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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
I didn't realize I could run Necrons as Space Marines.

Again, using starter products as some kind of "gotcha" just shows a wild misunderstanding of what drives sales of certain sets vs others.

We were talking about value of a set, not if you want it or not. Want is subjective. I don't want the BT set because of aesthetic reasons, but if the set had 30 marines in it, it'd definitely have good value for your money.

But we have direct comparison with similarly priced boxes from GW released only a few months back, and we can see that you are not getting as many models as in those sets. For your dollars, you are now getting fewer figures. It's objectively worse value proposition from contents perspective.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

Cronch wrote:
we can see that you are not getting as many models as in those sets. For your dollars, you are now getting fewer figures.


Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.

So yes, by a certain objective value, you're correct, but that's only good for being "right" on the internet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/24 13:29:23


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Discount sets not being discount if you only use part? Hello to water is liquid level of statement. Or sun is hot.

2021 painted/bought: 857/1043 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Platuan4th wrote:
Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.

I mean, yes... but by that metric, you can justify absolutely everything and anything.

If a comparable set of minis, recently released, costs the same but has, say, 50% more stuff inside, there's still objectively one that's worse value than the other.

If only because you'll have to either get more, hence you'll spend even more, or because to get to the same place you spent more in the first place.

"What I like" can have a place on whether I buy something or not, but not on the "objective value" of it.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.

Except of course it should, because there's always the option to just not buy, because you think the price is not good for what you're getting. Unlike food, there is no urgency there unless you're actually addicted.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Okay so do you people believe that five $1 bills is worth more than a single $5 bill? You can argue until you’re blue in the face that there’s more value in having the flexibility of that $5 already being broken down, or if the bills are newly printed and haven’t been handled, but you still only have $5.

Now apply to $200 worth of Space Marine models vs $200 worth of Snagga models. Hell, for the fun of it, go back to the Apocalypse boxes where Imperial Knights only had 3 models in their box worth $250 while Mechanicus got 10 models worth $250. Same exact thing, 3 is a smaller number than 10, but the monetary value of the kits included was exactly the same.

What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.

"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/24 14:03:29


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 zend wrote:

What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.


Telling people what they 'actually mean,' claiming that it 'wasn't meant for that' and they should just 'get over it' isn't a compelling argument. You're just refusing to listen.
Also, translation issues are a thing. Even as a native English speaker, just the way you've emphasized DEAL and "value" is quite puzzling. Those meaning partially overlap when talking about a trade, but in the context of a set retail price, they mean a lot less. And when advertisers use them to sell 'bargains,' they mean almost nothing- its pure manipulation to exploit people into buying.

tneva82 wrote:Discount sets not being discount if you only use part? Hello to water is liquid level of statement. Or sun is hot.

Yeah, its a weird one. It also dismisses anyone who actually wants to use both parts, or is part of a group.. or anything really.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




 Matrindur wrote:
Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.

This is... pretty disappointing, but not really surprising. Better buy thos upgrade sprueamirit?!
Togusa wrote:
So you don't like it, why waste so much of your time being upset and arguing about it online? It's not going to magically change the sprues or what is in the book? It sounds like the product isn't for you.

Always bogles my mind how people can end up with such ... "strange" reasoning.
Do you always keep quiet about stuff that are wrong your life? Do you just suck it up and shut up?
Do you even know what a forum is supposed to be for? (I'm just going to spell it out just in case, its to share your opinion)
Do you even realize that we are a consumer base and that the best way to bring change is to let our displeasure known, right?.
RIGHT?

 Albertorius wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.

I mean, yes... but by that metric, you can justify absolutely everything and anything..


Yup, they know it and that's why they always default on that pile of sophistry.
Remember, objectivity doesn't matter, only subjectivity is important, but only if its "good" subjectivity, otherwise you are just a "troll".

Why are you even responding to my post if you don’t like it? Why don’t you take your own advice and stop "wasting so much of your time being upset" about it?
Togusa wrote:

I mean Templars have dreadnoughts.
Dreadnoughts have amazing rules at present.
Dreadnoughts are even better in a Templars army where they can get a 5++ increasing their resilience.
The Redemptor is a great looking model.

Seems like a win-win to me. I am certainly enjoying building the one that came in my BT box, the mini-Gatling gun is pretty dope.

