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Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.

If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.

Oooooh spicy! --- Oddly enough battlescribe charges 15pts for blues on a herald + chariot but on an exalter flamer + chariot its free

Niiru wrote:
In my search for an alternative model for an exalted flamer, I have come across a couple options. I did also try and find a mounted mage/sorcerer of some sort, but was unable to find anything. Surpring, actually, even in the Age of Sigmar range, but all the mounted sorcerers were on giant dragons or something, and so were far too big.

I used the Reaper fire elementals as talosi last ed in my DE coven lists. Mounted them all on dreadnought bases and they worked well. Think I might steal your idea and run them as exalted flamers now.

Trancefate wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.

If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.

Oooooh spicy! --- Oddly enough battlescribe charges 15pts for blues on a herald + chariot but on an exalter flamer + chariot its free

So... what are you not sure about. It is exactly what the FAQ said

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Trancefate wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.

If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.

Oooooh spicy! --- Oddly enough battlescribe charges 15pts for blues on a herald + chariot but on an exalter flamer + chariot its free

So... what are you not sure about. It is exactly what the FAQ said

Probably the fact that your comment was more condescension, where as captain Bobs was a copy paste of the FAQ.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Be'Lakor is just not as good as a DP in a Daemon army. That's it. Costs too much, has powers you can't cast neither on him nor the Daemon army. Nothing more to say. I thought he was good too, but then I actually tried making lists and he's nowhere to be seen, while at least 1 DP is in every list


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.

If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.

One last thing though, if you think Belakor is useless in a Daemon army, then you never used him right.
He has reroll 1s, deathhex, prescience (for obliterators which are in fact daemons), or whatever power.
Sure some are heretic astartes only, but he can only cast 2. so if you take deathhex and infernal gaze or whatever, his powers arent useless. just as i stated with oblits. he has 7 attacks, where 6 of them are a big sword that rips everything apart, can fly 14" and LD malus aura and Reroll failed saves.
I dunno but he is better than a regular daemon prince.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Be'Lakor is just not as good as a DP in a Daemon army. That's it. Costs too much, has powers you can't cast neither on him nor the Daemon army. Nothing more to say. I thought he was good too, but then I actually tried making lists and he's nowhere to be seen, while at least 1 DP is in every list


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.

If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.

Huh, not sure about that, seeing as the original rules as written were completely unclear on the subject. My interpretation was by far the most likely, as things like a gun turrets crew can still shoot and get their own separate attacks and wounds. Your definition isn't supported by any other rules I can think of.

Except of course there's that faq that I hadn't noticed existing, which shows its actually meant to just be a "15 points for - 1 to psychic rolls" buff lol. Not sure if thats worth the 15points or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:

Niiru wrote:
In my search for an alternative model for an exalted flamer, I have come across a couple options. I did also try and find a mounted mage/sorcerer of some sort, but was unable to find anything. Surpring, actually, even in the Age of Sigmar range, but all the mounted sorcerers were on giant dragons or something, and so were far too big.

I used the Reaper fire elementals as talosi last ed in my DE coven lists. Mounted them all on dreadnought bases and they worked well. Think I might steal your idea and run them as exalted flamers now.

Haha when I read this at first I imagined the fire elementals mounted onto dreadnought *legs*, not just 60mm bases. Would have been funny. Could you post a photo of an elemental next to a csm or something, as it's hard to see scale in the pics I've found. Curious what they'd look like on tabletop. Are they talos sized?

Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability

The GT list argument
We have different oppinions, its okay.

IMO the only thing regular DP are used over him, is because of the cheaper costs (most of the time double talon princes)
But he is better than a regular DP.

Personally I think Be'lakor shines best in a combined Daemons/CSM list. He can buff the CSM units with his powers, but his aura benefits Daemons, which I guess could include CSM Daemon units like Obliterators. I'm still looking for ways to make him work well; my only time trying him out he didn't accomplish a whole lot. But that was due to bad tactics on my part rather than just the old "Be'lakor sucks" routine.

What is it that makes the burning chariot so much better than flamers, is it the heavy weapon with better str and -ap? would this mean that if i'm likely to face more standard units/troops than heavy stuff I may want to consider flamers over chariots?

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability

The GT list argument
We have different oppinions, its okay.

IMO the only thing regular DP are used over him, is because of the cheaper costs (most of the time double talon princes)
But he is better than a regular DP.

Okay, what is a better view of the Meta and what is strong and what isn't. Ofc Be'Lakor is better than a DP. He's supposed to be, being 50 points more expensive. However he is NOT 50 pts better.
When you tell someone to buy a miniature and say "he's awesome" or whatever, that's what I have a problem with. Try "He's not bad in-game, but I really like him from the lore" or something along those lines

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability

The GT list argument
We have different oppinions, its okay.

