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Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

it is not that you cannot play classic BT with normal terrain, but that you cannot play without hex as default mode

and for lot of people who came to wargaming after the hex-boards were the shiny new thing, they see it more as a boardgame instead of a wargame, were Alpha Strike helps them out

and that it takes the same time as a normal game but with so much more stuff on the table is the point of the game

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I would say both scratch some itches, just different ones. Both are perfectly playable games, but each one has different design goals.

I prefer it that way, TBH.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 07:33:59


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





aphyon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:I imagine too that with how stagnant the fanbase/community became (seems the majority of BT players have been playing it for decades, not a lot of churn or turnover, no proper "factions" with distinct ranges to collect, etc) over time players must have amassed very large mech collections that they would want to put on the table in larger numbers to get better use of them.


That is not true at all. CBT players are incredibly loyal to their factions and talk GAK to each other about it all the time. as much if not more so than 40K. in fact with the field manuals you can play specific military units within specific factions. there are also very specific units (mechs, vehicles, weapon loadouts, combat tactics etc..) tied to each faction once you get into the lore.

You will never see a Drac piloting a templar. the davions simply would not allow it, and a combine player would not demean themselves by using something they view with such disdain.

When we get new players into the game (which we do quite often) we always encourage them to choose a faction first for both clans and inner sphere and then that directs what minis they need in their collection.



untrue, salvage happens. in fact there's nothing like painting up a Men Shen in Davion Guards colours

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA


but that you cannot play without hex as default mode


You absolutely can though, It is right there in the main rule book. of course a copy of heavy metal pro allowing you to print out the sheets in inch/3d terrain rules automatically instead of having to translate it yourself does help.





Well if you want to run a scenario where the davions hunt you down without mercy to either reclaim or destroy their house mech ....

Doesn't change the fact the glorious soldiers of the draconis combine would not diminish their honor by riding in an "inferior" mech.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 09:36:44




GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
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Denver

I mean I doubt many in the 3025 era wanted to diminish their honor by piloting a stock Charger but sometimes if you have to choose between dishonor and Dispossessed...

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Yeah, the old books weren't quite so picky about that.
   
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

aphyon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:I imagine too that with how stagnant the fanbase/community became (seems the majority of BT players have been playing it for decades, not a lot of churn or turnover, no proper "factions" with distinct ranges to collect, etc) over time players must have amassed very large mech collections that they would want to put on the table in larger numbers to get better use of them.


That is not true at all. CBT players are incredibly loyal to their factions and talk GAK to each other about it all the time. as much if not more so than 40K. in fact with the field manuals you can play specific military units within specific factions. there are also very specific units (mechs, vehicles, weapon loadouts, combat tactics etc..) tied to each faction once you get into the lore.

You will never see a Drac piloting a templar. the davions simply would not allow it, and a combine player would not demean themselves by using something they view with such disdain.

When we get new players into the game (which we do quite often) we always encourage them to choose a faction first for both clans and inner sphere and then that directs what minis they need in their collection.





This is missing the point entirely. The factions only exist on paper and in your imagination. For the most part everyone uses the same minis, unlike most other games where each faction has its own specific model range. In BT faction specific mechs are a minority and 80% (or more) of them are shared across multiple factions. The closest you get to "faction specific" would be the divide between Clans and Inner Sphere, and to a lesser extent Word of Blake.

As a result, veteran players have very large mech collections, the majority of which can be used to form a very large force for play in Alpha Strike, regardless of whatever arbitrary color scheme or faction decal they might be covered in.



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Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I understand what Alpha Strike is trying to do, but it's just too generic and abstract. Battletech is great for small sub-lance patrol skirmishes, but if I want to play a battle where each side has a pair of lances and have it take the time and focus of a traditional minis game, I just unashamedly go outside of the Battletech IP completely and play something like Mech Attack.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/09/24 01:19:10




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Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I understand what Alpha Strike is trying to do, but it's just too generic and abstract. Battletech is great for small sub-lance patrol skirmishes, but if I want to play a battle where each side has a pair of lances and have it take the time and focus of a traditional minis game, I just unashamedly go outside of the Battletech IP completely and play something like Mech Attack.



I think that was my point when i said it looses the detail and immersion when you basically remove entire deep parts of the game like pilot skill interactions and such.