Except, yaknow, when you buy a Black Templar specific box at the release of a new batch of black templar unit, the logical thing to expect is to get just that, right?
Remember that dread in the beast snaga box?

 zend wrote:
Get over it and move on.




Cronch wrote:

"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.

Exactly. It's always funny to see people think they are being very smart while actively working against their own interest and in favor of multibillion companies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/24 20:47:06


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

(HN) wrote:
Do you even realize that we are a consumer base and that the best way to bring change is to let our displeasure known, right?.
RIGHT?
You got a box for yourself. The train to let GW know this kind of thing doesn't jive with you is gone, unless you refund it.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

Spoiler:

(HN) wrote:
 Matrindur wrote:
Only just realized you don't get enough shoulder pads in the crusader squad kit to build the Sword Brother as a normal Initiate?
You get 8 Neophyte, 10 Initiate and 2 Sword Brother shoulder pad per 10 guys so if you want to have a 20 man unit (meaning you want to build a Sword Brother as an Initiate) you have to buy the upgrade sprue.

This is... pretty disappointing, but not really surprising. Better buy thos upgrade sprueamirit?!
Togusa wrote:
So you don't like it, why waste so much of your time being upset and arguing about it online? It's not going to magically change the sprues or what is in the book? It sounds like the product isn't for you.

Always bogles my mind how people can end up with such ... "strange" reasoning.
Do you always keep quiet about stuff that are wrong your life? Do you just suck it up and shut up?
Do you even know what a forum is supposed to be for? (I'm just going to spell it out just in case, its to share your opinion)
Do you even realize that we are a consumer base and that the best way to bring change is to let our displeasure known, right?.
RIGHT?

 Albertorius wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Yes, Kan gets that. What you're not getting is that that only matters if what you're looking for is just buying stuff to own the most stuff. If a person buys based on what they actually, objectively plan to use, it doesn't have that much value.

I mean, yes... but by that metric, you can justify absolutely everything and anything..


Yup, they know it and that's why they always default on that pile of sophistry.
Remember, objectivity doesn't matter, only subjectivity is important, but only if its "good" subjectivity, otherwise you are just a "troll".

Why are you even responding to my post if you don’t like it? Why don’t you take your own advice and stop "wasting so much of your time being upset" about it?
Togusa wrote:

I mean Templars have dreadnoughts.
Dreadnoughts have amazing rules at present.
Dreadnoughts are even better in a Templars army where they can get a 5++ increasing their resilience.
The Redemptor is a great looking model.

Seems like a win-win to me. I am certainly enjoying building the one that came in my BT box, the mini-Gatling gun is pretty dope.

Except, yaknow, when you buy a Black Templar specific box at the release of a new batch of black templar unit, the logical thing to expect is to get just that, right?
Remember that dread in the beast snaga box?

 zend wrote:
Get over it and move on.




Cronch wrote:

"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.

Exactly. It's always funny to see people think they are being very smart while actively working against their own interest and in favor of multibillion companies.


The box and models are produced. The boat sailed on that one. Honest bro, it seems like you're crying simply to be crying about this. Pages and pages of worthless replies when you KNOW that nothing is going to change. These products and the way the models are designed and written is the hobby now. If that's not what you're looking for, there are plenty of fine other games on the market out there. Have at it.

Also, why do you keep crying about the Redemptor? Can black templars have Redemptors? Yes, the answer is yes. It's a useable (great looking) model (with above average rules) that looks quite good along side the rest of the models in the box. I'm sorry that you don't like it, I'd suggest that you not buy this product as it doesn't seem to be for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
What you people are meaning to say is this is a bad DEAL instead of “value”, but these boxes weren’t intended to be some kind of deal, so it’s a bunk point. Get over it and move on.

"I paid the same for less but it's ok, the value is there". ultimately all it does is ensure they keep putting fewer models into boxes for the same price, but hey, that's none of my business i guess.


Not. Every. Person. Enjoys. The. Hobby. The. Same. Way.

I factor time, model quality, painting, and games played into whether or not it was worth the cost.

So for example:

If I spend 200$ on a box, build the models but do not paint them, and play three games with them over a 6 month period, and then decide to sell them at 60% the cost because I'm not having fun. That's a waste of 200$ to me.

If I spend 200$ on a box, build AND paint the models, and then play a dozen dozen games with them over a 6 month period and intend to keep them forever. That's a good buy to me.

