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Those artifact decks are not offered in the bundle so you are good.

The $50 pledge isn't too bad for you as you only spent $15 rather than $45. It's still a shame that you are paying the extra $15 compared to those who didn't add the extras in the original pledge manager.

Hopefully they remove the shipping charge completely.

Aeneades wrote:
Just a quick note, I am now not being charged the $40 postage fee when I go the checkout with the $50 pledge so looks like that has now been changed (it lists free complimentary shipping instead). However, some other people are still being charged.

My problem is a shipping fee mysteriously appearing in the pledge manager.

Their online store doesn't charge me shipping, but I'm not "completing my minecart" until they pull their head out their arse and fix this rediculous "offer".

I can't even get into the pledge manager to see what is going on there, they never re-opened mine so it is stuck with a delivery address I moved from in 2014.

I am not completing the mine cart either as I am hopeful they get this deal mess sorted, I just wanted to see if the FFP store was charging me like it was some people.

How much is the pledge manager trying to charge for shipping?

Aeneades wrote:
How much is the pledge manager trying to charge for shipping?

When I view my receipt it shows an outstanding balance of $65, specified as a shipping charge. Shipping was supposed to be free.

FAQ update has been posted. Can't copy from my phone but main highlights are that -

A) The extra pledge manager shipping is a bug. You won't have to pay it.

B) They are not making any changes or giving credit to those who purchased some of the items previously. If you feel "slighted" you should email them and they will review the situation.

Aeneades wrote:
FAQ update has been posted. Can't copy from my phone but main highlights are that -

A) The extra pledge manager shipping is a bug. You won't have to pay it.

B) They are not making any changes or giving credit to those who purchased some of the items previously. If you feel "slighted" you should email them and they will review the situation.

Yeah, not the best of responses, but the first addresses an obvious bug, and the second is at least a half-measure.

While I know that there has been a lot of screaming about the double-dipping, we're also not privy to how many people are actually affected. One thing I've learnt is that assuming a majority of commentators is representative of the majority of backers, is a flawed premise. While I don't think it's been handled well, it's also quite probable that it'll only affect a small portion of backers in a significantly negative way. Those being the loudest.

Don't get me wrong, I think this was bungled, and I think there have been some other significant missteps along the way. But I also don't think FFP are out to actively screw people. I think they got in over their heads, and are trying to finish as best they can, without ending up significantly in the hole (as opposed to a certain other game I can think of). It doesn't help the hysteria that some backers have unrealistic expectations, or significantly misinterpret things, and this being the internet, go from miffed to OUTRAGE! in the blink of an eye. But for me, the entertainment of the game itself will allow for some tolerance, and it's not like we can't see the light at the end of the tunnel (again, unlike a certain other game), even if the timeframe is still a bit shaky.

I don't think FFP are trying to milk people, they thought they were offering a bargain with the new topup system (which will also make packing much easier for them) and just didn't think about how those who already paid more will feel. I think they could have addressed it better in this update.

Some of the KS comments are pretty extreme and i have put it down to mostly inexperience at running a Kickstarter campaign (and this campaign took place just after Zombicide season 2 which hadn't yet been delivered so this was one of the biggest early kickstarters).

I don't expect anywhere near as many issues with their second Kickstarter.

My pledge manager shipping fee was removed.

However they just made an update that doesn't really fix the larger issue at hand, just invites a metric feth ton of email for them to go through.

They also seem to have missed the point. Their view is they already gave us a great deal with the Minecart pledge. That isn't in question. The issue people have is that their most eager supporters who gave them $45 in the pledge manager for the Turrets, Mutants and Tribals are now going to end up paying $40 more than people who have given them no money to work with these past 2 years, if we want to "complete our minecart".

That is the problem, and it seems to have gone right over their heads.

I agree that they missed what the main issue actually is (although a few vocal people are not happy about paying anything to complete the expansions), and I think the tone of the update has done more harm then good.

I have no problem paying for the additional content, I just want the same deal as everyone else, not be charged more because I decided to support them at the earliest opportunity.

