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Look out men, I smell a rat!

Well well well, looks like all the Privateer Press fanboys better jump off their high horses and start admitting Privateer press is simply the ugly red headed child of GW.

Today, I hopped on over to the PP website. I planned to check out the miniature painting forum, as the rest is not so good.

So, I type in www.privateerpress.com and get greeted by a new message.

"PRICE ADJUSTMENT:

Over the past four years that Privateer Press has produced miniatures, the price of our metal materials has nearly doubled, including a 50% increase in the last 12 months. While we diligently monitor the cost of the metal and price our new products appropriately, the miniatures we released in the first couple of years cost so much in metal that we can no longer afford to continue producing them at their original price. We’ve gone to great lengths to not raise prices. We have purchased more efficient equipment, bought metal in bulk, and continually train our staff in an effort to create a more efficient production process. With the drastic rise in tin prices over the last year, such efforts are simply not enough to keep producing products priced at 2003 prices. In order to continue the production of certain items we must adjust their MSRP to reflect the current materials prices, which constitutes the largest portion of their manufacturing cost. Below you can see a graph from the London Metal Exchange displaying the rise in tin prices since January of 2003. (http://www.lme.co.uk/) In 2003, the price of tin was $2.87 per pound. Our most recent order of metal cost $5.67 per pound, a 98% increase in four years.

As of January 1, 2007, a significant number of the models found in the WARMACHINE: Prime and WARMACHINE: Escalation product releases, as well as a select few models post-dating Escalation, will receive an increase to their MSRP. No HORDES models will be adjusted. Here is a complete list of the affected models.

We hope that the necessity of this adjustment is understandable and look forward to the continued support of the many WARMACHINE players, retailers, and distributors who have helped WARMACHINE grow over the past four years. You may send your questions to frontdesk@privateerpress.com "

So, PP is raising prices of WM - after they blatantly increased prices of hordes miniatures! So much for the PP doesn't raise prices BS.

What do you guys think? PP becoming the new GW? I had hoped to buy a new faction, and while the prices aren't so bad, I am not annoyed with the company.

Chuck

You're not annoyed at the company? Funny, I thought you were going to say that you were, given the whiny GW-bashing lead up.

I'm not annoyed at them either. If it were me and my materials doubled in cost I'd raise prices too.

Its hard for them not to follow in GW's footsteps.

They know that warmachine is popular, as is GW. it doesnt take a market analyst to notice that GW hasnt gone out of business from their prices, so Privateer knows they can get away with it too.

To be fair, atleast privateer tries to explain why their prices are going up, instead of telling you that the cost of oil is driving plastics prices up, only to release in their year end market quotes that oil prices have little if any impact on the price of raw product.

Privateer seems to be trying to be quite reasonable about this.

I'm not too annoyed. I mean, they haven't raised prices in that long, and it's only somet things that are pretty bad.

For instance: Bane knights being $45 for 6? Ouch.

But overall, its not too bad. its not like you have to fork over $400 for a new army.

Chuck

Thats $7.50 a piece.

I would kill your mother to buy an equitable model from GW at that price.

A mandrake model for the DE line costs $6 a piece. And it is true Gary Morely ugliness.

Really, there is no comparison between the two companies from my experience.

PP has kept their prices the same for the past three years or so and made a hard descision to keep their Prime models their original price desite the reising cost of tin.  Now unfortunately due to the exorpant price increase PP has been forced to raise those price or risk the further loss of capital. 

 I honstly cannot blame them and after looking at the increased prices, they really aren't that bad.  in most cases it is only a raise of $.25 to $1.00 per dollar cost of the model so any where from a $1-2 increase on blisters and $2-5 depending on the the Warjack. So all in all not that drastic of a price raise.

That and PP gave a full reason with back up from the LME on why they are doing it.

Did Hordes prices really go up since release? Or did they just start
at the higher prices? Two different things...

Posted By Kaile_Bloodhammer on 12/04/2006 4:34 PM
I honstly cannot blame them and after looking at the increased prices, they really aren't that bad.  in most cases it is only a raise of $.25 to $1.00 per dollar cost of the model so any where from a $1-2 increase on blisters and $2-5 depending on the the Warjack. So all in all not that drastic of a price raise.

Not that drastic, but not entirely for the reason given, either...


The Slayer (as an easy example that I had sitting around) is going from $19.99 to $24.99, a $5 increase.

It weighs (I just popped mine on the scales, base and all) around a quarter of a pound. If the cost of tin has risen by $2.80 a pound, as they say, that means the materials cost for the Slayer has risen by around 70 cents. Slightly less, really, since tin isn't the only ingredient in the white metal.

So, a $5 price increase for a 70c cost increase...

Nope, not buying it, sorry. That's a 'Hey, we haven't put prices up for a while, what's a good excuse' excuse.


Don't get me wrong, they're entitled to put their prices where they want them. But this is no less a convenient and not entirely truthful excuse than GW's oil prices excuse.

Filthy steampunks, we hates them forever, precious!

