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 ph34r wrote:
The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?


Because against Armour of Contempt it's AP-1. Which is bad. Really bad for the points you pay. It's so bad it only kills .5 more marines than the Basilisk at that point.
   
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Jarms48 wrote:
 ph34r wrote:
The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?


Because against Armour of Contempt it's AP-1. Which is bad. Really bad for the points you pay. It's so bad it only kills .5 more marines than the Basilisk at that point.

Would this be an argument for taking Basilisks to save a few points if they are now so close?

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Manticore's value has dropped a lot in my eyes because of the durability of power armor in cover is a serious issue. Marines have a 3+ against ap 2 on the first turn now and giving up a command point or a warlord trait to kill 1-2 marines that are in cover isn't worth it. Against marine vehicles we are wounding on 3's and they are saving on 4's, against other popular armies who have a built in -1 to hit like Hareliquinns or things like the Tyranids venomthropes making it harder to even hit.

   
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 Salted Diamond wrote:
Would this be an argument for taking Basilisks to save a few points if they are now so close?


It's definitely worth trying. Against non-AoC armies the Manticore is still better, so it really depends on what you see in your local meta.

- Lots of AoC, try 2 Basilisks and use the extra 60 points for another infantry squad or something.
- Little or no AoC, keep the Manticores.
   
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What a strange place Guard are in right now; what a weird meta. Feel like we actually got a nerf, comparatively, overall. We'll see how it shakes out, no doubt there's more unintended consequences of these sweeping changes still to be discovered, but one thing's for sure, they should of called it 'Glass Hammer of the Emperor'.

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Has anyone considered doing pull payload Wyverns? With the 6 to wound plus reroll wounds you're bound to do a big pill of wounds on any target regardless of toughness. couple that with Cadian tank orders and you could realistically see causing 20 wounds on something.

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 generalchaos34 wrote:
Has anyone considered doing pull payload Wyverns? With the 6 to wound plus reroll wounds you're bound to do a big pill of wounds on any target regardless of toughness. couple that with Cadian tank orders and you could realistically see causing 20 wounds on something.
Doesn't Full Payload just maximize random damage rolls? Which the Wyvern doesn't have.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 generalchaos34 wrote:
Has anyone considered doing pull payload Wyverns? With the 6 to wound plus reroll wounds you're bound to do a big pill of wounds on any target regardless of toughness. couple that with Cadian tank orders and you could realistically see causing 20 wounds on something.
Doesn't Full Payload just maximize random damage rolls? Which the Wyvern doesn't have.


whoooooops! For some reason my brain thought it was maximum shots, not damage.

So that would mean that wyverns could still do some damage at least if you had them with gunners or catachan at least.

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Well, for the wyvern you can try "well stocked magasines" : with 4D6 you are almost garanteed to have one or two weak attack dice to reroll. Assuming you did not take Catachan or the gunnery experts special trait. For example, if you play Cadian to take advantage of the loads of special rules from codex and supplements, well, one or two tank ace Wyverns would be an interesting choice. Space marines behind ruins, not in cover would still save on 3+, the high number of shots, the to hit giving auto-wounds then STR:4 with rerolls yields a fair amount of saves.

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 Ravajaxe wrote:
Well, for the wyvern you can try "well stocked magasines" : with 4D6 you are almost garanteed to have one or two weak attack dice to reroll. Assuming you did not take Catachan or the gunnery experts special trait. For example, if you play Cadian to take advantage of the loads of special rules from codex and supplements, well, one or two tank ace Wyverns would be an interesting choice. Space marines behind ruins, not in cover would still save on 3+, the high number of shots, the to hit giving auto-wounds then STR:4 with rerolls yields a fair amount of saves.


Yes but then you run the numbers for average number of wounds and dead marines, look at the cost of your unit and the cost of the space marines you have killed, and realise why guard have the lowest win rate. Currently 40k with very short distances, high moves, wide choice of units, and relatively easy missions, revolves a lot around damage output for any given points.

Lets be really generous, 4D6, bunch of rules, 8 hits. 1 auto wounds. So that is an average of 6.25 wounds. Marines in cover take on average 1 wound. Marines in open 2 wounds. You cost 135 points. A marine costs 18. For comparison against IG infantry you are getting 3.6 wounds or 4.8 at 5 points each. So 18 or 24 points against its favoured prey.

   
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Against Space Marines, rounding down:

Wyvern: 4d6 shots with 1 reroll: 15 shots, 7 hits, 1 auto wound and 4 regular wounds, versus 3+, that's only 1-2 wound going through (0-1 in cover). Maybe 1 dead marine

3x Heavy Weapons Teams with Mortars: 9d6 shots averages to around 30 shots, 15 hits, 2 Auto Wounds plus 6 regular Wounds = 2-3 failed saves out of cover (1 in cover). 1 dead marine

Manticore: 2d6 shots with a reroll: 8 shots, 4 hits, 1 Auto wound plus 2 Wounds, 1 failed save out of cover (and in cover), so 1 dead marine

Basilisk: best of 2d6 with 1 reroll: 5 shots, 2 hits, two Wounds, 1 failed save in cover, 1-2 out of cover, 1-2 dead Marines

So, none of our indirect fire options are all that great at killing marines at the moment, even with our Auto wound buff and evasion of the indirect fire nerf.


   
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 generalchaos34 wrote:

whoooooops! For some reason my brain thought it was maximum shots, not damage.

So that would mean that wyverns could still do some damage at least if you had them with gunners or catachan at least.