Merijeek wrote:

 Forar wrote:

And just stop. Don't even bother with the "you're the cheerleaderist cheerleader that ever cheered".

followed by

 Forar wrote:
It's a problem, but it's solvable, and yet some are acting like FFP just murdered their parents before them and are about to spend 20 years (worth of posts) training to become Angry Kickstarter Batman.

Is impressively hypocritical.

Care to explain how?

One is recognizing my own bias (or the massive avalanche of bias I'm accused of on the KS Comments and BGG now and then...)

The other is recognizing that I think some people on the KS Comments are being utter gakheads about the matter.

C'mon Meri, how about more than a pithy one liner? Use your words and express yourself.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
However they just made an update that doesn't really fix the larger issue at hand, just invites a metric feth ton of email for them to go through.

Assuming that there wasn't a simple 'one-size-fits-all' answer to this, a metric fethton of email was always the likely outcome.

Though as Morgan noted, we have no idea how many people this affects. Given the number of Mine Cart backers who received $25-50+ in credit, I'm guessing a good number of the higher tiers probably spent some or all of their credit on those 'missing' upgrade figures, so I'm sure it's not a small number, but I doubt it's a majority either.

Regardless, I'm going to mail them and see what can be worked out. Y'know, actually find out what compromise might or might not exist, rather than just being so angry and cynical in the comments that some people on Kickstarter seem to delight in.

I sent a nice friendly e-mail to FFP regarding the situation. I really like the game (spent $190 in addons in original pledge manager, purchased Shogun level of the new KS and purchased web store exclusive items with expensive UK postage and import tax) but I don't like how they have handled this situation or that they have effectively down valued the $45 I gave them two years ago to $5 value today.

Aeneades wrote:
I sent a nice friendly e-mail to FFP regarding the situation. I really like the game (spent $190 in addons in original pledge manager, purchased Shogun level of the new KS and purchased web store exclusive items with expensive UK postage and import tax) but I don't like how they have handled this situation or that they have effectively down valued the $45 I gave them two years ago to $5 value today.

While I agree that this might have ended up being a whole lot of unnecessary frustration, this was recently posted on the KS Comments;

Klutz wrote:I just wanted to report that I got a reply to the "PLEDGE REVIEW AND ADJUSTMENT" email I sent. I sent the email at noon today on received a response at 8:20pm.

Since I had spent $10 on the Scafford Boss, they sent me a $5 PayPal invoice for the "Complete my Outlaw Pledge" option (saving me $10 off the normal $15 price).

They took the long and rocky way around the mountain, but in the end they made it right.

I hope this is applied evenly to everyone who desires to top off their pledge. I am not overlooking that they could've made this a lot easier on everyone involved, and for whatever reason chose not to (at least initially).

Of course, I'm sure someone will come forward and declare that the only reason FFP are willing to work with us is because of the racket they made on the comments, and that their wailing and gnashing of teeth were instrumental to getting this done.

I doubt it to be the case, but I don't expect to convince them otherwise. I also hope none of them backed the second SoB Kickstarter, because I'd hate for them to have wasted (WASTED!) their money and risked being SLAPPED IN THE FACE again by a company that some of them seem to think so little of.

With this little benefit of the doubt being given, you'd think we were talking about Palladium Books.

I have also received a response email, and long story short, I was able to top off my 2 Mine Carts and 1 Outlaw for $15 (having previously paid for 2 Ghosts, 2 Mutants, 2 Auto Turrets, and 1 Col Scafford = $100 already spent, vs the $115 it cost to upgrade all 3 at this time), but I'm assuming that would be dismissed as FFP simply taking care of one of their cheerleaders, so I waited until someone else came forward before I said anything.

Hopefully this can get all sorted out and ends up being another bump on the road.

I mean, until FFP does the next thing that is THE WORST THING EVER and faces are slapped and whatever.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
I have no problem paying for the additional content, I just want the same deal as everyone else, not be charged more because I decided to support them at the earliest opportunity.

This. It's pretty simple. Unfortunately I can't even find what the extras I ordered were. I found a $21 invoice for extras, but cannot find what they actually are. I guess I'll email them.

 Forar wrote:

Of course, I'm sure someone will come forward and declare that the only reason FFP are willing to work with us is because of the racket they made on the comments, and that their wailing and gnashing of teeth were instrumental to getting this done.

