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Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






 lord_blackfang wrote:
Vorian wrote:
I can only repeat that that extra step is multiplying 3 by 2 or something equally trivial.

I don't want to contribute to keeping this tedious line of discussion going so I'll stop there.


Imagine there was an extra space in the middle of each word in the rulebook for no reason.

Also trivial to read, but fething obnoxious.


GW already does this by spamming redundant adjectives to every.goddam.paragraph of text

Flocking obnoxious indeed.. unless you are like 6 years old
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Albertorius wrote:
Vorian wrote:
I can only repeat that that extra step is multiplying 3 by 2 or something equally trivial.

I don't want to contribute to keeping this tedious line of discussion going so I'll stop there.

Well, that and placing the gauges multiple times instead of once, which will usually add the uncertainties.


Don't use the gauge then, I won't be.
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Vorian wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Vorian wrote:
I can only repeat that that extra step is multiplying 3 by 2 or something equally trivial.

I don't want to contribute to keeping this tedious line of discussion going so I'll stop there.

Well, that and placing the gauges multiple times instead of once, which will usually add the uncertainties.


Don't use the gauge then, I won't be.

Oh, I won't. But won't use the symboled sheets either.

Thing is, it seems like I would need to do a lot of things to make the game play better, you know? For something that doesn't seem to add anything at all? I don't think any of these are all that onerous... but they don't bring anything to the table either, so...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 10:14:06


 
   
Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






Cronch wrote:
Spoiler:
 Geifer wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
They revealed in more depth how the movement system works.

Awful.

They should have just used numbers. As user kodos theorized, they used the shapes because they saw others doing it, but had no idea why they were doing it.


Predictably so. Somewhere in those long posts of yours you praised proprietary tools with the caveat, and I'm only going to paraphrase here, if done well. You can save yourself a whole lot of typing in a thread about a GW game and just write that. GW's current rules designers aren't good at their job. Haven't been since they fully took over from the older designers that used to work at GW, and haven't gotten any better since.

That's if you define their job as designing games. More accurately they're there to help sell toy soldiers. They seem to be better at that.

Didn't you even speculate yourself earlier that some GW manager may have seen others use proprietary tools and mandated their inclusion in Kill Team without any game related reason? Well, here we are. And I'll just repeat myself: predictably so.

When were those old designers? People complained about GW rules as far as I can remember, which is 1997 or so. Maybe in the 80s and early 90s they were on par with everyone else, but after that the changing landscape outpaced them in terms of rules design because the goal was to 1) not rock the boat too much for existing players 2) drive the sale of models.


Unless you can provide a ratio of satisfied to dissatisfied customers, people complaining about GW isn't a good indication of anything. Even if you did, that'd be an indication of popularity more than quality. And it's not really what I'm talking about.

You can see the rules getting cruddaced, for want of a better word, throughout 5th ed and culminating in 6th ed as a ruleset that was entirely written by designers that used the framework of 3rd ed but had none of its original designers on the job anymore. 6th ed wasn't a particularly good edition and got replaced by 7th after only 23 months. Even with GW's desire to shorten edition lifespans to get the cash injections from new edition releases, which have since stabilized at 3 years, that's an awfully short lifespan for an edition. It wouldn't be wrong to consider 6th ed the paid beta for 7th ed. Even so, 7th ed, as we are all aware of, had major issues that outshone anything we got before.

When 8th ed came around to show what these designers could do without the framework provided by older designers, the result wasn't much different than I expected and the designers dropped many of the proven mechanics of old only to go overboard on new or revived mechanics that didn't work properly. That's really where I get the impression that the current designers aren't even adequate at their job. Just for a moment throw out this notion that game design has moved on and other companies are doing it better, and all this worship of modern mechanics and game design paradigms. Consider that GW is decidedly conservative in how 40k is constructed. Consider how if nothing is supposed to dramatically change, GW has an archive of rules that either proved to work or didn't that spans more than twenty years from when the current designers had to write rules on their own. They have a lot of rules and data to draw from and they make the same old mistakes that should have gotten recognized and ironed out since the first time a similar mechanic or complex rules interaction was implemented. But as far as I can see, time and again they're not just not learning from past mistakes, they're also making them worse in the latest incarnations.

