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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The British Army, so could be any old sh*t hole in the world.

I have been looking at this site for a few months now and I think there is a split.  Do you think that 40K is taken more seriously in the states?  I've played over here for a few years, although not in tournaments.  There is a huge group of vocal dakkites who really do seem to think GW are conspiring to make thier tournaments poor by writing bad rules.  In my experience this just isnt the case.  However all I can think of is that it really is play to win at almost all costs on your side of the pond.

This isn't a flame I have served alongside too many US servicemen in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan to be a "yank basher".


SERPENTE A LA PORPE 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






You haven't played in tournaments, but in your experience GW's poor rules writing hasn't been a problem in tournaments?

Sounds like you're just another non-tournament gamer who wants to run to defend GW's amatuerish rules writing (or 'suggestion writing' as someone so wonderfully reclassified it recently).

But to answer your question, no, I don't think it's a conspiracy. Never attribute anything to malice that can be explain by incompetence.

And I certainly don't think it's a US thing. I know I've heard and continue to hear plenty of stories about UK players getting bent out of shape because of Italian players who want to follow the rules as written in the British GTs. I know I'm generalizing, but the theme of every one of those stories is that the UK players want to follow GW's 'suggestions' and the Italian players want to follow the rules.


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

I play to play, but winning is fun Sadly, that's something I rarely do.

Anyway, IMO, the only reason GW runs and/or encourages tournaments is just to get vet players with "finished" armies to keep buying new stuff.

When I play in tournaments (never did a GT but did plenty of local ones) I just have a go with the flow attitude .. if my opponent is laid back, i'll play laid back also.. if they forget to move a unit and start shooting and realize too late, I'll let them move it because I make mistakes like that all the time and usually that favor is returned when I slip up later in the game.. if my opponent is being anal about the rules, I'll be the same way and keep the rulebook in my hand the whole time. Generally I just like to sit back, throw some dice and blow some stuff up. I do tourneys just to have a full day of gaming because I don't get to play often. However, being as it's a tournament, you gotta expect a lot of folks to be really competitive, in a tourney a bunch of people are there to win... if not, why have a tourney at all?

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

I play to play, and winning is part of play (so is painting and learning, by the way). If my play is interrupted by rules discrepancies (that cannot be resolved quickly), resulting in time away from the game to clarify what's going on, then my playtime is interrupted, and, therefore, my fun. This is regardless of whether I'm playing a league game or a 'friendly' game.

Guinness: for those who are men of the cloth and football fans, but not necessarily in that order.

I think the lesson here is the best way to enjoy GW's games is to not use any of their rules.--Crimson Devil 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

I think americans take there tournies more seriously, they also take the desvcrepancies in the rules more seriously. Either that or Dakka is not a good section of the american gaming population. most people complain about comp/balance/rules. or anything else they can. Over here I hear (in the UK) I hear less complaints.

However when my brother lived in boston a few years back he said that the american players were quite fun to play with and relaxed~( unlike some posters here on Dakka) which leaves me to believe that alot (not all) of the poster s on Dakka or similar forums tend to complain alot and just play to win. Which is fair enough as thats what tournies are for.

As for rules decrepancies GW says roll for it, Cmon Guys its just that simple and besides ITS ONLY A GAME.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Posted By the cabbage on 12/26/2006 3:19 AM

I have been looking at this site for a few months now and I think there is a split.  Do you think that 40K is taken more seriously in the states?  I've played over here for a few years, although not in tournaments.  There is a huge group of vocal dakkites who really do seem to think GW are conspiring to make thier tournaments poor by writing bad rules.  In my experience this just isnt the case.  However all I can think of is that it really is play to win at almost all costs on your side of the pond.

This isn't a flame I have served alongside too many US servicemen in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan to be a "yank basher".


I'd have to say yes. We take ours serious, and there is not alot of room for quibble when there are trophies on the line. My opinion, with the way that GW has bent and retooled thier game for the short run sale, and generaly trying to gain more of a market by trying to make thier rules easier for the average 10-15 year old. It brings alot of the rules questions in and tournament play is really affected. The happy medium is gone when you play a game based of generality. There are alot of rules lawyers that this game breeds, so its only natural to butt heads with these players that are just a little too smart for thier own good, and use said rules to thier advantage.

There are different types of players, alot of them that hate loosing, and use the game as an offshoot of thier life in having to kick scratch and fight a win, and then their are some where this is a game, with a little fun and no real pressure in it. when your playing a tournament, it can be brutal to fight it out all day only to lose by a few points, even if you've won a victory.