IMO the only thing regular DP are used over him, is because of the cheaper costs (most of the time double talon princes)
But he is better than a regular DP.

Okay, what is a better view of the Meta and what is strong and what isn't. Ofc Be'Lakor is better than a DP. He's supposed to be, being 50 points more expensive. However he is NOT 50 pts better.
When you tell someone to buy a miniature and say "he's awesome" or whatever, that's what I have a problem with. Try "He's not bad in-game, but I really like him from the lore" or something along those lines

LOL
i dont tell anybody to buy anything. and FOR ME in MY games belakor rocked!
so why shouldnt i recommend him?

i'll let it go now....cause its getting off-topic somehow.

How do we feel about chaos spawn and Gigantic chaos spawn? Do they fulfill the same role? One is certainly more economical, and I could get some from the FLGS tomorrow rather than order from FW. If Gigantics are a superior option however, I think i'm ready to buy a couple. Also --- I'm assuming given both models' atrocious move speed after taking a single wound that you would want to summon them, or use them as objective sponges?

I'm considering trying some out as honestly I want some more character screen and don't wanna spend another $100+ for 30 brimstone horrors and 30 blue horrors to add to my pile of unused horrors.

My other thoughts were maybe some t-sons tzaangor's? but I don't know anything about them I just know I want some t-suns models to paint eventually.

Trancefate wrote:
How do we feel about chaos spawn and Gigantic chaos spawn? Do they fulfill the same role? One is certainly more economical, and I could get some from the FLGS tomorrow rather than order from FW. If Gigantics are a superior option however, I think i'm ready to buy a couple. Also --- I'm assuming given both models' atrocious move speed after taking a single wound that you would want to summon them, or use them as objective sponges?

I'm considering trying some out as honestly I want some more character screen and don't wanna spend another $100+ for 30 brimstone horrors and 30 blue horrors to add to my pile of unused horrors.

My other thoughts were maybe some t-sons tzaangor's? but I don't know anything about them I just know I want some t-suns models to paint eventually.

I plan to run one or two giant spawns in my planned list, but I am converting my own models for it. Considering all the bits and stuff I'm buying for it, it'll probably not work out that much cheaper lol but I prefer my version of the giant spawn (fitting my theme, at least).

Giant spawn does slow down below 10 wounds thats true, but remember that you roll for their stats every turn, and a roll of a 1 or 6 on any of the dice you roll leads to gaining more wounds. Your enemy pretty much has to shoot at them to stop them turning into monsters, which for 75 points isn't a bad investment I don't think.

If you're lucky, beginning of turn 1 you might be straight up to 13 wounds, and if you ever get into combat you'll get 3 dice rolls per turn where you might gain wounds... that 3-9 wounds *per turn*. Your opponent decides to charge you in their turn? Oops, have to roll for strength and attacks again, 2-6 more wounds please.

Has anyone been running the Lord of Change? I honestly feel that it might just be inferior to running multiple cheaper costed psykers, but I love the model...

Lords of Change are bad for a number of reasons - it's very expensive points wise without doing anything to justify the cost, it has a weak melee profile compared to other units of its size, the Tzeentch discipline sucks so having two Tzeentch powers sucks... I can't think of any instance where having a Lord of Change would be better than having multiple Heralds of equivalent cost.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Lords of Change are bad for a number of reasons - it's very expensive points wise without doing anything to justify the cost, it has a weak melee profile compared to other units of its size, the Tzeentch discipline sucks so having two Tzeentch powers sucks... I can't think of any instance where having a Lord of Change would be better than having multiple Heralds of equivalent cost.

I have found this to be the case. I just proxy mine as aetaos'rau'keres on occasion - you know, for when I want to wreck face in the name of Tzeentch.

Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.

I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.

I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.

A worthy point. I should have added, perhaps, I play amongst friends where this has been pre-agreed as a reasonable proxy (and in return I'll accept opponents using a rhino as a predator or something for a game). In tournaments etc I'm sure it's different.

Totally. With buddies, go nuts and do whatever you'd like. I just make sure to note the distinction between formats, because you'll be surprised how often people are astounded when you tell them that their proxy with a 3" Difference in height alone won't fly. Haha. Carry on, Friend.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Lords of Change are bad for a number of reasons - it's very expensive points wise without doing anything to justify the cost, it has a weak melee profile compared to other units of its size, the Tzeentch discipline sucks so having two Tzeentch powers sucks... I can't think of any instance where having a Lord of Change would be better than having multiple Heralds of equivalent cost.

This is what I feared, it's unfortunate to hear, but you're totally right.

I think just running 4x Herald of Tzeentch would be better than running a single Lord of Change :(

Hopefully with the release of a Chaos Daemons codex, or even a Thousand Sons Codex, the Tzeentch Spellcasting will be reworked to actually be useful...