All just my opinion of course and speaking fairly broadly, but as someone who never considered GW's games to be flawless I'd call out these two drop off points as outstanding declines in quality that don't have equivalents among GW's varying offerings of the past as well as fair points for getting before/after comparisons that give a good indication of how little the current game designers understand game design.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But why do it in the first place? Why add more steps? It's counter-intuitive. It's reinventing the wheel.
Exactly. Pointless addition just to sell some combat gauges.


But the gauges are in the box, so it's not even that.
Yeah, but not everyone will get the box, just the book, and they still will need a gauge so they will be sold separately for sure


There were some posts that said the new Kill Team box was called out as a launch box on stream, and thus limited, so it's not just that not everybody will get the box, but not everybody can get the box during the edition's lifespan. That's a pretty decent reason for getting individual movement tool sales.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Albertorius wrote:
Vorian wrote:
I can only repeat that that extra step is multiplying 3 by 2 or something equally trivial.

I don't want to contribute to keeping this tedious line of discussion going so I'll stop there.

Well, that and placing the gauges multiple times instead of once, which will usually add the uncertainties.


I might have missed it, is the idea to place the gauge at the front of the base then move the model forward so the back of the base touches the gauge (effectively making your movement distance the gauge length + the base size), or do you place the gauge next to the model and then move it that far?

If it's the former, it wouldn't be too bad from an uncertainty perspective (until you get models that are bigger than their bases).
   
Made in de
Huge Bone Giant






The picture GW used in the last article makes it look like a move is just the movement stat, not the movement stat plus base size.


Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Vorian wrote:
I can only repeat that that extra step is multiplying 3 by 2 or something equally trivial.

I don't want to contribute to keeping this tedious line of discussion going so I'll stop there.

Well, that and placing the gauges multiple times instead of once, which will usually add the uncertainties.


I might have missed it, is the idea to place the gauge at the front of the base then move the model forward so the back of the base touches the gauge (effectively making your movement distance the gauge length + the base size), or do you place the gauge next to the model and then move it that far?

If it's the former, it wouldn't be too bad from an uncertainty perspective (until you get models that are bigger than their bases).

From what we can see, it's the second: you place the gauge next to the model sequentially as many times as the number in the stat, and the last placing tells you how far can it go.

Particularly because they've already said that "you can just use inches instead".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 12:02:30


 
   
Made in us
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




Xalapa, Veracruz

I would've liked to pick a BS (funny acronym) box, but I'd ratter wait for multiparts. If they release a Battleforce or even CP I'd try to get one instead.

Props to GW for having the Queue system, I wasn't there to check it out, but the real trial by fire will be Tzeentch vs. GK, I suppouse; and then see how savage will the sales get for Battleforces for this year.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 19:40:13


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 CMLR wrote:
I would've liked to pick a BS (funny acronym) box, but I'd ratter wait for multiparts. If they release a Battleforce or even CP I'd try to get one instead.

Props to GW for having the Queue system, I wasn't there to check it out, but the real trial by fire will be Tzeentch vs. GK, I suppouse; and then see how savage will the sales get for Battleforces for this year.


Despite the queue system, the box sold out in less than a minute in Australia.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




Xalapa, Veracruz

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 CMLR wrote:
I would've liked to pick a BS (funny acronym) box, but I'd ratter wait for multiparts. If they release a Battleforce or even CP I'd try to get one instead.

Props to GW for having the Queue system, I wasn't there to check it out, but the real trial by fire will be Tzeentch vs. GK, I suppouse; and then see how savage will the sales get for Battleforces for this year.


