losses were both with a respectable number of VP (55 and 64). Ended up 18th our of 30 players.

Observations:
-T8, 2+ save and 12/14 wounds is nice, but everybody has AP4 it seems. I was able to keep my tanks alive for quite some time but I misused the 'take cover´ strategem onthem it seems. Apparently it can only be used on infantry. Russes really need a boost in survivability (-1 damage or perhaps even half damage).
I made another mistake with the 'hail of fire' strategem. It can only be used on vehicles and that should probably change as well.

The tanks really need to be able to shoot twice in order to have any impact on the enemy ranks, but that limits you to 5" movement. That in turn makes it hard to reach the objectives.

I took the tank ace trait ́Steel commander' on both my tank commanders and the ability to reroll 1s on four tanks really adds to your firepower.

Valkyries are a great way to get engage on all fronts and eventhough they die quickly they can then leave behind an infantry squad to prolong that engage for another turn. They're too expensive for what they bring to the table though as their firepower is negligable.

I usualy took scout sentinels for the extra move, but I was really happy with the armoured ones. T6, 6W and a 3+ make them surprisingly survivable and forces the opponent to waste shots on them that could have gone into your ranks as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/27 18:38:58


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Good to hear of your experience Doc, thanks. With all the killing power out there now, I have a hard time placing my faith in tanks. Like you said, lots of AP to contend with.
Agee about the amoured sentinels, they seem quite survivable, especially with the half damage strat. I like them with heavy flamers, as a roadblock, popping smoke on turn 1.

I'll be running a horde style list with no unit above 100 points at an RTT in a couple of weeks. it's krieg so the star unit will be the combat engineers, and i'm hoping the hades drills can get stuck into combat. I'm not keen on death riders right now as cavalry seems to be ovverlooked as a keyword, but i'll be taking 3 DR commanders as mobile order givers who can get stuck in if needed.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

Honestly doesnt help us in any way and really doesnt even matter as far as making us worse. As weve seen by now, GW prints these things months in advance, so GW was going off of balance data from 4 to 5 months ago at least. My theory is we were originally supposed to get a new codex shortly after CA dropped, but due to shipping delays we're much farther out than we're supposed to be. About the only world these changes make sense in is if someone at GW said "eh, their book comes out in a month. Who cares?"

Instead we're gonna be stuck with these points till summer at least. I hate to say it but IG is functionally dead in the water competitively. Ive seen some folks do decent at smaller events but 9th edition is just built from the ground up to screw us over now. A single faction secondary that rewards us for killing things isnt changing that, and the mission changes definitely wont help given chimeras are back to giving up 2 vp for the vehicle secondary again. Other than providing specific tools to other armies via allies, I just dont see us making it to top tables unless Siegler decides to take pity on us.

We dont have durable obsec. We dont have fast melee. Our armies bleed VP's at an insane rate. We dont have an easily scored secondary. It goes on and on. Until we get some fundamental changed to our army I dont see pts changes mattering without just cutting our pts in half or something.


Come October it will be 5 years since our last codex.

Over roughly the same time period (July 2017) Space Marines have had THREE Codexes.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





This coming Saturday I'll be going up against a buddy who has both a Necron and Tau Army. I'm wanting to pull out all the stops in case of Tau.

I'm guessing the best single Detachment we can do is Cadian with Pask, 2 Tank Commanders (1 relic battlecannon, 1 demolisher), 2 Full Payload Manticores, 120 Whiteshields Conscripts, Bullgryns + Astropath, and two Platoon Commanders?

Is it worth dropping anything for a Scion Detachment?
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






Arc, I'd think about not taking full payload (at least not twice) and taking a Steel Commander instead to issue more tank orders. The ability to reroll 1s is a great asset on demolishers.

I'm interested in how the army plays next saturday. The huge blob of conscripts looks like a big gamble to be honest. I'd love to hear how effective they were. I've reached a point where I use my infantry for backfield objective holding only. I sometimes even forgo shooting with them as the lasguns are completely irrelevant against most competetive lists.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 DoctorDanny wrote:
Arc, I'd think about not taking full payload (at least not twice) and taking a Steel Commander instead to issue more tank orders. The ability to reroll 1s is a great asset on demolishers.

I'm interested in how the army plays next saturday. The huge blob of conscripts looks like a big gamble to be honest. I'd love to hear how effective they were. I've reached a point where I use my infantry for backfield objective holding only. I sometimes even forgo shooting with them as the lasguns are completely irrelevant against most competetive lists.


All three russes I was wanting to take would be Tank Commanders, one being Pask, so I'm not seeing the need for the extra orders?

Unless you think I should downgrade one and/or scrounge some points to turn one of the Manticores into a regular Demolisher Russ.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maxzero wrote:

Come October it will be 5 years since our last codex.

Over roughly the same time period (July 2017) Space Marines have had THREE Codexes.


It won't be the longest since we had a codex. From memory the gap between our 3.5 edition and 5th edition codex was 6 years.

I'm just hoping our next codex is good. I've seen some people on reddit say they've spoken to playtesters. Who apparently think the next codex is very vehicle focused and underwhelming. That was back in November. So hopefully we've gotten better since then.
   
 
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