Posted By malfred on 12/04/2006 4:47 PM
Did Hordes prices really go up since release? Or did they just start
at the higher prices? Two different things...

Started at a higher price. Example: their starter boxes were around $10 more than the Prime starter boxes; now they're all about the same, I think.

To be fair, Reaper did the same in Summer 2004, with the same argument and very similar charts, so this isn't exactly new ground being broken by a company that has prided itself (or at least its fans have prided the company) for being an economical option for the frugal gamer. I don't recall anyone busting Reaper's hump, though I'm sure much of their rise was to bring their Warlord stuff in line with GW, and because they could.

I'm still not going to get too worked up over it, for the following reasons:
1. I can buy PP stuff at discount at my FLGS conveniently (stuff goes on discount regularly, as part of general store sales)
2. I can buy PP stuff at online discounters conveniently
3. I don't need nearly as much of it to make an army

Fair and balanced reasons? Maybe, maybe not, but that's where I'm at as a consumer. The economists out there can run the numbers and give us a forecast. Me, I'm going to finish painting my krielstone bearers.   

One should consider that PP sells to distributors and not direct to stores or end users, so a $5 increase on a model's price is not $5 more in PP's takings.

That $5 is spread out amongst PP, it's dintributors, and then its retailers -- and how easily can those poor folk raise their prices?

Posted By pnweerar on 12/04/2006 6:53 PM
One should consider that PP sells to distributors and not direct to stores or end users, so a $5 increase on a model's price is not $5 more in PP's takings.

Without seeing their trade prices, that's just a guess. It's entirely possible that they have simply raised both the trade and retail price by the same amount.

Either way makes no real difference, though. $5 is substantially more than the increased materials cost, so whether PP are taking that whole $5 themselves or 'spreading it out' matters not a jot to the end user. The end result is still a $5 hike for a 70c cost increase.

The materials cost has no extra effect on the retailer. If PP raise their trade price $1, and the retail price also by $1 to compensate, the retailer makes exactly the same profit from it as they did before.


You would only justify adding extra increases for distributors and retailers if the cost increase was in something that actually affected them as well, like rising power costs for example.

I have just for the first time bought some warmashine stuff, A warjack (to use as my SW pre heresy Dred) and some other models for termies. I thought the price was reasonable. But I have yet to see the mini. If they are up tyo my expectations I will think it w fair price.

Without seeing their trade prices, that's just a guess. It's entirely possible that they have simply raised both the trade and retail price by the same amount.

Either way makes no real difference, though. $5 is substantially more than the increased materials cost, so whether PP are taking that whole $5 themselves or 'spreading it out' matters not a jot to the end user. The end result is still a $5 hike for a 70c cost increase.

The materials cost has no extra effect on the retailer. If PP raise their trade price $1, and the retail price also by $1 to compensate, the retailer makes exactly the same profit from it as they did before.


You would only justify adding extra increases for distributors and retailers if the cost increase was in something that actually affected them as well, like rising power costs for example.

"Without seeing their trade prices, that's just a guess."

It's not. I buy Privateer at 50% off from my distributor, though I don't know how much they get the minis from PP for.

"It's entirely possible that they have simply raised both the trade and retail price by the same amount."

I'll find out soon enough.

"so whether PP are taking that whole $5 themselves or 'spreading it out' matters not a jot to the end user."

No it doesn't. But it does matter to people who sell these to pay their rent.

"You would only justify adding extra increases for distributors and retailers if the cost increase was in something that actually affected them as well, like rising power costs for example."

Fair enough.
 

One price hike in 3 years versus a guaranteed one every year if not multiple ones? I can live with that.

Now, once they start getting into putting out a crappy rule set and not keeping the living FAQ up to date, then I'll drop the game.

Pretty much what SYR8766 said. The difference between a PP price increase and a GW price increase is PP leaves it to me how I get my minis, any way or discount I want.

Its beeen 3 years, and now they have an increase. I can live. Not happy, but they arent being unreasonable. GW on the other hand, has one each year whether they need it or not. Oh wait, exucse me, a price adjustment

Posted By carmachu on 12/05/2006 7:42 AM

Its beeen 3 years, and now they have an increase. I can live. Not happy, but they arent being unreasonable. GW on the other hand, has one each year whether they need it or not. Oh wait, exucse me, a price adjustment

I'm not defending GW by any means, and I won't knock PP for keeping their profit margains, but according to the PDF, Privateer is calling it a "price adjustment" as well.

Posted By carmachu on 12/05/2006 7:42 AM

I'm still not going to get too worked up over it, for the following reasons:
1. I can buy PP stuff at discount at my FLGS conveniently (stuff goes on discount regularly, as part of general store sales)
2. I can buy PP stuff at online discounters conveniently
3. I don't need nearly as much of it to make an army

Pretty much what SYR8766 said. The difference between a PP price increase and a GW price increase is PP leaves it to me how I get my minis, any way or discount I want.