Despite the queue system, the box sold out in less than a minute in Australia.


It is 40K and it is not an edition lauch box, and it is Australia.

I would've have like to see how fast it sold out on the international store, but I wasn't going to grab it and stay awake at 4 am for that.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 CMLR wrote:
I would've liked to pick a BS (funny acronym) box, but I'd ratter wait for multiparts.


These ARE multiparts. The Beast Snagga box is just bundled retail products available early plus a special cover for the book and box for the cards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 23:08:12


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, it's like the lumineth boxset. Only the sister one was snapfit/easy to build.

Part of me wonders if they'd pull a Slaves to Darkness start collecting, and release the new boyz in a Combat Patrol box. That's apparently what they're doing with the "old" sisters from the aforementioned boxset
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

That's apparently what they're doing with the "old" sisters from the aforementioned boxset


Really? Whered you hear that? Bit disappointing if thats what the Sisters Start Collecting box ends up being tbh.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Cold-Blooded Saurus Warrior




Xalapa, Veracruz

 Platuan4th wrote:
 CMLR wrote:
I would've liked to pick a BS (funny acronym) box, but I'd ratter wait for multiparts.


These ARE multiparts. The Beast Snagga box is just bundled retail products available early plus a special cover for the book and box for the cards.


Ok, didn't bothered to check any further after the "no longer available". The preview articles made it look like there were only pushfit models for the Boys. They look really limited in poses.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 CMLR wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 CMLR wrote:
I would've liked to pick a BS (funny acronym) box, but I'd ratter wait for multiparts.


These ARE multiparts. The Beast Snagga box is just bundled retail products available early plus a special cover for the book and box for the cards.


Ok, didn't bothered to check any further after the "no longer available". The preview articles made it look like there were only pushfit models for the Boys. They look really limited in poses.


Oh, they are. But they're limited pose multiparts, rather than limited pose pushfits.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





What was the coin and free model for July? I never saw an article about it for this month, anyone know?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Danny76 wrote:
What was the coin and free model for July? I never saw an article about it for this month, anyone know?


The model was one of the new spear SCE but a single sprue model in a different pose from the ones in Dominion.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/18 01:56:43


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

Made a trip to my”local” GW and got one of the Stormcast models. I usually won’t make the trip because of the extra half hour drive past anywhere I would go, but free is free. They had piles of the sprues for it on the table even though the store employee said they only had 4 left when I called and would not put one aside for me. The ones they gave out were ones he had assembled to show how to use the GW tools to cut the sprues and their glue. He also had a half dozen that were painted (basecoated) gold, possibly by young children as parts were missed and it was super sloppy. Employee was playing a game of AOS with a friend and too busy to even answer the ringing phone, much less talk to me once I asked where the Stormcast model was.

I got a free model and should be happy. Felt bad for not buying anything there, which I was going to, but when an employee won’t answer a phone or break away from a game while they are “working”, I didn’t feel quit as bad.

It did get me to stop on my way home and buy the Dominion box set from my local store though , the proportions on the new models and the fact that the armor looks more like armor and not a big robot with a dumb head is a bonus. Plus going to print a bunch of he sallet style helmets for my army after seeing that done in the Warhammer community Article.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






I might be digging up stuff people already know here, but I haven't read this anywhere myself or know of anyone who has spotted it so it may be worth mentioning.

The new DKOK plastics... One of them is a grenadier, I was talking to someone today saying it would be a shame if they don't follow up the DKOK with other units, grenadiers being one of them as they are iconic to the regiment. Then was looking at the images today and it clicked, one is a grenadier. Skull mask and extra armour plating (heavy carapace) on the chest. The only thing it is lacking is the shin armour plates and potentially the heavy lasgun, and the breathing regulator is not on the back but in the front (encased in armour).

Which now begs the question, can the whole unit be built as grenadiers (or scions rules wise). It's the demo veteran, 4th in (2nd from the right), marked as the demo veteran on the killteam website.