For me, the box was worth every penny I paid for it. I'm quite happy with it. I'm sorry that others are not, I'd advise those who aren't to not purchase the box.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/25 08:53:49


 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




a_typical_hero wrote:
You got a box for yourself. The train to let GW know this kind of thing doesn't jive with you is gone, unless you refund it.

Are you 12?
Seriously asking here, because nobody over that age should still believe that boycott actually works.

Yeah, I got that box, I always wanted to return to black templar since 3rd and now is the best time for that.

I also spent more money on third party bits than on the box because GW can't do anything that doesn't look like a generic mass produced space trooper when it comes to marines these days.
I got that box because it was literally the last thing that felt like it could be worth the shot from GW and the result?
Welp, the book is shocking bad in every aspects (I've already covered it) and the minies are ... okay?
I mean, objectively they are still that trash monopose and very generic looking gak that 40k (and space marines in particular) have become now, but with the pile of 3rd bits I'll be able to do something cool and unique with it...
As cool and unique as the barebone gear option let you do anyway.

What it worth the money? feth no, and I think this was probably the last straw for me, I'll be getting the BT combat patrol to round up my army and will live on my pile of shame for the time being since it's pretty clear that GW doesn't fit the quality requirement I expect from them.

After the deception that was the Death Guard, the New Crons, the Deathwatch and the total abandonment of my old love the tyranids, I'm at a point where I feel like GW isn't able to give me what I expect from them.
Their rules are getting worst and worst (the bloating of 9th is just hillarious if you take a step back and look at it objectively), the minies are more and more Hobby unfriendly, the overal releases are rarely aimed at the right targets.

So yeah. This box will be my last GW purchase for a long bit, maybe ever.I always was more a hobby guy than a gamer anyway, my enjoyment comes from building, kitbashing and painting, so I have more than enough pile of shame to occupy me for a while, especially with some 3rd party bits.

Wana know what I'm doing mostly this days? Collecting old 2nd metal minies.

Togusa wrote:
The box and models are produced. The boat sailed on that one. Honest bro, it seems like you're crying simply to be crying about this. Pages and pages of worthless replies when you KNOW that nothing is going to change. These products and the way the models are designed and written is the hobby now. If that's not what you're looking for, there are plenty of fine other games on the market out there. Have at it.

Right. So every post made in that third grade forum can only be make with the express goal of changing things?
In what world are you living on exactly?

Funnily enough to get back at the start of the post, while boycotting never worked, having consumer grievances spread to existing or potential new customer ACTUALLY do work, so in a way, I'm doing my part in trying to get things change, even if its not my main goal here, while what you are doing is the exact opposite (gigbrain move telling people to just leave, that have always been a wining strategy).

Togusa wrote:
Also, why do you keep crying about the Redemptor? Can black templars have Redemptors? Yes, the answer is yes. It's a useable (great looking) model (with above average rules) that looks quite good along side the rest of the models in the box. I'm sorry that you don't like it, I'd suggest that you not buy this product as it doesn't seem to be for you.

Do you want me to repeat what I've already said many times, yaknow, about the snagga box and the dread, or the fact that its obvious padding in a box that people want for the new BT stuff?
Do you even know how to read "bro" are you just just here to repeat some very empty lines others have already used?

Also, nice wallquoting my dude.

Togusa wrote:
Not. Every. Person. Enjoys. The. Hobby. The. Same. Way.

The MASSIVE irony of a guy telling others to just leave if they don't enjoy the hobby the way they do, to suddenly use the good ol "SuBjEcTiViTy" defense that directly contradict it a second later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/25 00:52:39


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Can this thread just die already? Either you see value in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/25 11:46:41


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 bullyboy wrote:
Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.


By that logic GW could release a single Marine for 199$ and we wouldn't be able to complain because that's "completely subjective value" too.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

 bullyboy wrote:
Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.


I expect it will be closed once the last few kits get a street date.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/25 08:53:07


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

People in this thread absolutely seething others have standards

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in fr
Crazed Zealot





France

I'm pretty new to this forum, and I must admit I wasn't expecting such a shitstorm after sharing my enjoyment.

After many years without buying any GW products because it didn't appeal me, because they were lazy and only giving love to ultramarines, now that they are really putting efforts into renewing things and upgrading quality, making everything plastic and easy to kitbash, going back into grimdark (at least a little) I'm really surprised by the amount of saltiness. I get that everything is not perfect but some people here are not really objective or constructive.

