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This may seem like a fairly obvious and stupid question, but I can't find anywhere in the rule book if artillery are allowed to move and shoot. They say that they function much like infantry, but the rule for barrage weapons (mostly in regard to Ork Kannon Shell shot) doesn't give a stipulation that the unit cannot move and shoot or anything for that matter, only that they are too large for anything but a mounted weapon, which would imply they don't fire and function like infantry. So, long story short, can artillery move and fire?

Depends really. A tank vindicator with its demolisher cannon can move and shoot, but only moving 6 inches (barring Power of the Machine Spirit). If you are moving the weapon, say the ork kannon, then no because it is a weapon designated "heavy" and heavy weapons cannot move and shoot.

Barrage weapons (includes Indirect fire) cannot move and shoot. All tank / walker / skimmer based direct ordinance can move and fire, you just roll 2d6 take the highest instead of 1d6 for scatter.

Moosifier, according to the Ork FAQ, the Shell is a Heavy 1, but the Frag is a Ord. 1, and nowhere in the weapon types section does it give any reference to moving and shooting, only that these weapons are typically mounted. My main beef is that the artillery section states that it moves like infrantry, but doesn't state what if can shoot and when, only that you must have a firing model within 2 inches of the kannon.

From what I'm getting from the artillery rule is that its almost as if the Artillery peice and the crew function seperate, the crew acting as infantry and the kannon as a vehicle. So on that thought, can a vehicle not move and fire a heavy or an ord. weapon since the infantry part of the unit are not actually firing themselves?

the weapon cannot fire without the infantry to fire it. you cant move and shoot same turn =\

I understand your point Moosifer, but how do you account for the Ord. weapons then? No where in the book does it say that intantry cannot move and shoot Ord. weapons because they cant even use them, only vehicles can, so doesn't this set a president that the crew isnt actually the one we should be saying is shooting?

Posted By the_trooper on 12/15/2006 8:57 AM
Barrage weapons (includes Indirect fire) cannot move and shoot. All tank / walker / skimmer based direct ordinance can move and fire, you just roll 2d6 take the highest instead of 1d6 for scatter.

So Moosifer, are you saying that the artillery can in fact move and fire an Ord. weapon?

no, they cannot move and shoot. Regardless of direct/indirect fire, you are firing an ordanance weapon. And whether you have 1 ork kannon or 6, the unit is firing a barrage weapon. So from there we can move to...

Barrage weapons (includes Indirect fire) cannot move and shoot. All tank / walker / skimmer based direct ordinance can move and fire, you just roll 2d6 take the highest instead of 1d6 for scatter.

Moosifer, the Ork Kannon's Frag shot is an Ord. 1 shot, and no where in the book does it say that they cannot move and shoot because the Ord. rules do not apply to infantry units because they cannot even take Ord. weapons, only vehicles can, so therefore does the artillery piece not count as a vehicle in regards to moving and shooting? You keep saying they they cannot move and shoot, but please give a reference from the rules as to why you say this. Ive looked in the Weapon Types section, the Artillery section, and in the Reference sheet in the back, and Ord weapons only appear in the Vehicles Moving and Shooting section, not in infantry.

So in a nut shell, if the artillery then counts as a vehicle seeing as only vehicles can take them, is it not assumed and deduced that they are a vehicle and can therefore move and shoot using the Vehicles Moving and Shooting chart, thereby allowing them to also shoot the Shell shot Heavy 1? If you disagree, please let me know what rule you set as a basis.

Sorry for the double post, but where do you keep bringing up the Barrage rules? No where in this rules debate am I worrying about them, because a Kannon has no Barrage weapon.

I dont have the BGB on me at the moment but it seems to me you are seeing that since literally the kannon has grots and gun you can move the grots and the gun and shoot.

You can move the grots across the field without the kannon, but you cannot shoot the gun without the crew. That is what the infantry put inside the unit count as, is the crew. The artillery peice, ie the cannon, is not considered a vehicle, instead is considered a heavy weapon just like a marine plasma cannon, multi melta, lascannon, missile launcher.