This could be a case of re-using the design for the demo specialism as a nod, but here's hoping it means grenadiers can be built, or a proper unit is incoming.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/22 22:21:26


My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Unfortunately, it's not a Grenadier--but it is a nod to the Grenadiers. If you look a bit closer you'll notice that the 'chestplate' is just a slab of metal over top of the rebreather's filtration system...which is chest-mounted here unlike the Grenadiers' backpack mounted system.

The faceplates are supposed to be retained if the wearer so chooses after they've served their obligatory stint in the Grenadiers. Grenadiers get heavier bits for their legs and shoulders which are missing.

The faceplates, additionally, are symbolic. It's for someone to acknowledge that they likely will die while in the Grenadiers. Makes sense that a Demolitions Specialist would retain it IMO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 22:28:51


 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






 Kanluwen wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not a Grenadier--but it is a nod to the Grenadiers. If you look a bit closer you'll notice that the 'chestplate' is just a slab of metal over top of the rebreather's filtration system...which is chest-mounted here unlike the Grenadiers' backpack mounted system.

The faceplates are supposed to be retained if the wearer so chooses after they've served their obligatory stint in the Grenadiers. Grenadiers get heavier bits for their legs and shoulders which are missing.

The faceplates, additionally, are symbolic. It's for someone to acknowledge that they likely will die while in the Grenadiers. Makes sense that a Demolitions Specialist would retain it IMO.


Whilst I agree with what you say, the normal kriegsman have been redesigned in some respect, the attachment to the gas mask (a change I dislike personally), the shoulder plates are larger, the backpack has been changed from a two, to one main compartment... Small but changes none the less. The designs are being updated, and it makes some sense that if they were going to do a duel unit kit, some changes would be made to accommodate with a re-design. I'm not giving up hope... Yet anyway.

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

You're welcome to have hope, I'm just saying that the Grenadier faceplate isn't necessarily exclusive to the Grenadiers themselves.

I have a feeling that if they were going to do a dual unit kit? We would have seen evidence of it on the sprues. As it stands, there were maybe two of these Grenadier faceplates all told. No hellguns/hotshot lasguns, no backpack mounted respirators, no extra plating for the legs, etc.

There is a rumor that there are Krieg Command Squad, Death Rider, and a Combat Engineer/Grenadier sets coming when the DKoK set goes on general release though.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Unfortunately, it's not a Grenadier--but it is a nod to the Grenadiers. If you look a bit closer you'll notice that the 'chestplate' is just a slab of metal over top of the rebreather's filtration system...which is chest-mounted here unlike the Grenadiers' backpack mounted system.

The faceplates are supposed to be retained if the wearer so chooses after they've served their obligatory stint in the Grenadiers. Grenadiers get heavier bits for their legs and shoulders which are missing.

The faceplates, additionally, are symbolic. It's for someone to acknowledge that they likely will die while in the Grenadiers. Makes sense that a Demolitions Specialist would retain it IMO.


Whilst I agree with what you say, the normal kriegsman have been redesigned in some respect, the attachment to the gas mask (a change I dislike personally), the shoulder plates are larger, the backpack has been changed from a two, to one main compartment... Small but changes none the less. The designs are being updated, and it makes some sense that if they were going to do a duel unit kit, some changes would be made to accommodate with a re-design. I'm not giving up hope... Yet anyway.


While the normal guardsman have been redesigned, their new look is a relatively minimal change - pretty much the slightly diferent gasmask and the extra and non-layered shoulder pads. If that Guardsman there is meant to be a Grenadier, then that means they've significant changed their look into something only barely recognizable as Krieg Grenadiers. He doesn't have the shin armour, the proper carapace armour plate, the back-mounted filter or the actual skull mask (it appears to just be painted on). Nearly all the defining elements would be either removed, or replaced with a lesser version.
   
 
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