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Sorry if it's been hit already, didn't see anything about it when I looked real quick.

Anyways, someone over at Librarium today mentioned hearing from a GW Developer, that the Orc codex was being pushed back even further (didn't even have a time frame) in favor of a new Chaos codex in for Fall 07.

Has anyone else heard anything about this, or is it just scuttlebut that someone came up with trying to feel special?

If that is true I quit.

The IA with the Chaos stuff in it comes out in spring, doesn't it?
So no mix up with that?

And even more on topic, the chaos Codex also needs some release, but it's nowhere near "status orkos".
And besides, it's another 3+ save Codex, so there will be an uproar I guess. A justified one, if I may add.

Greets
Schepp himself

I've heard (on warseer I believe) that GW is going to launch the WFB and 40k chaos books at around the same time.
Now, if that is the case, it can't be for a good while because a number of fairly solid rumours have come in setting the release lineup for WFB as High Elves next, followed by Vampire Counts. It is possible that the VCs will be bumped for Chaos though...

Is pushing the ork dex back a bad thing? I don't think any of us can really comment on that. We don't know how much work GW has done in designing the army or its models.
With a chaos list, there likely wouldn't be that much extra model design work required. We're probably looking at plastic chaos terminators, a few characters and the rumoured daemon engines. Potentially plastic havocs?

Compare that to what a new ork book would require: new vehicles, a bevy of new plastic troops (probably new ork boys, maybe grotz), definitely new nobs, etc. It's simply more work for them.

>> Is pushing the ork dex back a bad thing?

I think it is. Its now the oldest codex out is it not? Certainly much older than the Chaos codex which is still far more competitive than the Orc army is.

It seems to me that competitiveness is the degree to which an army can be exploited to minimize its weaknesses and maximize it's positives. In that sense, I think I'd much rather see the Chaos list, which is "competitive," nerfed down then see the Ork list over-inflated to compensate.

Further, as I mentioned before, if the army and list are so old that they need an overhaul, I'd rather GW take their time in carrying out the task, rather than rushing the job just to satisfy a minority of gamers (the competitive crowd) who want to see the list "effective" now.

Look at the wood elf army book. It took eons to get to, but when they finally released it, it was a pretty good job and I'd guess most people were satisfied. I'd liken the ork dex to that situation.

Except that people have been pitching fits to have the Ork 'dex overhauled and/or re-written for years before 4th ed came out. It's been in sore need of an overhaul for at least five years. Also, remember that the current Chaos dex was done after the Ork dex. And possibly same the first 3rd ed Chaos dex too... anybody remember that far back? Pretty pathetic if so.

On top of this, there really isn't that much that needs to be redone with orks kit wise: Generic truck/buggy sets with enough extra greeblies to make them "uniquely orky", which includes some sort of "looted" sprue so one can convert other kits to Orky goodness, plastic grots, some sort of klan gubbinz sprue to put in with the existing excellent Brian Nelson Boyz sculpts, and possibly some sort of plastic command/nobz set. Chaos can be a snap release afterwards, but GW really, really needs to get the orks out.

This all said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if GW pulls yet another stupid move and delays Orks for another six months or more in favor of Chaos. It could also be someone scuttlebutting, which wouldn't surprise me either (the best scuttlebutt is the plausible scuttlebutt).

After the 4e SM codex, do you really think Chaos is going to get nerfed?

I'm sure Siren will get whacked and Obliterators will come out weaker for wear, but my bet is we'll see something viciously overpowered and woefully undertested a la Drop Pods and Assault Cannons. Perhaps a nerf to daemon summoning followed by Dreadclaws that count as having assault ramps, or a skimmer to go along with Daemonic Possession.

Addendum:

The thought of a combined WHFB and WH40K Chaos release screams plastic daemons to me.

The Lost and the Damned was the quintessential chaos book. Just go back to what worked and run with scissors. As for the Orks, the worst thing about it is the reasoning behind it.Remeber folks, by about that time it will be time to reissue a space marine codex for 6th edition 40k.

Posted By Lowinor on 12/22/2006 10:04 AM
Addendum:

The thought of a combined WHFB and WH40K Chaos release screams plastic daemons to me.

The mere thought of that makes me nauseous. Why replace something that is already excellent with what is guaranteed to be of sub-par quality? If this actually happens, it will only reinforce my belief that the people running GW have absolutely no idea what they are doing and have completely lost touch with their customer base.

Good thing, if this is true, that my Adepticon team didn't decide to do orks for 2008 and instead giving them a good send off in 2007

Pushing off ork codex at this point if like driving another 150 miles after missing your 50,000 mile tune-up and timing-belt replacment. You think it won't hurt that much...and it usually doesn't. I've waited half of my life for an ork codex worth a poop. I'll wait another year.

New rule in Codex: Chaos
Before the game begins, but after deployment, the Chaos player rolls a d6. On a 1-5, the chaos player wins the game. On a 6, the chaos player re-rolls.

You read it here first!