As for faction mechs. the same chassi can be used by various houses but the weapon loadouts differ greatly and there are often coresponding minis to represent this. the davion RAC variants of say the rifleman looks completely different than the ones used by other house. both are technically rifleman class mechs, but factionalized.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





aphyon wrote:


Doesn't change the fact the glorious soldiers of the draconis combine would not diminish their honor by riding in an "inferior" mech.





.... if the dracs won't ride inferior mechs, explain the 10K Panther?


... and do you still use heavy metal pro!? wow..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 10:48:13


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

BrianDavion wrote:
aphyon wrote:


Doesn't change the fact the glorious soldiers of the draconis combine would not diminish their honor by riding in an "inferior" mech.





.... if the dracs won't ride inferior mechs, explain the 10K Panther?


... and do you still use heavy metal pro!? wow..



It's a panther, no different than a steiner with a commando

And yes why would i not use heavy metal pro. it is a great program. Any mech not in the database is easy to build with the program. i have made record sheets for many of the stock new designs straight out of the TROs.



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Trying to bring dishonor to the Panther? Shameful display!

   
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Any ideas on what would give Alpha Strike a "more battletech" feel? I like the idea of a larger scale game with more mechs on the field.

Played several BT games years ago with 12 mechs on a side and that was shall we say a major time investment. Fun though, but dont exactly have that kind of free time these days...
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Not reducing all weaponry to a single firepower value would be a good start.

Abstracting weaponry is fine, but this is going too far.

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Made in ca
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aphyon wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
aphyon wrote:


Doesn't change the fact the glorious soldiers of the draconis combine would not diminish their honor by riding in an "inferior" mech.





.... if the dracs won't ride inferior mechs, explain the 10K Panther?


... and do you still use heavy metal pro!? wow..



It's a panther, no different than a steiner with a commando

And yes why would i not use heavy metal pro. it is a great program. Any mech not in the database is easy to build with the program. i have made record sheets for many of the stock new designs straight out of the TROs.


ohh HMpro's just an ooold program, last I ehard it'd not been upgraded in YEARS.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

I think the only things it is missing are some of the 3100+ weapons like the TSEMP and plasma rifles. otherwise it has options for everything else including streak LRMS, MMLs, ATMs, hardended armor, reflective armor, NOVA CREWS, ER pulse lasers etc....


Like the game itself it has not been updated in years because it really does not need it.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

SSW is in active development. I'll go with them.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

Well i have hard copies of pro, aero, vee and light (original discs). So it isn't like i need another source.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SSW is in active development. I'll go with them.


Ditto that said not shaming anyone for using HMpro, just SUPRISED it's still in use is all

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 21:10:03


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Manchu wrote:
Getting started is theoretically easy.

You just need to buy a copy of the A Game of Armored Combat box. That box alone has years of gaming in it. If you want to go the next step, also buy the Clan Invasion box set. At that point, you have enough BattleTech to play for the rest of your life ... but rest assured, you’ll probably move on to pick up some additional Lance/Star packs.

It's actually even easier than that.

Pick up the Battlemech Manual for just the stompy goodness, or Total Warfare book for general work. Pick up a few minis from Ironwind, capture a set on sale, or use a marker to point an arrow on poker chips, then see if anyone close by is playing and show up.

I'm still trying to get a copy of A Game of Armored Combat, more for the miniatures than the ruleset. I'd rather use the Manual or TW for the rules, anyway.

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TBH the rulebook that comes with AGoAC is better for beginners than the Manual.

   
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 Manchu wrote:
TBH the rulebook that comes with AGoAC is better for beginners than the Manual.


agreed in that it's simple and just covers the basics. you don't need "post 3025 tech" for beginners games.

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Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Manchu wrote:
TBH the rulebook that comes with AGoAC is better for beginners than the Manual.

But the Manual is more available, and we do not know what a person can handle until we provide the opportunity.

"Need" indicates a necessity. AGAOC is not needed to play Battletech. It helps, but it is not needed.

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 Nurglitch wrote:
It's interesting to see how rules like Alpha Strike tend to be the result of attempting to make BattleTech more playable.


Some folks (even the company perhaps) may market it that way, but that description of intent does not describe the actual roots or best use of Alpha Strike. Alpha Strike is simply a modifcation of Battleforce, a companion BT game only 3 years younger than Battletech iteself. Battleforce is a game designed to more abstractly simulate large engagements. Battleforce was originally a separate game played with chits (though half-size miniatures were produced) but the rules were later included in the "Strategic Operations" book along with a "Quick Strike" (not to be confused with a streamlined version of CBT by the same name) guide on how to play Battleforce with miniatures.