Vehicles like a ork gun trukk can use cannons and move because the unit does not have to phyically move the gun from point a to point b, instead rely on the trukk itself to move gun from point a to point b

I understand the basis of your arguement, but again would like some reference to back it up besides interpretation. You say that the artillery is fired by the grots, ok, ill accept this, but find me a reference that says that infantry cannot fire an Ord. weapon when they move. Believe me, I've looked and its no where to be found. Then you say that artillery cannot move and shoot in general, but where again do you find this rule? In the moving section of the Artillery section is does say that they move as infrantry, but that is as far as the rule takes it. I understand your interpretation that the entire unit cannot move and fire Barrage weapons and Heavy weapons, but how do you explain about the Ord. weapons for Ork Kannons?

Again, since only vehicles can carry an Ord. weapon, and no where does it say you cannot move up to 6 inches and not fire an Ord. weapon, how can you not agree that the unit can move and fire that Ord. weapon, regardless of who its crewed by. If that be the case, is it not infered that an artillery can therefore fire a Heavy weapon as well if it has moved. I understand that barrage weapons would not, only because even in the Vehicles Moving and Shooting sections vehicles cannot move and shoot barrage weapons.

I'm very curious about this question because I would like to know the effectiveness of Ork Artillery. Again, according to what I have read, Ork Kannons and what seems like all artillery function as vehicles for Moving and Shooting purposes based on the Ork Kannon's Ord. 1 shot not being compatible with an infantry based firing system.

Yep, that sounds like a definite hole in the rules! I do not know of any rules that say that Ordnance weapons are heavy weapons, so as long as artillery is allowed to move (don't have any in my army, so I'm hazy on the definite answer to this) then you're fine to move and shoot. (*note - as we all know, though people often get this confused, Ordnance does not equate to barrage and vice versa)

Interest, daBoss

Posted By DaBoss on 12/15/2006 10:50 AM
Again, since only vehicles can carry an Ord. weapon,

Actually, as was pointed out to me in a different discussion over on Warseer recently,  Imperial Guard Demo Charges are an Ordnance weapon carried by Infantry


However, for the actual question:

The second paragraph of the Artillery rules states:
"This unit type behaves differently to a normal infantry unit on the battlefield. The exact changes are detailed below..."

What does that mean?
Quite simply, if the exact changes between normal infantry and Artillery are listed in that section, for anything not mentioned there, the Artillery will function as normal infantry... since it isn't listed as a change.

Which means that Artillery units must remain stationary to fire Heavy weapons, as their rules don't say otherwise so they follow the same rules as normal Infantry.

Since, as you pointed out, there are no rules anywhere in the rulebook requiring a model to remain stationary to fire Ordnance, there is no requirement to do so.

However, as I've always understood it, Kannons aren't Ordnance. While the Ork FAQ for some reason lists the Frag shot as Ordnance, the Codex and Wargear book both only list it as Heavy, with the shot simply being resolved as if it were Ordnance.
While it's obviously not a valid source of rules now, I'm fairly sure the 3rd Ed FAQ spelled out that the weapon was supposed to be considered a Heavy weapon with some Ordnance characteristics, rather than an actual Ordnance weapon.

As Insaniak pointed out, the Wargear book (with the most updated statline) lists both of the Kannon shots as 'Heavy 1' with asterisks telling you that the weapon has special rules you need to check the codex to read.

So Kannons are most definitely heavy weapons.

I just read up on artillery. And I'm no longer convinced that artillery must remain still to fire. The weapons at least eldar are designated as heavy, but the gun models are vehicle type. If the infantry models carried the weapons then clearly they may not move and fire, however, vehicles may move and fire. I think under 4th edition the intent by making the gun models into vehicles was so that they could move and fire weapons, even ordanance (although in the above example I'm pretty sure the Kannon is a heavy weapon using some ordanance characeristics) the only real difference is that most vehicles the crew is on the inside, in this case the crew is on the outside.
If you are looking for a simliar example look at bikes, rapid fire weapons mounted on the bikes fire their full range and all that, but rapid fire weapons on an infantry model have some restrictions.
Thoughts?