I don't think this makes much sense. The rule set is the ruleset and the Codices are the Codices. There's nothing in the ruleset that says what a "correct" power level is for an army, and there never will be. The only thing that matters is that all the lists are roughly equal in competitiveness.

Perhaps you don't agree, but I'd argue that the Orks are the weakest Codex going right now. It doesn't help anything to make Chaos equally weak. You don't want to pick the one biggest outlier in the field, and then move the field, one Codex at a time, over the course of years, down to that one outlier. You just release a new Codex for the outlier that brings it up to the standard.

Sure, Codex creep is a problem. But it's not a problem because the lists get progressively stronger. The direction of the change isn't relevant. What's relevant is that the change moves towards (or preserves) a nice balance.  So, the problem with Codex creep is that it's creeping, not that it's creeping up.



Valid argument, but heck, why even be that specific... At this point, any Codex release that's not Orks is ridiculous and inappropriate. Orks not only need an update, they've been in the most need of an update for years now. And it's not like they're an obscure, second tier list.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the new Orks not only be done by Brian Nelson, but actually be sculpts OF Brian Nelson.  Just a big, screaming green horde of Choppa-wielding Brian Nelsons.



I don't think that's a logical conclusion. Everyone has their preferences, and you clearly love you some metal, but I think the majority of the opinions I see are positive on plastics. The customer base wants plastic. Not all of them, but I think the large majority. They might have lost touch with you, but I don't think the move to plastic is at all unpopular.  Perhaps a vote thread is in order?

I'm painting some metal Eldar Rangers right now, and while their detail is very nice, clean, and they're great models, they also have a lot of flash and trash near their feet, portions of them that are screwed up (particularly around the feet), etc. Metal offers a lot of detail, but it also tends to sport more flaws. Some can be cleaned up (and cleaning up metals is far more time consuming), and some can't.

I should also point out that those Rangers are part of an Eldar army I'm doing, which is about 42 models, 38 of which are metal and new releases as well.  It's not like metal is in disfavor.  They still release tons of metal models.

Eh. After painting and converting models for years, I've begun to like plastics far more than metals for multiple reasons -- they tend to have less errors in casting, those errors are more easily correctable, they're vastly easier to convert, the models stay together better and resist incidental damage better, they're more dynamic due to more availability of multi-part models -- and the big one for me, which I suspect many will disagree with -- I think the typical (recent) GW plastic model looks better than the typical GW metal model once painted. A lot of it is the lesser detail leads to a more iconic look, which I prefer. It is, of course, 100% subjective, but still -- I attest to the fact that there are people out there with a strong preference for plastic kits. I even think the badness of the new plastic scouts is way overstated (but then again when making my Wolf Scouts I converted SW heads for them and the odd SW bit to busy up the models a bit, so mine are a bit divergent from out-of-the-box scouts, but the ease of doing so is one of the big advantages of plastic...).

That said, the recent Eldar infantry releases were mostly metal (what is it... new metal hawks, scorps, spiders, banshees and dragons compared to new plastic Dire Avengers?), so it's not obvious that new daemons will be plastic. I just suspect that there will be new daemons by virtue of them being the models that are cross-marketed between WHFB and WH40k and fitting in perfectly with a joint release and it seems a perfect opportunity to push the daemon line from metal to plastic.

I'm afraid that I've heard this rumor as well, about Choas getting put before the orks.

The other rumor revolves around the fact that GW has had some difficulty with the new kustomizable and interchangable ork vehicle sprues. Not sure what difficulty, wether it's with the plastics or the designs or what...

Perhaps Chaos coming out before Orks is a lot like the Tau Empire codex - a few tweaks here and there to the rules and some new wargear, a couple new model releases and there you go.

I am more concerned about GW getting the orks right, both codex and models, than concerned about when the codex actually arrives. It will come, I just want it to be a danged good codex, competitive, kustomizable, and fun. If I have to wait 6 more months, so be it. I can entertain myself with 3 other armies.

Posted By pixelgeek on 12/22/2006 8:58 AM
>> Is pushing the ork dex back a bad thing?

I think it is. Its now the oldest codex out is it not? Certainly much older than the Chaos codex which is still far more competitive than the Orc army is.

Nope, the Dark Eldar codex was either the first or second to come out in third edition (I can't remember if Space Marines came before or after it), and they have yet to get a new codex.

Posted By Phryxis on 12/22/2006 10:57 AM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the new Orks not only be done by Brian Nelson, but actually be sculpts OF Brian Nelson.  Just a big, screaming green horde of Choppa-wielding Brian Nelsons.

Sigged.

Ahh but Dark Eldar had a revision in 3ed (and a weapon chart).

Orks need a codex more then Dark Eldar. Dark Eldar need new models more then orks. But chaos will get a new dex first because they sell better then orks and dark eldar combined.

Posted By The Crawling Chaos on 12/22/2006 12:26 PM

Nope, the Dark Eldar codex was either the first or second to come out in third edition (I can't remember if Space Marines came before or after it), and they have yet to get a new codex.

