S4 shotguns?

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**Kid_Kyoto**

The latest DA rumors put scout shotguns at S4, any hope this will apply to IG as well?

**The Crawling Chaos**

Then they'd be almost as good as guardians.

**Brimstone**

I wouldn't expect it to apply to other marine chapters let alone the IG.

**malfred**

Why not? They should change the name from shotguns to something else then. Or
give them BLESSED SHELLS or something.

**carmachu**

Be nice it S4 shotguns all around, marine or IG.

**Moopy**

Considering that they've swapped rules from just about every codex I wouldn't see why this would be exclusive.

**Drake_Marcus**

The only reasons is GW's new asinine insistence that everything stay exactly as printed in the codex, error or not. That way it saves them from doing any proofreading, owning up to poor editing or reprints. Sorry, I meant to say that it prevents confusion amongst players

:p But hey- increasing the strength of shotguns would actually make Vets with shotguns usable models for more then the sheer coolness!

*crosses his fingers* Please GW? I was just being cheeky about the rules thing

**brotherskeeper74**

They could always use the, "Because they are Space Marine Shotguns, that's why." rule.

**Cruentus**

Posted By malfred on 12/07/2006 4:24 PM
Why not? They should change the name from shotguns to something else then. Or
give them BLESSED SHELLS or something.

Because then you'd probably also have to work within the 5/10 split for squad sizes too that the DA will introduce (which I'll probably do anyway)... can't take the good without the bad

As someone pointed out, they've been particularly adamant about rules only belonging to that codex, of course, if they revise Wargear, and its all rolled into 'Shotguns', then its all good.

**FlatlanderBoss2.0**

Witchhunter StormTrooper [aka Arbites] would be worth actually having 50 of them lying around painted.

...like I do

**Drake_Marcus**

Well if the entry in the DA codex says "shotguns" ala the title of all the other weapons then I'd say it's fair to use the new rules for other codexes in friendly play. Even some tournaments might be amicable to the idea.

**beef**

Achotgun is a shotgun irrespective of who has it, gaurd or maine. just like lascannons and plasma guns. if they are ST4 for DA they will be for all.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

So shotguns are basically gonna be shuriken catapults? I guess either they're special space shotguns or shuriken catapults really suck.

**Lemartes**

As I understand it only Dark Angels artificers and techmarines know how to produce the strength 4 shotgun and shells. (Lost tech and all that)

**nyarlathotep667**

ShuriCats have sucked ever since their complete neutering in 3rd ed and GW has yet to see fit to fix that and likely never will.

**beef**

Where did you get that info from Lemartes?

**spyrer**

Seriously? What are we talking about here - Pump-action shotguns from the master artificers of ancient times? Plasma-laced gunpowder? That makes no sense whatsoever.

**Drake_Marcus**

Posted By spyrer on 12/09/2006 5:58 AM
Seriously? What are we talking about here - Pump-action shotguns from the master artificers of ancient times? Plasma-laced gunpowder? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah, and for that matter- since when would shotguns be useful to and army of soldiers with guns that fire recoilless, self-propelled secondary explosion incindiary ammo?

**Lemartes**

If a marine can wear a dress on the battlefield then anything is possible.

**FlatlanderBoss2.0**

They take them for those "close encounters". Well, that's what Hicks told me anyway.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 12/08/2006 1:34 PM
So shotguns are basically gonna be shuriken catapults? I guess either they're special space shotguns or shuriken catapults really suck.

Shuricat - fires 100s of razorsharp disks over a short range

Shotgun - fires 100s of red hot ballbearings over a short range

I think they're comperable.

**Mannahnin**

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 12/08/2006 9:20 PM
ShuriCats have sucked ever since their complete neutering in 3rd ed and GW has yet to see fit to fix that and likely never will.

They've always worked fine for me. Maybe three hundred or so games isn't enough testing.

**Gotchaye**

Of course it's not enough; the discussion has not been about whether Shuriken Catapults are useful for their cost, and is only peripherally related to the actual game. The issue is that a high-technology race like the Eldar evidently can't come up with something much better than a shotgun.

Kid, while, on face, the two sound similar, we know that the Shuriken Catapult is far superior (or ought to be far superior) simply from the fact that it's the chosen weapon of a race with a much higher technology base. I don't care how elite the Marines are; the tech difference between the Eldar and the Imperium is at least comparable to the difference between the modern US military and WW1 forces. If anything, the difference should be more pronounced than even that. The most elite special forces in WW1 were rather ill-equipped compared to what the US arms its raw recruits with now, to say nothing of what the US gives is own elite soldiers.

**Toreador**

That isn't even a good comparison Gotchaye. I will step up one war and compare two rounds I know really well. The standard Nato round is a 5.56mm round. Small, and doesn't do much damage. It is more controllable on autofire and much smaller and lighter so more can be carried. Now compare that to the basic round the Germans used. It was 8mm long ranged and brutal. Not as many were carried and it was fired from a bolt action rifle. The older rifle would cause an amazing amount of damage, and could penetrate easily through small trees. The 5.56 has poor comparative penetration, takes a lot more rounds to put a man down, but more are carried and fired.

In game terms I would almost say that an m16 would be Str3 and with a short range while a Mauser would be Str4 and a greater range. The difference being that the M16 would have a higher rate of fire, and maybe assault.

Technology doesn't always make something better all across the board. Very different uses.

**beef**

that I think is a much better comparison

**Kommisar**

I can easily carry 300 rounds of 5.56.

That much 7.92x57 Kurz would be another story.

**Drake_Marcus**

Posted By Toreador on 12/09/2006 12:49 PM
That isn't even a good comparison Gotchaye. I will step up one war and compare two rounds I know really well. The standard Nato round is a 5.56mm round. Small, and doesn't do much damage. It is more controllable on autofire and much smaller and lighter so more can be carried. Now compare that to the basic round the Germans used. It was 8mm long ranged and brutal. Not as many were carried and it was fired from a bolt action rifle. The older rifle would cause an amazing amount of damage, and could penetrate easily through small trees. The 5.56 has poor comparative penetration, takes a lot more rounds to put a man down, but more are carried and fired.

In game terms I would almost say that an m16 would be Str3 and with a short range while a Mauser would be Str4 and a greater range. The difference being that the M16 would have a higher rate of fire, and maybe assault.

Technology doesn't always make something better all across the board. Very different uses.

And, on top of that the Shuriken is a surgical weapon. It's shooting a tiny disk that just slices through the body. Not much collateral damage compared to a bolter shell. It's like comparing a small grenade launcher's damage to your body to a hyperspeed razorblade. Sure the razorblade is going to rip through you, but if it doesn't hit something vital you're going to be far more inclined to shoot back then if you get hit with a grenade. Now obviously I picked pretty extreme comparitors, but still...

**Jester**

Shuriken are monomolecular, right? So a person shot with a suriken would not even know it until he started moving, then he would fall apart like a wet paper bag full of strawberry jam. And dead kittens.

"Oh, feth, I think I've been shot!" "Don't move, Steve, the medic will be here soon." "I, I think I'm going to be alright, it must have been those nachos we ate. Here, help me up...URGGHGOGEEGGGGEEERRRRGHHH!!!!" "DAMN YOU STINKING ELDAR!!! DAMN YOU STRAIGHT TO HELLLL!!!!!"

**The Crawling Chaos**

I prefer apricot jam with dead kittens.

**Mr. X**

Mint jelly. Only way to go.