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.

I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.

Another note here is make sure it's at least close to the right height if you are gonna use counts-as. Last tournament I went to my second round opponent tried to get me disqualified cause my aetaos' counts as is 8 3/4" tall whereas the actual model is 9 1/2"(arguable as there technically is no model other than fw LoC that everyone just accepts as him). Mind you I had sent in all my counts as (I use a fair amount cause rule of cool) into the TO the previous week to make sure everything I brought would be fine, but he still argued for a good twenty minutes and ended up just leaving after our game.

I know not exactly on topic but when it comes to aetaos people get real salty so it's best be prepared is all I'm saying xD

Ecdain wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.

I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.

Another note here is make sure it's at least close to the right height if you are gonna use counts-as. Last tournament I went to my second round opponent tried to get me disqualified cause my aetaos' counts as is 8 3/4" tall whereas the actual model is 9 1/2"(arguable as there technically is no model other than fw LoC that everyone just accepts as him). Mind you I had sent in all my counts as (I use a fair amount cause rule of cool) into the TO the previous week to make sure everything I brought would be fine, but he still argued for a good twenty minutes and ended up just leaving after our game.

I know not exactly on topic but when it comes to aetaos people get real salty so it's best be prepared is all I'm saying xD

...considering how line of sight works in this game, and that you no longer get cover saves if you're hiding behind other units, I don't even see how that 3/4" height difference could ever be in a situation where it would make a difference to a game...

If you were an inch *narrower*, then maybe you could argue it as you'd be able to hide behind smaller pieces of terrain (but again, this would depend on the terrain on the table). But height seems irrelevant in 8th. Unless you shrank the unit down to like 4" tall so it could hide behind building terrain.

Niiru wrote:

Ecdain wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.

I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.

Another note here is make sure it's at least close to the right height if you are gonna use counts-as. Last tournament I went to my second round opponent tried to get me disqualified cause my aetaos' counts as is 8 3/4" tall whereas the actual model is 9 1/2"(arguable as there technically is no model other than fw LoC that everyone just accepts as him). Mind you I had sent in all my counts as (I use a fair amount cause rule of cool) into the TO the previous week to make sure everything I brought would be fine, but he still argued for a good twenty minutes and ended up just leaving after our game.

I know not exactly on topic but when it comes to aetaos people get real salty so it's best be prepared is all I'm saying xD

...considering how line of sight works in this game, and that you no longer get cover saves if you're hiding behind other units, I don't even see how that 3/4" height difference could ever be in a situation where it would make a difference to a game...

If you were an inch *narrower*, then maybe you could argue it as you'd be able to hide behind smaller pieces of terrain (but again, this would depend on the terrain on the table). But height seems irrelevant in 8th. Unless you shrank the unit down to like 4" tall so it could hide behind building terrain.

If that extra 3/4 of an inch allows you to somehow ignore LOS from an opponent who could normally clip your head, or Aetaos' enormous staff, then it's an advantage. You can gain LoS to a model from any point on the actual model in 8th, opposed to the "base" etc as 7th and such worked previously. This makes proxies and "counts as" far more divisive, because it's very easy to accidentally, or purposefully, gain an advantage or possibly more importantly have it perceived that you are doing so.

Edit: It's also worth noting, the reason WHY it's likely such a huge issue for people It isn't some fluffy troop choice you converted for your army, or some HQ you gave a different set of arms to fit a theme. It's a 700pt Superheavy montrosity that is so powerful it's banned from major events. You're actively gaming the system when using the model, and doing anything else to try to stretch that is when the cheese factor comes in and the patience dwindles.

Like I've quoted in my signature, you're definitely not a dick for using your rules. That's always fine. Just be as fair as possible to your opponent.

What about using LoC model with "always in line of sight" rule

I, as an individual, would not be thrilled with that in a competitive setting. With my buddies, I don't care. However, my opinion is and always will be your "conversion" is YOUR obligation to bring the best model possible to your opponent. Saying "This smaller, cheaper model counts as this bigger, much more expensive model" that in this instance is so powerful, again, it's not even allowed in most large events, I'm less interested in believing you're doing your best to bring an appropriate model.

However, I'm just a dude. I'm not your TO.

I wouldn't play the dude in Canada who uses clay models to represent giant spawn, I'm not gonna play someone using a LoC as Aetaos. These are simply personal decisions.

Meh... Aetaos isn't worth the 700pts in a tourney setting imo.

Yes, the shooting attack is bitch'n but it's only one target per turn and TzPowers sucks ass.

I'd rather drop Aetaos for Morty and try to squeeze in a Fireraptor....

Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it

It also seems like he might start being banned on the ITC circuit (Frontline Gaming/ SOCAL Open has already done that) :(