 

This is true.  However, I think the difference is that Dark Eldar would be mostly considered a second-tier army, while Orks are thought of as first-tier and classic, having been a major part of 40k since the Rogue Trader days.  It seems to me that Orks have a much bigger following than DE. 

And I'm not bashing DE, they were my first 40k army at age 14.

If any of this sounds weird, please keep in mind that I just had my tonsils taken out yesterday and am on some major pain-killers.

Right, exactly. I'm not an expert on the 2nd Edition fluff, but it seems like Orks are pretty much the number 2 list in terms of historical fluff prominence. Space Marines are #1, Orks, #2. I'd say the only other top tier lists are Eldar and Chaos.

Dark Eldar are really almost a third tier list, similar to Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, etc., maybe even less, considering how deliberately they're being abandoned by GW.



It doesn't, but when I had my wisdom teeth out, I ended up running around my yard without a shirt on. The painkillers do more than just kill pain. My wife actually videotaped my trying to paint while in a codene induced haze, muttering and drooling blood on myself.

Posted By syr8766 on 12/22/2006 10:36 AM
New rule in Codex: Chaos
Before the game begins, but after deployment, the Chaos player rolls a d6. On a 1-5, the chaos player wins the game. On a 6, the chaos player re-rolls.

You read it here first!

I remember that rule from 2nd edition tyranids!

2nd ed tyranids were HORRIBLE. They kicked everyone's butt with ease. That was back when tyranid warriors had see through chests, but they must have been too risque for today's gaming market!

Posted By whitedragon on 12/22/2006 5:19 PM
2nd ed tyranids were HORRIBLE. They kicked everyone's butt with ease. That was back when tyranid warriors had see through chests, but they must have been too risque for today's gaming market!

Back for the 2nd edition tyranid battle report they faced the mighty marine/IG/Space Elf alliance.  And killed every model on the board.  Of course it helps when you have a chart that lets you kill enemy models before the game starts.

As for the ork codex I'd believe it.  Chaos outsells Orks and really only needs some minor tweeks.  So they do that, make plastic chaos termis and a dread (maybe a plastic demon prince or lord) and that's it.

Orks need a top to bottom redo and that will take a long time.

I agree that Orks need and deserve a new codex more than DE do, I'm just saying we've been waiting longer.

You know what the absolute best part of this "Orks need a major redo and better delay it than do a rush job" argument?

It can be used perpetually, since if you never do anything with the Orks, they never get any better! Amazing!

Posted By syr8766 on 12/22/2006 10:36 AM
New rule in Codex: Chaos
Before the game begins, but after deployment, the Chaos player rolls a d6. On a 1-5, the chaos player wins the game. On a 6, the chaos player re-rolls.

You read it here first!

That rule is broken, even the most obtuse ork (that doesn't have a new codex yet) knows that the game begins before deployment, Yair.

I think.

I would be very surprised if the next Chaos codex wasn't accompanied by the release of a new Chaos dreadnought (possibly plastic).

I think if they introduced new "undivided" lesser daemons a plastic daemon box would work.  I'm just afraid that they will redesign all the current lesser daemons so that they can turn them into generic daemons with deity-specific add-on sprues.

I'm also afraid that they will "dumbify" the Chaos codex.  For example, they might conceivably axe all the legion special rules and resort to a one-size-fits-all list.  They might split the various god-specific marked marines into separate unit entries (like how they were in the 1st 3rd ed Chaos dex) get rid of Chaos marks for everyone except the lord (no Armoury means no Gifts of the Gods).  Marked lord would then make god-specific marines into troops choices.  So if you wanted to play Thousand Sons then you would take a Tzeentch lord and voluntarily restrict yourself to only Tzeentch units.

I like the chaos dex as it is. I wouldn't want it dumbed down any.

And most importantly my Alpha Legion is nearly done and I will be less than happy to be left with 40 converted cultists (half beastman half cadian).

This is where things start getting really ridiculous. The Orks were supposed to get these new kits something like three years ago. New models have already been showing up, all kinds of sketches. If they put it all aside to do something else first, something that isn't needed, then you end up with all that work being pushed back further. No more! I'm sick of this. I've had to turn to borrowing armies to play the game any more without throwing my book against the wall and flipping over the table in disgust. My army cannot compete with any army out there. They get blasted before they get anywhere near combat, can't compete against vehicles without a good deal of luck, and are beaten in an assault most of the time now. You have to cheese up a list to have a chance, and why should you have to do that? It's ridiculous. I had to put aside an army I'm fanatical about because it's gotten to the point where it was obvious they could no longer win in any fashion against anyone. And now you want to suggest we should redo Chaos because they have a bigger following? Hello? Did it ever occur to you that maybe Orks don't have a huge following because their codex stinks and it's near-impossible to do anything with it?

It's an ongoing rotation that gets old. "The vehicles are giving them trouble" (and have for years). "The Orks don't have enough interest" (because the codex is garbage!). "The Orks need more new models" (that can't get done if resources keep being siphoned off to do other stuff).

It just keeps going on and on.