I say this from starting out as a hard core A!!h&^% who was all in it for the win and one day had an epiphany in the real reason for winning, losing, and playing. I paint, play, and have fun with the game, just for the sheer pleasure of having a hobby and playing a game or two for no pressures, rewards, or anything but the hell of it.

I don't like some of GW's plays as far as rules, changes without a lot of discussion or feedback, lack of playtesting or research besides by the chosen few who skew the results for the company /party line, or the inhearant lack of respect that the company has for its professed fan base. In the beginning, a tourny was a easy thing to pull off, but now that it has become as rabid an event as it is, it only fuels the issue of the rules even more then it really should.

If you ever get a chance to see some of the tards at our tournies, it might suprise you and answer the question for yourself.




At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Posted By beef on 12/26/2006 9:12 AM
 

As for rules decrepancies GW says roll for it, Cmon Guys its just that simple and besides ITS ONLY A GAME.



Actually, that's listed as their last resort. Their official stance is just do whatever the book says is legal. You aren't even supposed to dice it off until after you've consulted with their mail order department.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/flowchart.htm

 

 


"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Philadelphia, PA

It is the in the nature of competitive gaming for arguments to occur. You think GW tournaments are bad? Try WRG ancients where most of the players arguing over the rules are lawyers by profession.

Clear the battlefield and let me see
All the profit from our victory.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




I play to win, and I think deep down we all want to win when we put our models down on the table. This isnt a dominating facet of my personality, I still enjoy games when I am losing, and I play with friendly lists. Most of my armies were chosen from the weakest book of 40K/Fantasy so that I can relish each victory instead of expecting it. Being a rules lawyer has nothing to do with wanting to win or lose, it's a part of your personality that screams "Everyone should play by the same rules", "Dicing it off because you didn't know a rule isn't fair", and "The written rule is more important than your opinion".

And Ed, I love how the flow chart always goes to "Problem Solved!" after consulting GW direct services! This coming from people that said in subsequent rounds of combat that Bretonni knights were allowed to fight in the lance formation.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

Well, there are a few assumptions in some of the above posts that don't necessarily play out...

First, there's a difference between "playing to win" and "playing competitively". The people who complain that competitive players are too serious and too much "win at all costs" and therefore diminish their gaming experience don't seem to realize that... playing against a non-competitive player often diminishes the gaming experience of competitive players because the main thrust of their gaming is competition. "Serious" gaming is -- to many of the folks who partake of it -- only entertaining when matched with another serious gamer.

Second, Dakka shouldn't be treated as indicative of anything that exists in the real world. Dakka is overanalysis. Dakka is where we overanalyze everything from the rules to the metagame, and that's the fun of it for the participants. I mean, for all of the arguments over playing by the rules as written, it's not even established that it's possible to play a game of 40k purely by the rules as written; any discussion of the rules should best be considered pedantry, as while many of us understand what the rules say, I doubt any significant portion actually choose to play strictly by said rules. The rules are just the starting point of negotiation for an actual game.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






"Dakka is where we overanalyze everything from the rules to the metagame, and that's the fun of it for the participants."


Yep. I enjoy theoryhammer and I enjoy Warhammer. When playing Warhammer I don't worry too much about theoryhammer or the literal meanings of silly rules, similarly when I talk about theoryhammer on Dakka I don't bother with ephemeral concepts like 'the spirit of the game' or 'dicing it off' which add nothing to a discussion about what the rules as written literally say.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Posted By Lowinor on 12/26/2006 12:56 PM
Second, Dakka shouldn't be treated as indicative of anything that exists in the real world. Dakka is overanalysis. Dakka is where we overanalyze everything from the rules to the metagame, and that's the fun of it for the participants. I mean, for all of the arguments over playing by the rules as written, it's not even established that it's possible to play a game of 40k purely by the rules as written; any discussion of the rules should best be considered pedantry, as while many of us understand what the rules say, I doubt any significant portion actually choose to play strictly by said rules. The rules are just the starting point of negotiation for an actual game.


Posted By Keldrin on 12/26/2006 10:54 AM
Being a rules lawyer has nothing to do with wanting to win or lose, it's a part of your personality that screams "Everyone should play by the same rules", "Dicing it off because you didn't know a rule isn't fair", and "The written rule is more important than your opinion".

 

Posted By stecal on 12/26/2006 10:34 AM
It is the in the nature of competitive gaming for arguments to occur. You think GW tournaments are bad? Try WRG ancients where most of the players arguing over the rules are lawyers by profession.

 

Quoted for truth.  Good points, guys.

Tournament players are serious all over the world, and in all sorts of games.  GW games give people more fodder for discussion partially BECAUSE the rules are less clear, and partially because they are widely played. 