Some people look at Alpha strike as just a faster play version of Battletech and that is entirely understandable. However, playing it that way -with the same number of miniatures as a standard battletech game- is a pretty bland and uninspiring experience. Alpha Strike shines as a way to more abstractly play larger scale engagements, where the strategy and tactics revolve not around the minutiae of individual mech stats, but on entire units of mechs and combined arms.

For a Battletech-like experience with the same number of units and a faster play time I frequently recommend the indie ruleset "Mech Attack". However it is not an official product and Battletech fans tend to like the level of detail it has so it's certainly not for everyone.

petrov27 wrote:
Any ideas on what would give Alpha Strike a "more battletech" feel? I like the idea of a larger scale game with more mechs on the field.

Played several BT games years ago with 12 mechs on a side and that was shall we say a major time investment. Fun though, but dont exactly have that kind of free time these days...

I think you're coming up against the game designer intent of both game systems. Alpha Strike isn't designed to have a "Battletech feel" and Battletech isn't designed for 12-units-per-side battles.

Trying to give Alpha Strike a Battletech feel is probably an exercise in futility. You'd be better off streamlining the BT rules, limiting tech level (do they still use that system?) or using an alternative ruleset.

You can certainly play BT with 12 mechs per side, but unless you have extremely experienced players it's going to take a long time. The Battletech rules simply aren't designed for it. They're designed for a lance or two per side. If you don't believe me, look at the number of mechs contained in most official battle tech scenarios.

Alpha Strike on the other hand is designed for a dozen or more miniatures at a side, but as mentioned above, it's a game specifically designed for making decisions at a "higher" level of command. You simply won't get a weapon-stat-intensive, damage-bubble-bonanza, heat-tracking-festivus, tech-crunch, Battletech experience out of Alpha Strike. That's not a problem unless you're wanting to Alpha Strike to do something it wasn't designed to do.

This conflict between game intent and the scaling desires of players is not just a BT thing. Look at how Bogged down 40k got when a small skirmish ruleset (Rogue trader) was expanded to platoon level (2nd edition 40k) because players wanted to fight bigger battles. Then a few editions later -when the rules had been streamlined and then ballooned again- they wanted to increase the game to Battalion level and instead of a ruleset properly designed for large engagements (maybe a mod of epic 40k would have worked..) they simply produced the day-to-play novelty/monstrosity that was "Apocalypse".

The advantage with Battletech is that the individual rulesets are fairly well optimized for the size of engagements they are designed for, even if that doesn't always satisfy players desires for specific ratios of detail, game size and speed of play.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 17:26:07


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 Charistoph wrote:
"Need" indicates a necessity.
No ‘need’ for pedantry.

It’s a good point however that the Manual can be easier to find right now so if you want to get started and can’t find the AGoAC box you could get the Manual and some minis from IWM or some 3D printed ones off Etsy. Nonetheless, given the choice, I think the box is definitely the way to go.

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

You could also buy a PDF version.

   
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Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Manchu wrote:
It’s a good point however that the Manual can be easier to find right now so if you want to get started and can’t find the AGoAC box you could get the Manual and some minis from IWM or some 3D printed ones off Etsy. Nonetheless, given the choice, I think the box is definitely the way to go.


In general, I'm in agreement that AGAOC is best to start off with IF you can get your hands on it. However, the ruleset that comes with is a bit limited, especially if your local group plays up to a Standard with what is in Total Warfare and the Tech Manual.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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 Charistoph wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
It’s a good point however that the Manual can be easier to find right now so if you want to get started and can’t find the AGoAC box you could get the Manual and some minis from IWM or some 3D printed ones off Etsy. Nonetheless, given the choice, I think the box is definitely the way to go.


In general, I'm in agreement that AGAOC is best to start off with IF you can get your hands on it. However, the ruleset that comes with is a bit limited, especially if your local group plays up to a Standard with what is in Total Warfare and the Tech Manual.


as someone whose been playing Battletech since the 90s, if I was playing with a new player I would only use the 3025 "starter box" tech. less weapons to confuse them with and the single heat sinks will train good heat management skills

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

It's a great place to start. I've bought 5 of them of the years.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've bought 5 of them of the years.
Only 3 for me lol

   
 
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