The artillery only count as vehicles in that they have an Armor Value instead of a Toughness. For all other purposes they follow the rules for Infantry.

Artillery aren't vehicles, because they don't have a vehicle statline and don't use the glance/pen charts.

The exact quote from the book, the only line at all that says anything is..... "The gun models are treated as vehicles with an armor rating of 10. Any penetrating or glancing hit will destroy a gun - there is no need to roll on the vehicle damage tables"

I did not read anything that says they are vehicles only in that they have armor 10, and if you look at the second sentence you don't need to roll on the vehicle damage tables it seems to imply that they are vehicles with special rules.

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 12/16/2006 12:54 PM
 If the infantry models carried the weapons then clearly they may not move and fire,

The rules don't require the model to be carrying the weapon... just to be firing it.

Regardless of how the weapon is mounted, it is being fired by an Infantry model... and Infantry models must remain stationary to fire heavy weapons.

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 12/16/2006 12:54 PM
the only real difference is that most vehicles the crew is on the inside, in this case the crew is on the outside.

Which is precisely why they work differently.

So far as the rules are concerned, vehicle crew don't really exist. It is the vehicle doing the shooting, following the rules for vehicles shooting.

For Artillery, the crew are the ones doing the firing. The vehicle, such as it is, is just there to hold the weapon off the ground.

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 12/16/2006 12:54 PM
If you are looking for a simliar example look at bikes,

Not even a remotely similar example. The biker rides the bike. He doesn't have to walk, and push the bike along as he goes.

Sorry Insaniak...

Ballistic skill for vehicles represents the accuracy of the crew with the vehicles weapons. SO absolutely crew exists for vehicles. I'll conceed my example of the biker and the carrying a heavy weapon, neither would support artillery moving and firing.

In vehicles, you can't kill the crew and leave the gun. So, no, the crew does NOT exist in the game.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 12/16/2006 1:38 PM
In vehicles, you can't kill the crew and leave the gun. So, no, the crew does NOT exist in the game.

The abilty to kill the crew is not a major consideration with vehicles because the crew is assumed to die when the vehicle is destroyed (pg67). Artillery presents a special rule where the crew may be killed seperately from the vehicle.(pg56)




In third edition where artillery as far as I know was move or shoot. I rarely used it then, I don't use it now, nor do I plan to. In fact I really don't care one way or the other on this topic, but after reading the rules I think its plausable that artillery may move and shoot.

Sazzlefrats:

Done this argument a long time ago. You are incorrect.


Artillery rules (page 56):

"This unit type behaves differently to a normal infantry unit on the battlefield. The exact changes are detailed below."


Heavy Weapon rules (page 29):

"If an infantry unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons."


Since the Artillery rules don't specifically say that they may move and shoot heavy weapons, the unit is bound by the basic infantry restriction on heavy weapons. Whether or not the gun models are "vehicles" is immaterial, because the unit still follows the rules for infantry except where explicitly noted otherwise.

From page 10 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:


And from the paragraph immediately preceding the one you've quoted on page 56 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:


So unless the rules say otherwise, they're treated as infantry, not vehicles.

Based on Yakface, Ghaz and Graatz's reply I'll conceed the issue. Artillery may not move and fire.

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 12/16/2006 1:35 PM
Ballistic skill for vehicles represents the accuracy of the crew with the vehicles weapons.

Of course it does. But it's all one statline, for the vehicle. You don't have a crew statline, only a vehicle statline, and attacks can not specifically target the crew. They only exist in the fluff, as a reason for the vehicle's BS, and stunned and shaken results.

Posted By insaniak on 12/16/2006 10:35 PM

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 12/16/2006 1:35 PM
Ballistic skill for vehicles represents the accuracy of the crew with the vehicles weapons.

Of course it does. But it's all one statline, for the vehicle. You don't have a crew statline, only a vehicle statline, and attacks can not specifically target the crew. They only exist in the fluff, as a reason for the vehicle's BS, and stunned and shaken results.

And that somehow adds to the posters original question about artillery how?

I have no idea. You're the one who brought it up.