This doesn't mean that players from any given country are necessarily more serious than others, though there can be regional variations both in how the game is played and how it is talked about. 


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

Back in the late 90s I used to play a lot of Starcraft Broodwars on Battle.net.  I don't ever remember anyone accusing protoss who built lots of psi storm templar and no scouts as being not "fluffy" or zerg who exploited the zerg airforce as "only playing to win".  It wasn't considered "unsportsmanlike" to do your damnedest to obliterate your opponent.  If you built crappy units or sat around playing "sim base" then you got your ass kicked as you should.  There was no "playing for fun" vs "playing to win".

And if there were balance issues the blame was placed squarely on the shoulders of designers where it belonged.  When the mutalisk was found to be overpowered people expected Blizzard to fix it, not their opponents to refrain from using them.

It's strange how different 40k is.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 12/26/2006 11:28 PM

Back in the late 90s I used to play a lot of Starcraft Broodwars on Battle.net.  I don't ever remember anyone accusing protoss who built lots of psi storm templar and no scouts as being not "fluffy" or zerg who exploited the zerg airforce as "only playing to win".  It wasn't considered "unsportsmanlike" to do your damnedest to obliterate your opponent.  If you built crappy units or sat around playing "sim base" then you got your ass kicked as you should.  There was no "playing for fun" vs "playing to win".

And if there were balance issues the blame was placed squarely on the shoulders of designers where it belonged.  When the mutalisk was found to be overpowered people expected Blizzard to fix it, not their opponents to refrain from using them.

It's strange how different 40k is.


Actually, lots of people did and do make such complaints in computer games, including Starcraft on Battle.net.

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/

Eric Sirlin believes that whining about unfairness or "cheese" represents a failure of will and imagination, and that a solid game has no "cheap" or "cheesy" maneuvers or options.  He says that a good game will have such depth that there will always be counters to "cheesy" maneuvers or units.  WH & 40k may not be good games by his standards, but it's hard to hold tabletop wargames to quite the same standards as computer games, in which it is literally impossible to break the rules without hacking the software.

I saw a new player thread on the Privateer forums a while back; a competitive computer game player was trying to decide if he wanted to get into the game.  He was appalled at the randomness of not having set terrain maps with precisely defined distances and sizes of everything on the board.  He could not understand how the game could be considered a skill game or balanced if the board you played on wasn't a known and carefully engineered quantity.


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The British Army, so could be any old sh*t hole in the world.

Posted By mauleed on 12/26/2006 4:53 AM

You haven't played in tournaments, but in your experience GW's poor rules writing hasn't been a problem in tournaments?

Sounds like you're just another non-tournament gamer who wants to run to defend GW's amatuerish rules writing (or 'suggestion writing' as someone so wonderfully reclassified it recently).

I hope this comes out OK as I'm new to quoting on this site, Apologies my sentence construction wasn't tip top I meant something along the lines of my experience of the game hasn't been that rules loopholes make my enjoyment any less.  And I have no need to run to defend GW although I am broadly happy with their product.  I think many of the posters would do well to remember that GW is a business, not a group of people staying up late to entertain you (although that is their business).  And remember if it doesn't make money we dont get the game.

But to answer your question, no, I don't think it's a conspiracy. Never attribute anything to malice that can be explain by incompetence.

That wasn't my question.  My question was "do you think that 40K is taken more seriously in the states?"  Anything after that was to try to explain my thinking.

And I certainly don't think it's a US thing. I know I've heard and continue to hear plenty of stories about UK players getting bent out of shape because of Italian players who want to follow the rules as written in the British GTs. I know I'm generalizing, but the theme of every one of those stories is that the UK players want to follow GW's 'suggestions' and the Italian players want to follow the rules.

That is an interesting point, most of my club attend the UK GT's and I haven't heard that but I'll chat to them I suppose.

Edited because i'm cr*p at quoting




SERPENTE A LA PORPE 
   
Made in us
RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

That's a good article.

The point is that if a game becomes “no fun” at high levels of play, then it’s the game’s fault, not the player’s.  Unfortunately, a game becoming less fun because it’s poorly designed and you just losing because you’re a scrub kind of look alike.  You’ll have to play some top players and do some soul searching to decide which is which.  But if it really is the game’s fault, there are plenty of other games that are excellent at a high level of play.  For games that truly aren’t good at a high level, the only winning move is not to play.

I wonder which kind of game 40k is...

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Rocking the Suburbs, MA

I think chess is a fun game by his definition of it
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Chess is fun.