The only complain that I really understand is the overpricing, but as I am more into collecting/painting than playing, this is not much of an issue for me (pile of shame speaking). I understand that the hobby being more and more expensive is a problem, and should be talked about.
The monopose issue can be seen as a problem too, but if you are old enough you should remember pewters models and it was far worse than anything that has been released recently (Sword Brethren anyone ?). I have some old BT upgrade sprues too, the quality and details is gak comparing with recents sprues. @(HN), you talk about the old edition a lot, but I don't remember having a dedicated plastic kit for BT before. All we had was pewter scouts and upgrade sprue for regular marines.

Regarding the Black Templar Army Set, I don't think of any objective reason to belive this is a good "deal", for the content is pretty short. But some people here must understand that enjoyment can be found in others things than quantity of model or quantity of rules. We could disagree and exchange point of view, but if the box isn't for you just don't buy it. I'm not talking about boycott, just save yourself from deception. This limited edition was clearly using nostalgia and visual criteria as selling argument. Reasonable people (with high standards ) who only want "a good deal" should wait for the patrol box, which contains more models for a more affordable price. Or stick to Codex Astartes Chapters that sells more and therefore have more kits and can be collected without spending too much. But saying this could be seen as gatekeeping and I don't want to do that. If you really like Black Templars, just be aware that we are a subfaction, we are but a little part of the GW customer base, so they can't give us as much as Ultramarines players.

I work in the industry, not the same domain as GW but I kinda know how it works. People creating minis, lore and art can be passionate and aware of player expectations, but they are tied by marketting and business teams. If your boss tell you "you have one sprue, sized X,Y, to make a multipart crusader squad, we won't invest more for a subfaction", well, you have to deal with it, and they did a pretty good job, using compromises. At the end of the day, if the box sells well, the team that worked on it would probably be praised and affected to other projects, maybe able to negociate more budget for incomming releases. I'm pretty optimistic for the future, as it seems at least some of our requests are slowly taken into account, since Indomitus it's going better and better.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/25 08:01:42


 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





You just need to learn who to put on ignore. Many, many slimeballs, morons, etc. Becomes more tolerable with liberal use of ignore button (this thread in particular seems pretty packed with losers, I have strings of up to 4 replies in a row hidden due to ignores).
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.


By that logic GW could release a single Marine for 199$ and we wouldn't be able to complain because that's "completely subjective value" too.


That is subjective value.

People either buy at the price or don't. The endless complaining whilst still buying does nothing.



   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.


By that logic GW could release a single Marine for 199$ and we wouldn't be able to complain because that's "completely subjective value" too.


Correct. If GW released a single marine of maybe only 10 made, it could absolutely have a value of $199. You could probably resell it for more.
The BT box, like the sisters box before it, had a unique cover, which again to many, adds value.
This is how it works. It may not have value to you, but no one is forcing you to buy it or expecting you to see the same value as everyone else.

edit: And if to just solidify my position, I just clicked on the news a few minute ago which had these 2 posts..
Michael Jordan trainers go for $1.47 million , and a Picasso painting sold for $110 million. They're shoes and a painting, objectively attach a price to that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/25 12:19:06


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

If you love the product so much, why do you spend your time here arguing instead of enjoying it?

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 bullyboy wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Can this thread just die already? Either youbsee calue in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.


By that logic GW could release a single Marine for 199$ and we wouldn't be able to complain because that's "completely subjective value" too.


Correct. If GW released a single marine of maybe only 10 made, it could absolutely have a value of $199. You could probably resell it for more.
The BT box, like the sisters box before it, had a unique cover, which again to many, adds value.
This is how it works. It may not have value to you, but no one is forcing you to buy it or expecting you to see the same value as everyone else.

edit: And if to just solidify my position, I just clicked on the news a few minute ago which had these 2 posts..
Michael Jordan trainers go for $1.47 million , and a Picasso painting sold for $110 million. They're shoes and a painting, objectively attach a price to that.


Yes. Absolutely the same thing.

Good golly.
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Cronch wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here


Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

 NAVARRO wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here


Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.


Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 Platuan4th wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here


Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.


Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.


And some people spend a little too many 2 minutes defending multi-million dollar corporations.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here


Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.


Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.


And some people spend a little too many 2 minutes defending multi-million dollar corporations.


It's not always about defending the multi-million dollar business so much as calling out the trolls.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

 Theophony wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

A post here takes about 2 minutes. Some people have weird fantasies about how much time others spend "hating" stuff here


Time and energy are different things...XD But the point was something else.


Yup. Some people spend a little too many "2 minutes" posting haterade.


And some people spend a little too many 2 minutes defending multi-million dollar corporations.


It's not always about defending the multi-million dollar business so much as calling out the trolls.


Or people getting tired of a certain subset of posters gakking excess negativity on every thread.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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 bullyboy wrote:
Can this thread just die already? Either you see value in a product or you don't, it's completely subjective. Period.

This extreme sophistry needs to die.
It’s a lie born from sunk cost fallacy of people desperate to justify their purchase and it’s one GW love to encourage with intentionally confusing pricing that aim at making hard to access any kind of prices baseline.

 sigismund22 wrote:
I'm pretty new to this forum, and I must admit I wasn't expecting such a shitstorm after sharing my enjoyment.

I think you are under the false assumption that your particular post is what started the “shitstorm”, let me reassure you, it’s really not, just looking at the thread history before you pop up should be more than enough proof of that.

 sigismund22 wrote:
After many years without buying any GW products because it didn't appeal me, because they were lazy and only giving love to ultramarines, now that they are really putting efforts into renewing things and upgrading quality, making everything plastic and easy to kitbash, going back into grimdark (at least a little) .

This paragraph honestly left me scratching my head.
It really is just telling me (and again, don’t take it as a personal attack, it’s just an observation) that you may not really know what you are talking about.
Outside of 4th and maybe 5th marine dex, GW didn’t really give more love to them than other chapters, outside of using them as the poster boy (unlike Space Wolves, Blood & Dark Angels that got actual unique units).
As of for now, calling the primaris bloating calling it “putting effort into renewing things and upgrading quality” is a pretty biased way of presenting what is really just GW attempt at forcing existing SM player to buy a new army by making their existing one obsolete.
Do the primaris look better sculptwise than the first born? Well, yes, of course, since they are using better moulding technology and have adopted the “true scale”, both things that could have perfectly be done with the first born without the nead of bringing a new marine line (see what’s going on on the chaos marine side).
Making everything to plastic?
I mean… yeah, they have been doing that for a decade now.
Making it easier to kitbash? What the feth are you talking about? Marines in particular have never been worse in term of kitbashability both due to their monopose kits and their barebone gear option that basically removed everything that isn’t on the sprue.
This is probably the biggest red flag that makes me think you are just a new comer talking out of your ass, which would explain why your standard is so low: You clearly don’t know what the game use to have.
As for the grimdark… what? Again, this is a big red flag for me.
Just slapping a tabard on a clean cut brand new marine in brand new armor doesn’t make it grimdark, if anything slapping full squeletons in front of shields is what we call Grimderp, not grimdark.
 sigismund22 wrote:
I'm really surprised by the amount of saltiness. I get that everything is not perfect but some people here are not really objective or constructive.

What I’m really surprised about is that you are trying to pass as someone that knows what he is talking about in order to justify you position and try to undermine people with legitimate grievances.
You like it? Fine, nobody is stopping you from doing that, but don’t come here trying to pretend this meats your expectation when you have clearly none since you don’t know what already existed in the past.
 sigismund22 wrote:
The only complain that I really understand is the overpricing, but as I am more into collecting/painting than playing, this is not much of an issue for me (pile of shame speaking). I understand that the hobby being more and more expensive is a problem, and should be talked about.

So… Since when exactly getting LESS individual minies to paint and collect “doesn’t really impact you”? If anything the hobbyist have been the ones that got the most impacted with these changes, since players care more about a point value, and GW has focused on increasing the point cost of most things to justify selling you less mini (because you get the same “points” for the cost, just less minies).
Again, this is clearly the kind of statement someone that doesn’t really know what he’s talking about would make.
 sigismund22 wrote:
The monopose issue can be seen as a problem too, but if you are old enough you should remember pewters models and it was far worse than anything that has been released recently (Sword Brethren anyone ?).

Ha yes, the metal minies, sure. Because we clearly just jumped from metal to primaris with nothing in between… What?

 sigismund22 wrote:
The I have some old BT upgrade sprues too, the quality and details is gak comparing with recents sprues.