Its beeen 3 years, and now they have an increase. I can live. Not happy, but they arent being unreasonable. GW on the other hand, has one each year whether they need it or not. Oh wait, exucse me, a price adjustment

They have more than that if you count the hidden adjustments when they make armies.

Repackaging of the eldar battle force is NOT a deal. etc.

Posted By DarkTemplars on 12/05/2006 6:25 AM
One price hike in 3 years versus a guaranteed one every year if not multiple ones? I can live with that.

Now, once they start getting into putting out a crappy rule set and not keeping the living FAQ up to date, then I'll drop the game.

Sure, except it took GW 25 years to hit that particular model, and those particular business practices.  How long has PP been doing warmachine?  We'll see what they (PP) look like (if they're still around) in 25 years.

Interesting all the slack for a company that will put out a 4 model unit box for $50, oh, sorry, $49.99.  At least you get 5 termies for the same price  

*rolls eyes* But I dont think, unlike GW, PP is claiming to drop prices on alot of stuff either. Not stealth increases a year or so ago on bits.

You see, PP has credibility with its customers. GW does not. GW's lied too many times. PP, overall, is forthright in what it says its going to do. That cred carries over....

You all realize, of course, that prices on just about EVERYTHING go up regularly year after year.

Wheat, harvesters, storage, grinders, breadmakers, bread, knives, toasters, plates, napkins, pepto, toilets...


How is this all a suprise again?

This is what PP does (or at least did until now).

Instead of rising prices of existing box sets, they merely raised the prices of new things coming out that are equal in size.

Now they're raising prices too - ouch.

Chuck

Does anyone have any data on how many layers of distribution come between the sale price on the metals exchange and PP? Who they buy it from, and who they buy it from, etc? I'm skeptical that PP is blatantly lying to our faces- I rather suspect the price THEY pay for the metal is more than shown on those charts; the charts are just there to show the proportional increase.

Well, I don't know about the chart, but the prices they mentioned were the prices they paid:

"Our most recent order of metal cost $5.67 per pound, a 98% increase in four years."

I am much happier knowing a company I support is making good money, than in my getting a "deal."

If they get good money, they can get their staff good dental plans, have better company picnics, and feel better about risking it all to start their own companies.

Having money to invest in new products and capacity is nice too, but let's not forget the reason we start companies. It's not to make minis.

It's to make money.

Posted By pnweerar on 12/06/2006 11:22 PM
Having money to invest in new products and capacity is nice too, but let's not forget the reason we start companies. It's not to make minis.

It's to make money.

Wrong industry to make that sort of claim... Have a wander through the manufacturer index on TMP and you'll find any number of small miniature companies that were set up with no real aim to actually make any huge amount of money out of it.

A hobbyist finds that people are asking for copies of the minis or scenery that he makes for himself, so sets up small production runs priced to just break even. It's not that uncommon a story.

Speaking for myself, I went into business to make money, sure. But it was also to make miniatures, and to give myself a way to make some sort of income despite ongoing health problems. All of those are equally important, in my book, since I wouldn't be happy running a business doing anything else, and would have a bit of trouble holding down a regular 9-5 job.

I think you'll find any number of miniature producers that were set up with similar ideas.

Edit: You'll also find any number of gaming stores around the place that were opened by gamers who just wanted a place to play and a discount on their toys. Again, a lot of them don't last very long, but they're out there.

For that matter, I rather doubt that the guys who founded Games Workshop were banging out roleplaying games in their garage with any real expectation of making serious money out of it... At that point, it was just too much of a niche market, that was already filled by D&D.

Then take a shower! :-P


I feel PP can raise thier prices all they want. People will pay what they will for thier hobby, it's a luxury not a necessity.

Now, is PP justified or not? It's a very tough question to answer. If you are a veteran PP gamer then you are more than likely more pissed off than someone who is just starting, why? Because they were around when the original prices were low.

In my oh so very humble opinion, I feel that PP is a far better company than any of the competitors. I'll continue to buy thier products. I guess that makes me a fanboy.

Posted By DaIronGob on 12/07/2006 11:46 AM
People will pay what they will for thier hobby, it's a luxury not a necessity.

Yeah, I can quit any time I want.

No, really! I can!

I just.... don't want to right now.

Yeah, that's the ticket! I don't want to quit...

 

 

But seriously, worth is in the eye of the beholder-skin wallet. I'll continue to pay because I thoroughly enjoy their games and I feel it's worth it. That, and I dropped GW. At least for the time being...

That is becoming a very common thing now-a-days. With the elders of the hobby anyway.

I see more teens and early twentyish players at the LGS Warhammer nights. One or two vets... most have moved on, others just got tired of GW.

I agree with DaIronGob.

However, I think the interest in general of gaming is going down in all game ranges.

Most of my gamer friends would rather play video games than miniatures games, and most of my other friends are more interested to be bombing (graffiti, stencil and tagging public areas for those not in the youth know-how).

I for one still like gaming, and painting, but it loses its appeal every day.

Chuck