I doubt it to be the case, but I don't expect to convince them otherwise. I also hope none of them backed the second SoB Kickstarter, because I'd hate for them to have wasted (WASTED!) their money and risked being SLAPPED IN THE FACE again by a company that some of them seem to think so little of.

Clearly this is the case. I haven't followed the KS comments and have had my email dark for over a week, so haven't even caught up on this stuff until now really. Their update makes it clear that they had made a decision on charging a flat $50 (probably just to make the admin much easier) and thought they could just tell people who were unhappy to suck it up. The fact that they're "Reviewing" this to such an extent shows that having a huge backlash had an effect. I doubt it was a sudden change of heart that was completely unrelated to the sheer PR-stupidity of the choice or their comments catching fire as you seem to think.

 Forar wrote:

I mean, until FFP does the next thing that is THE WORST THING EVER and faces are slapped and whatever.

You're really overdoing the hyperbole. Maybe it's your response to people being d-heads in the KS comments, but we're a tad more reserved here. Fact is simply that as I said before, your overly-aggressive defence of every stupid move that the Frogs make is doing wonders to undermine your own credibility. You're veering into crazyman territory. It reminds me of videogame fanbois to be quite honest. Those guys who love Sony or Microsoft (formerly Nintendo and Sega) that anything their chosen company does is brilliant and won't hear a word said against them by dirty unbelievers. So please. Calm the feth down and just post rationally here. It's not making you any friends. As I also said before, I like you mate - but your posts in SoB threads make me shake my head.

It's tongue in cheek mockery aimed more at the hyperbole on BGG and Kickstarter, yes.

If I was aiming it at someone directly, I'd quote them and aim it at them directly.

People can express disappointment without making a comment section a complete clusterfeth, and some of those same voices have been quick to leap on any reason at all to complain and declare FFP worse than Satan. I'm sure Becki and Cartigan and a few others will be quick to point out how something else is Just The Worst soon enough.

That said, you are clearly reading more into this than is intended. To 'explain the joke', the hyperbole here is shared in mockery and *because I know this place to be saner*. Where have I leapt at anyone other than Meri, whom I have a... special relationship with over a good 3 years of shared misery in the Robotech Tactics threads.

I mean, for feths sake, I explained I wasn't happy with this outcome, I emailed them asking about it, they resolved it. That's... the system working as intended, but this comparison to video game fanboys makes it sound like I was cheering for a chance to throw money away over this gak.

Man, for all you're accusing me of here, I think I'm not the only one reading things into comments that aren't actually there.

This was a controversy, and it was one the Frogs created, and people *lost their fething minds*, and I mocked them for it, and lo it was resolved like 2 days later.

What more do you want?

I'm catching up with all this now. As an Outlaw backer, yeah, I'm annoyed. I guess I'm eating the $10 I'm out for buying Colonel Scafford last December (you know, when THEY TOLD US TO), but I'm more annoyed by the Derelict Ship. I paid $35 in the pledge manager. Now if I want to complete it (my one and only opportunity), it's another $15 + $18 = $33. $68 total for an expansion that will probably be, what, $50 MSRP? $30 something online? That....is not a good deal.

ubik2000 wrote:
I'm catching up with all this now. As an Outlaw backer, yeah, I'm annoyed. I guess I'm eating the $10 I'm out for buying Colonel Scafford last December (you know, when THEY TOLD US TO), but I'm more annoyed by the Derelict Ship. I page $35 in the pledge manager. Now if I want to complete it (my one and only opportunity), it's another $15 + $18 = $33. $68 total for an expansion that will probably be, what, $50 MSRP? $30 something online? That....is not a good deal.

If you contact them via Email, as instructed, you should be able to get the $10 paid for taken off the Outlaw Upgrade. As for the Derelict Ship, it'll probably be a $80 MSRP (similar to Trederra). Not a great deal, but not a complete ripoff either. And similar in pricing comparison to other upgrades that were advertised.

