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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Armor of the Sainted Ion will generally be better than Sanctuary.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.

It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.

The first roll is much closer to 50% as you will CP if you explode. Only 3% of the time will you explode with a command reroll (most the time you are going to do this anyways) Then you have a flat 50% chance to stand back up.

If you double explode though you wont be using the stratagem at all. If you CP an explosion you are at 50% and if you don't you are at 75%. 82% of the time you are at a 75%. It is really tough on opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Armor of the Sainted Ion will generally be better than Sanctuary.

The 2+ armor? Yep. It's great for gallants.

A lot of times the 2+ save will give you a 4+ to shooting too and most CC weapons are ap-3 at most - so a 5+ save there too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/16 14:29:17


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.

It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.

The first roll is much closer to 50% as you will CP if you explode. Only 3% of the time will you explode with a command reroll (most the time you are going to do this anyways) Then you have a flat 50% chance to stand back up.

If you double explode though you wont be using the stratagem at all. If you CP an explosion you are at 50% and if you don't you are at 75%. 82% of the time you are at a 75%. It is really tough on opponents.

So over all a 71% chance with 4 CP spent just to stand up. Then more CP for resurgence. So over 50% of a knight lists in game CP to pull it off once.

Annoyingly I suspect that as it will still see play in Imperium tournament lists, so resurgence will probably be next to get a CP bump making atleast the 32 mandatory even in casual play and the 64 for competitive knights.

Thankfully I didn't paint my knights to a house so it's on to a new house to find a workable mono build list.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?

Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Valkyrie wrote:
If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?

Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.

IMHO it's all about the tap dancing knight in CC the gauntlet is good for death gripping strategum but shear volume is the best answer to invulnerable saves. Also feet are still s8 ap-2 Dd3 not exactly a trivial attack.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Valkyrie wrote:
If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?

Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.
Against T6 4++ the Reaper will do on average 1 wound more then the Feet would (6.67 vs 5.34)
But.
The Reaper has a much bigger deviation. (5.37 vs 3.17) so the Feet would do some damage more reliably then the Reaper but it has a higher (and lower) potential.

As always you can use http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/ to calculate for yourself.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





This is the kind of question that can be more or less calculated and see what works against what best. Against T8, 3+ save reaper is 8.9, fist is 13.3 and stomp 5.3. With 4++ it's 4 for feet, 6.67 for fist and 5.33 for reaper. The worse inv save the more it helps fist/reaper of course.

Then it's just matter of deciding how much you need reliability than maximum output as the fist/reaper will generally be more likely to bad rolling screwing you up and sometimes you don't NEED maximum output. Imagine you are facing that 4++ guy and need just 2 wounds in. In average all will kill it but fist and reaper would be more likely fail in the process. With more dice from stomp you will likely roll closer to the average.

So use the site provided by Ordana to math hammer various targets. Pure average damage there's only one right choice per T and save target. Then just start to think when lesser damage output is acceptable in favour of less chance of whiffing it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 12:06:54


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.

It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.

The first roll is much closer to 50% as you will CP if you explode. Only 3% of the time will you explode with a command reroll (most the time you are going to do this anyways) Then you have a flat 50% chance to stand back up.

If you double explode though you wont be using the stratagem at all. If you CP an explosion you are at 50% and if you don't you are at 75%. 82% of the time you are at a 75%. It is really tough on opponents.

So over all a 71% chance with 4 CP spent just to stand up. Then more CP for resurgence. So over 50% of a knight lists in game CP to pull it off once.

Annoyingly I suspect that as it will still see play in Imperium tournament lists, so resurgence will probably be next to get a CP bump making atleast the 32 mandatory even in casual play and the 64 for competitive knights.

Thankfully I didn't paint my knights to a house so it's on to a new house to find a workable mono build list.

Most the IK list are running with at least a batallion in support. so that is 6+5+3 = 14. Probably will spend 2 pre game. Could resurect a knight 3 times. Not really needed though. You res them once and make them kill it again next turn and you reevaluate. Sometimes it's better to let a knight die so you can blow it up in the middle of their army. Knights are amazing dude. Control of life and death...very powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Valkyrie wrote:
If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?

Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.

Unfortunately - there is never any reason to use anything but the titanic feet. Unless you are facing t8 or higher targets. Then what's interesting is there is no practical difference between Reaper and fist (if you are a galant - fist hits on 3's and wounds on 2's and reaper hits on 2's and wounds on 3's) I choose fist because if you kill a knight with the fist you can throw it for mortal wounds. The damage is exactly the same though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 14:48:39


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Xenomancers wrote:
Unfortunately - there is never any reason to use anything but the titanic feet. Unless you are facing t8 or higher targets. Then what's interesting is there is no practical difference between Reaper and fist (if you are a galant - fist hits on 3's and wounds on 2's and reaper hits on 2's and wounds on 3's) I choose fist because if you kill a knight with the fist you can throw it for mortal wounds. The damage is exactly the same though.


Let's see. T8, 3+, gallant attacking:

Reaper: 13.89
fist: 16.67
stomp: 8.32

add in 5++:

reaper: 11.11
fist: 11.11
stomp: 8.32

Then let's see crusader.

Reaper: 8.89
fist: 10
stomp: 5.33

add in 5++:

reaper: 7.11
fist: 6.67
stomp: 5.33

You were saying? There's definitely a target for fist&reaper over stomp and also reason when gallant could be picking up between weapons. And of course gallant isn't only ones with those.

Oh and for the record T7 3+ with gallant:

stomp: 11.11
reaper: 20.83
fist: 16.67

So it's not even T8 only.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Crusaders lack Reapers and Fists. Did you mean Warden?