I happen to suck at it.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Ugh, typo fix away boys. Typo fix away.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Posted By malfred on 12/27/2006 8:56 AM

I happen to suck His Noodly Appendage for coke.  Now that's an addiction.

Fixed.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




think americans take there tournies more seriously,


No offense, but having seen the number of Iron warrior and seer council an dsome of the other armies coming out of the UK heats......thats questionable.

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




Da Southern New Hampshire!

Play to win. Not play to lose.
Winning is not the primary goal.
The primary goal is to have as much fun as possible, even if that means making stupid moves to have a good laugh.
By playing to win, that does not mean the move will compromise my victory much.
Its like squeezing as much fun and win as I can out of a game.

Its like a series of checks and balances.

If at first you don't succeed, you fail. 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

yes the Uk has plenty of Iron warriors and they mainly win the GTs. however they are not unbeatable a good player with a crap list like me can squeze a draw against them. Crap player with good or bad list will lose to them.

Its just here in the UK we stopped complaing about Cheesy list( we used to call them beardy) many years ago. Most people us these list, very few actaully know how to use them properly.

My bro came 3rd at the last tournie we went to and his list was so bad. His motto is paint what he likes and then tries to make a list with his models. the reason he came 3rd? he is an exceptionally great player. No matter how bad the list he can still scrape some sort of result with it most of the times.

R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

I play so that one day, after decapitating the heads of the defeated, I will be able to absorb the power of Mauleed from his glowing stump where his head once was and become "The One".

The can be only one, afterall.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Posted By beef on 12/27/2006 5:23 PM
Its just here in the UK we stopped complaing about Cheesy list( we used to call them beardy) many years ago. Most people us these list, very few actaully know how to use them properly.

It's a valid point that only a minority of players are actually skilled at using these lists well.  But it's not true that people in the UK don't complain about cheese.  I've read TWF.

Posted By beef on 12/27/2006 5:23 PM
My bro came 3rd at the last tournie we went to and his list was so bad. His motto is paint what he likes and then tries to make a list with his models. the reason he came 3rd? he is an exceptionally great player. No matter how bad the list he can still scrape some sort of result with it most of the times.

You have now made two statements in one post acknowledging the difference between being a skilled general and having the best list.  All other things being equal, do you really want to give the 2nd best player to win the Best General price purely because he chose a slightly stronger list than a better player did? 


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Which stump are you sucking on Hellfury?

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Posted By Hellfury on 12/27/2006 5:26 PM

The can be only one, afterall.

Yes.  And it is I.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




In your house, rummaging through your underwear drawer

Posted By bigchris1313 on 12/27/2006 7:20 PM
Posted By Hellfury on 12/27/2006 5:26 PM

The can be only one, afterall.

Yes.  And it is I.


Then I guess you're the Kurgan, Chris, 'cause Ed hasn't the cheekbones, I'm afraid.

 


"Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow"~Oscar Wilde 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Or the height. OH! Burn!

No hard feelings though, Ed.  At least you're prettier than Clancy Brown.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




The drinking halls of Fenris or South London as its sometimes called

@ Mannahnin you misunderstood my point about my brother, if the person came second I would not expect him to win the Best General prize purely because he chose a slightly stronger list than a better player did? If the better player had a weaker list and did not score more games wins and thus score lower points he should not get first place. Whoever score more VP should be the winner. Irrespective of army list. that should not be a reason to detract points.

In my brothers example if he used a cheese list he would have come first but He did not and scraped 3rd place with his crap list. However with comp he would have got points for his rubbish list and if that made him come 1st that would have been wrong. the guy who came first won fair and square as cheese list are not illegal so he should not be marked down for using it.

There are still some people who complain in the Uk.  Also in the Uk the ones who complain spend most of there time rules lawering, hanging around watching and commenting on other peoples games.  They hardly ever play as they are better at complaing then actually playing.

Like I have said before we are not a good cross section of the gaming community on these forums.  and the majority of players dont waste there time complaining or rules lawering.  they are in the hobby for the fun aspect or to pas time. 

Eventually we may come to relise we are not GW's target audience so they dont really care what we think about there rules or imbalance.  We are a minority here on this forum, the ones who talk about lack of balance are an even smaller minority in the bigger wider world.  When they relise this they might decide its futile to waste there breath on complaining hoping for change.  change will only come when GW is ready/bothered to do it.  Not cos some people whine about it on the internet.

Remember GW is getting new customers alot faster than losing them.  And complaing some aspect of 40k is broken yet Still playing it just seems like the addiction is to much for some people.


R.I.P Amy Winehouse


 
   
 
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