If you're REALLY annoyed, when you EMail FFP for your Outlaw discount, maybe you can organise to change it for something else, and get Derelict at retail later? During the initial Pledge Manager, I ordered two Doors packages, because I wanted 4 Gates (it was originally 6/2). When they changed it to 4/4, I asked them to change one Doors to Darkness (the new name) to something else, specifically blank card packs of a similar value. They had no problem doing that.

FFP have made several significant missteps, but I've found that they're fairly reasonable when you explain things calmly. I've not found them the evil bastards they're often accused of being.

It's worth a shot! Thanks. I'll report back on how it goes.

Reports are going out that Outlaws are beginning to ship, possibly as much as a week ago, but progress is being made.

No word on Mine Carts (nor was one expected, but mentioned for the sake of thoroughness), but we knew those would likely be months out yet anyway. Considering that Outlaws (at least by initial tier) made up around 2/3 of the backers, that'll probably keep them busy a while anyway.

A friend of mine is reporting his Wave 2 "Outlaw" package is on the way - 11 lbs., shipping via UPS.

I'm a "Minecart" backer, so I'll be waiting for...a while longer.

 Forar wrote:
It's tongue in cheek mockery aimed more at the hyperbole on BGG and Kickstarter, yes.
If I was aiming it at someone directly, I'd quote them and aim it at them directly.
People can express disappointment without making a comment section a complete clusterfeth, and some of those same voices have been quick to leap on any reason at all to complain and declare FFP worse than Satan. I'm sure Becki and Cartigan and a few others will be quick to point out how something else is Just The Worst soon enough.
That said, you are clearly reading more into this than is intended. To 'explain the joke', the hyperbole here is shared in mockery and *because I know this place to be saner*. Where have I leapt at anyone other than Meri, whom I have a... special relationship with over a good 3 years of shared misery in the Robotech Tactics threads.
I mean, for feths sake, I explained I wasn't happy with this outcome, I emailed them asking about it, they resolved it. That's... the system working as intended, but this comparison to video game fanboys makes it sound like I was cheering for a chance to throw money away over this gak.
Man, for all you're accusing me of here, I think I'm not the only one reading things into comments that aren't actually there.

I don't follow Kickstarter comments anymore, and have not for several years. Any Kickstarter comments. I find N&R threads here to be filled with too many stupid and unreasonable people, and KS comments are an order of magnitude worse. With this as the context, reading your posts here appeared to be... shall we say.. over the top in your enthusiastic defence.

This was a controversy, and it was one the Frogs created, and people *lost their fething minds*, and I mocked them for it, and lo it was resolved like 2 days later.
What more do you want?

I think it's fair to say that people losing their fething minds was what caused FFG to backpedal on charging us all an extra wad of cash. Their tone and choice of words in that update was pure arrogant dickishness, and they deserved the backlash. Turned out after a polite & pleasant email exchange that the stuff I bought as extras was also in the $50 pile as well, and now I have a much smaller PayPal invoice instead. What do I want from them? A bit of extra thought and more of an attempt to follow Wheaton's Law would do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
A friend of mine is reporting his Wave 2 "Outlaw" package is on the way - 11 lbs., shipping via UPS.

I'm a "Minecart" backer, so I'll be waiting for...a while longer.

We'll be waiting months longer. Despite "we only just missed the boat" platitudes, I won't expect my stuff until about September-October now, since that's how these things usually work.

Yikes!

I hope it isn't THAT much longer!

They contacted me about the "complete my Minecart" but after I gave them my Paypal info I've heard nothing further, nor received an invoice.

EDIT: Invoice was sitting in my spam folder, oops!

I imagine they're drowning in emails these days, but there's probably no harm in sending a reminder if it's been more than a couple of days.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yikes!

I hope it isn't THAT much longer!

The last update said this;

We have been receiving more and more of the expansion material arriving into our warehouse and it is looking great! Unfortunately, as often happens with manufacturing, we have hit some delays for a few of the products. We can only send out a Wave 2 package, once all of the contents needed are in the warehouse for packing. The good news is that we currently have all of the parts for Hombre, Prospector, Outlaw, and Deluxe Outlaw Level Pledges and have already begun assembling these packages.