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I coulda sworn Reaper and Fist had the same AP, so with one as a 2+ hit/3+ wound and the other reversed, wouldn't they do the same damage?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
I coulda sworn Reaper and Fist had the same AP, so with one as a 2+ hit/3+ wound and the other reversed, wouldn't they do the same damage?
Chainsword is -3, gauntlet is -4.
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Which household would you run in this army?

Castellan
Gallant
Warden

2x Guard battalions including a punisher commander and 3 mortar HWSs

Loads seem good! Taranis for 6+++ and resurrection, Raven for the expensive strat plus mobility, krast for melee plus the headsman's mark on the castellan, or possibly mortan for their ignore modifiers strat for the castellan and a little more CC punch.

So many different ways to go with knights!

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Castellan = raven. Nothing approaches the power of Order of Companions literally doubling your firepower.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Houston

How do people feel about Hawkshroud?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GreatGranpapy wrote:
How do people feel about Hawkshroud?

Looks good on paper, but simply going mechanics and paying the CP for machine spirit strategum is better 90% of the time.
Unless your regularly playing against someone who likes to wound multiple knights ovrr focusing on each one in turn.
   
Made in fr
Deadly Dire Avenger





Hey guys,

What about the viability of solo Renegade Knights lists?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 -Ekko- wrote:
Hey guys,

What about the viability of solo Renegade Knights lists?

Fir funzies, go for it, the ability to use all the knight models and mix and match should open up some interesting build options.
However like imperial Knight's if your trying to go competitive adding a battalion for bodies to block the scary CC threat will always be a plus, not to mention the possibility of adding DP's, Primarchs, Ariman etc to make one nasty squew list.
   
Made in fr
Deadly Dire Avenger





Ice_can wrote:
 -Ekko- wrote:
Hey guys,

What about the viability of solo Renegade Knights lists?

Fir funzies, go for it, the ability to use all the knight models and mix and match should open up some interesting build options.
However like imperial Knight's if your trying to go competitive adding a battalion for bodies to block the scary CC threat will always be a plus, not to mention the possibility of adding DP's, Primarchs, Ariman etc to make one nasty squew list.

Thanks for the answer.
But you're saying that solo RK are not competitive? :(
Do I really need to add some allies in solo tournament?

(I've posted a RK solo list in the army list section, feel free to tell me what you think about it)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/30 11:24:07


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
How do people feel about Hawkshroud?

Probably only worthwhile if you are talking a Valiant for the overwatch stratagem. Otherwise, there are better houses.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Renegade knights are just plain not as good as non renegade knights. In pure form and pure ik is not that competative
Now they can make one strong knight and the double AGC isstrong as a single knight but you can only boost one. Youll also struggle with objectives snd have no screen.
   
Made in de
Implacable Skitarii




Germany

Hey guys i got a question about some Knight setups:

i read a few times that the Warden is a good candidate for the Thunderstrike gauntlet and the paragon gauntlet, why?
Is endless fury not the better option and the simple chainsword? Maybe you could explain me this^^

My current Knight lance setup atm is:
Errant with sword and Landstraider
Gallant with Paragon gauntlet
Warden with Enldess Fury and sword
House Taranis, allies with my admech

Maybe you guys have some tipps and tricks^^ i never played a knight lance, because i own this 3 Knights just for 1week^^

Admech & Deathwatch
--------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Both are strong but usually you would put endless fury on a crusader its not either or its both. You have no shooty knight so its too good things in competition the question is will your wardrn hang back or charge in
   
Made in de
Implacable Skitarii




Germany

This depends on my opponet, because i will try it competitiv. Tomorow i got a test game against Thousand Sons with Magnus and Morti, so i gues in this case the Warden and Errant will shoot and the Gallant hopfully will knock out Morti or Magnus in the first round^^

Ya both options are strong but i dont see a reason for an WS3 Knight with an -1 modifier for the thunderstrike gauntlet to use, if there come another -1 modifier its over^^

Ok the Deathgrip Gem is awesome, but only for this?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 10:47:28


Admech & Deathwatch
--------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof  
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




Paragon gauntlet doesn’t give a -1, which is why you see it suggested for WS3+ knights.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
Made in de
Implacable Skitarii




Germany

Ya i know that the paragon doesnt give -1, but isnt the Relic gatling better on a Warden? And you wound with the sword almost all on a 2+, only T8 not.

Plz dont misunderstand me^^, i try to understand ^^

Admech & Deathwatch
--------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof  
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Well it makes the warden better at different things. By going relic gauntlet plus certain household traits it could punch as hard as a gallant while retaining the avenger cannon. It'd also let the warden death grip with decent accuracy which isn't bad either.

Provided it's not your warlord, you could choose the relic based on opponent. If you're fighting hordes, go endless fury. If you're fighting other knights, the gauntlet is probably a better bet.

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in fr
Deadly Dire Avenger





U02dah4 wrote:
Renegade knights are just plain not as good as non renegade knights. In pure form and pure ik is not that competative
Now they can make one strong knight and the double AGC isstrong as a single knight but you can only boost one. Youll also struggle with objectives snd have no screen.

Actually i was thinking to boost the Dominus with "Trail of destruction" because of supercharge on the plasma decimator.
Well, if I wanted to play objectives, I'll defintely not play solo RK, I just want to try to annihlate my opponent
   
Made in de
Implacable Skitarii




Germany

Ah ok i see, but if i play a gallant in the same detachment i gues the paragon is better equiped on the gallant

Admech & Deathwatch
--------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Ordana wrote:
Castellan = raven. Nothing approaches the power of Order of Companions literally doubling your firepower.

Unless you lose out to Quindar and get mortal wounded to death turn 1. In that case Resurrection is superior.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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