Again, NO gak that brand new sprues will have smaller and crisper details moulding than 20years old minies. And just like with the rest of the primaris the problem isn’t the detail quality, that’s a given, the problem is they made with that new improved quality, and the result is pretty clear: a worst product. Just put the new and old BT upgrade next to eachoters, ignore the detail quality difference (or just imagine if they redid the old upgrade 1 to 1 with just the new sculpting and moulding tech) and the result speaks for itself.

 sigismund22 wrote:
@(HN), you talk about the old edition a lot, but I don't remember having a dedicated plastic kit for BT before. All we had was pewter scouts and upgrade sprue for regular marines.

Except, yaknow, the aformantioned upgrade sprue was for all intend and pupose the crusader kit. It contained everything you needed to make them look like black Templars, from the tabard to the weapons.
AGAIN, why would you think that’s an argument? Do you think an army doesn’t have anything unless they have a unit box with their name on it? After you talked about kitbashing ealier?

 sigismund22 wrote:
Regarding the Black Templar Army Set, I don't think of any objective reason to belive this is a good "deal", for the content is pretty short. But some people here must understand that enjoyment can be found in others things than quantity of model or quantity of rules.

Again, nobody is saying you cannot enjoy things. You have to understand that your feeling toward something doesn’t have any bearing on its actual objective value.
Want to totally disregard the quantity of model or quality of rules? Sure, go ahead. But don’t try to pretend that’s a normal thing to do.

 sigismund22 wrote:
This limited edition was clearly using nostalgia and visual criteria as selling argument. Reasonable people (with high standards ) who only want "a good deal" should wait for the patrol box, which contains more models for a more affordable price

That’s another point where you seem to be confused, there’s two problem with that box:
First the quantity of stuff in it. Everyone can see the problem.
Second the quality of stuff in it. This part will be especially visible for any of the people that got here because of the obvious nostalgia bait that box was built upon (unless you are one of thos people that have second hand nostalgia of stuff they never really experience in the first place, and there’s A LOT of thos as the World of Warcraft Classic have shown us recently).
I’m one of thos guy that got the box purely for the nostalgia, and that’s why when I opened to book I couldn’t stop myself from noticing how dog gak it was, even before putting it next to the old book I had.
That’s the thing with nostalgia bait, it only works if you can match either the rose tainted glasse nostalgia people have or an objective comparison to the stuff that nostalgia refers too, and in both case they failed.
 sigismund22 wrote:
I work in the industry, not the same domain as GW but I kinda know how it works. People creating minis, lore and art can be passionate and aware of player expectations, but they are tied by marketting and business teams. If your boss tell you "you have one sprue, sized X,Y, to make a multipart crusader squad, we won't invest more for a subfaction", well, you have to deal with it, and they did a pretty good job, using compromises. At the end of the day, if the box sells well, the team that worked on it would probably be praised and affected to other projects, maybe able to negociate more budget for incomming releases. I'm pretty optimistic for the future, as it seems at least some of our requests are slowly taken into account, since Indomitus it's going better and better.

I work too “in an industry” (the video game industry to be precise) and I know too well how things goes, and that’s why I call call out gak when I see it.
No, “marketing and business teams” don’t give a gak about what you put in a book outside of the number of page, hell despite what a lot of people would like to believe they even rarely care about the balancing, and while they can indeed have the say on what a sprue should contain, that just doesn’t matter for us, the end customers, who decision it was to deliver us a subpar product.


JWBS wrote:
You just need to learn who to put on ignore. Many, many slimeballs, morons, etc. Becomes more tolerable with liberal use of ignore button (this thread in particular seems pretty packed with losers, I have strings of up to 4 replies in a row hidden due to ignores).

 NAVARRO wrote:
Some people dont like the product but buy it and then spend lengths of energy complaining an flooding the internet about how much they hate it.

Makes sense!

No point on debating since theres nothing to debate with that mind set, it was never a debate.

Cool story my dudes, thanks for “contributing” to the discussion.
 Platuan4th wrote:


Or people getting tired of a certain subset of posters gakking excess negativity on every thread.

It’s funy because usually these tired peoples don’t seem to be able to contribute in any meaningful way outside of flooding with petty pointless posts.


   
 
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