Minecart Pledges (and some Outlaws that added expansions) won't be able to start shipping until we have all of the content in the warehouse. The manufacturing delays on some expansion materials have hit the Chinese New Year break in China, which is nearly a month long, starting late January and well into February. All companies are trying to get manufacturing done before Chinese New Year break, so we just could not get enough time in the factory's manufacturing schedule. We do not yet know how long it will take for them to complete manufacturing after they return from the break, but we will keep you updated as we find out more info. In the meantime, we have our hands full processing, packing, and shipping out all of the other pledges.

Without context, it's impossible to say. Optimist that I am, I'm quietly hoping for a Q2 delivery of Mine Carts. I wouldn't rule out Q3 entirely, but without them saying just how much is missing, who knows? If it's a ship container worth of stuff, yeah that'd be a mess. If it's just an expansion or two that would be feasible to air freight over without being oppressively expensive, maybe it won't end up as big a deal.

I highly doubt it's the latter, but the reality is probably somewhere between the extremes, and if they're fighting for a slot right after things get fired back up again (post holiday, maintenance, whatever), they (and we) might be entirely at the whims of said factory.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yikes!

I hope it isn't THAT much longer!

I'm assuming Azazelx is adding the Australia tax on to the delay. I'm hoping it's not that long, and that if Australian orders are being sent the long way, that they're sent first. Because even if FFP start shipping March, if it takes them until June to finish, and Australia are both sent last, and by slow boat, then September/October definitely isn't out of the question.

Regarding Wave 1, it left the FFP warehouse before November 27th 2014, but didn't clear customs until after February 13th 2015. That's a little over 10 weeks, then another two weeks for the last individual shipment to be sent out and received.

Hopefully, it'll be handled differently this time, but I have slightly more optimism regarding FFP than Azazelx does. But not that much optimism. The desire to get the first packages out into the wild (ie, to Americans), will probably trump the concept of not screwing over Australian backers again by spending the first few days preparing those for early departure. Because it's almost a certainty FFP will want to save money by ocean-shipping again.

Isn't CNY 'only' a week off for most people in China?

I know the 'official' time period for it is just over 3 weeks, I think, but I also don't think everyone gets a month off for it.

It doesn't seem as if CNY is causing this huge delay - production of the key components must have already been delayed..

 Alpharius wrote:
Isn't CNY 'only' a week off for most people in China?

I know the 'official' time period for it is just over 3 weeks, I think, but I also don't think everyone gets a month off for it.

It doesn't seem as if CNY is causing this huge delay - production of the key components must have already been delayed..

It depends on the location of the factory, and the kind of product.

For the first, if a factory is a significant distance from residential, it tends to increase the downtime, as they need to factor in travel time. When you otherwise live at the factory, and need to travel 3-5 days to get home (remembering that civilian transport options in most parts of China isn't great), giving someone a week off, doesn't do anything.

For the second, given that most factories run 24/7 for most of the year, this downtime is also used for significant overhauls and other major maintenance that taking a machine offline during the year isn't easily done for. So factories like plastics and steel producers, I can easily see spending that amount of time, so that you don't have any downtime during regular production.

Not saying that's always the case, but I can see that being a reasonable timeframe.

EDIT : There's also one additional factor. When a company comes back from break, there's also a realistic possibility that they've got rush jobs from people willing to pay a premium. and that can have an impact on completion times for jobs that have already been timeslotted and paid for. Not all manufacturers are ethical about that kind of thing, either. And instead of admitting that, they'd just add that to the "closedown time".

Fair enough, I guess!

Having spent a fair amount of time in China in the industrial zones, I never saw 'one month' of downtime though.

But I also wasn't 'rural' and/or 'residential', as you note.

 Alpharius wrote:
Having spent a fair amount of time in China in the industrial zones, I never saw 'one month' of downtime though.

Details! Details!

Found an interesting article about CNY and manufacturing: http://www.thesourcingblog.com/effects-of-the-chinese-new-year-on-manufacturing-part-1/

So, any of our Outlaws receive their stuff?

Wave 2 shipping has been underway for somewhere around a month, hopefully plenty of people are receiving their stuff in the weeks to come, and fingers crossed that the outstanding minecart stuff lands in their laps (and thus, ours) soon!