Wyverns get 14 shots on average, with Gunnery Experts that goes up to about 15. You're only going to get 3 autowounds. That's 1 wound off a marine. Then you get 5 regular hits, then you'll only score an extra 3.75 wounds. Now you've only killed 1 marine.

Sadly the Wyvern isn't that great, and the units it was good against for example Orks are T5 now. Which massively reduced its effectiveness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/27 22:32:24


 
   
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Several Guard characters are now being discontinued, including Raine from the Black Library.
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

Well, this guy on youtube says he saw a picture and that we are getting:

- The "Rogal Dorn" battle tank between Leman Russ and Baneblade that we had heard about
- Plastic Kasrkin, which we had also already heard about
- Redone heavy weapon squads? No idea why that needed to happen.
- Redone armored sentinels? Again, no idea why that needed to be a release
- Attillan rough riders, personally I had thought they would drop the hun/mongolian angle but seems like nope, it's staying/back
- New Creed model, that is, Apollino (?) Creed, Creed's daughter
- New Lord Commissar, with power fist and book

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIWlYs5e8Sk

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If it's 'no models, no rules' then there could be only a couple of regiments in the codex!

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Great, so they are doing essentially what I expected. Forcing Guard back to MSU gameplay. Here's a big tank, here's a new commissar, and here are new HWTs. And a new Sentinel. Go forth to victory and last place in every tournament. Is 10th here yet?
   
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 ph34r wrote:

- The "Rogal Dorn" battle tank between Leman Russ and Baneblade that we had heard about


Sounds like a perfect count-as for my Macharius BT.
Perhaps finally I can field the model without feeling like I'm removing 200 points from my army.

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Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?

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 Ravajaxe wrote:
Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?
Might be hyperbole. On the other hand...

It's pretty comparable to a Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon and hull Heavy Bolter, at 150 points. So maybe not 200 points overcosted, but definitely ridiculously overpriced.

Hell, it's even less durable to AP0 weapons than a Leman Russ! Not quite twice as many wounds, but takes twice as much damage.

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If the rumor of it being T9 and capable of Baneblade levels of shooting, then I'd say 310 is underpriced. However, just to be honest, that was a rumor from a youtuber who somehow found it's way into my suggested videos, and seemed....too far fetched to be anything other than an extremely early leak.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the rumor of it being T9 and capable of Baneblade levels of shooting, then I'd say 310 is underpriced. However, just to be honest, that was a rumor from a youtuber who somehow found it's way into my suggested videos, and seemed....too far fetched to be anything other than an extremely early leak.
I'm talking about the current statline-which is 310 points of fail.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the rumor of it being T9 and capable of Baneblade levels of shooting, then I'd say 310 is underpriced. However, just to be honest, that was a rumor from a youtuber who somehow found it's way into my suggested videos, and seemed....too far fetched to be anything other than an extremely early leak.
I'm talking about the current statline-which is 310 points of fail.


Oh, apologies. I thought we were talking about the new rumored tank. I got the names mixed up.
   
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 Ravajaxe wrote:
Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?


I was being a tad dramatic, but it essentially costs like 2 LR BT's and is worse in pretty much every way.

It's easily overpriced by at least 100 points though. Probably more.

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I'm taking Krieg to a tournament this weekend and I've included a Malcador infernus as a suicidal distraction.

Gone for 3 Punisher TC's for weight of dice vs invulns. Also power armour can't reduce my AP if it's 0

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 BlackoCatto wrote:
Several Guard characters are now being discontinued, including Raine from the Black Library.


Creed is rumoured to be returning, I also doubt Yarrick would disappear. The rest are likely to move to Legends


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ravajaxe wrote:
Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?


If the standard Russ is actually worth 125 points now, after heavily comparing it to the Dunecrawler. That means a Macharius should be 250 points tops, likely 210 like a Kill Rig. Seeing as 2 Russes gives you 24 T8 2+ saves compared to 22 T8 3+ saves. The 4D6 battle cannon shots compared to 2D6 Macharius battle cannon shots, even if the Macharius one is D6 damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 08:18:39


 
   
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Simply Warhammer YouTube video said krieg is rumored to be getting a 10th ed codex. No clue on the reliability (same guy who told us about the russ turret being able to fire out of melee)
   
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The Mordian Glory posted a vid about how he's literally seen pictures of the new kits, and the Sentinel is smaller (?) and that the Creed model doesn't look like creed, might not be Creed.

He also states the HWT is no longer two men per model, it's a single guy, so down to 1 wound?
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Mordian Glory posted a vid about how he's literally seen pictures of the new kits, and the Sentinel is smaller (?) and that the Creed model doesn't look like creed, might not be Creed.

He also states the HWT is no longer two men per model, it's a single guy, so down to 1 wound?

Oh man that would suck, that would mean so many heavy weapons to rebase and would also hint that we may be losing a lot of them. Unless we're going back to the really old heavy weapon team style of the single gun w/gunner and a seperate loader model, in which case Im well ahead of the game with all the old metal heavy weapon teams I have. Maybe its a redone box to give you female heads and a new weapon like a heavy stubber or multilaser. That or we could see IG adopting man portable heavy weapons similar to some of the Necromunda gangs have where theyre smaller and shorter.

Attilan rough riders makes sense if they want a regiment agnostic choice, but that seems really odd when we saw DKOK riders in the ork codex. FW models havent shown up in new art for a while. Perhaps it can make attilans or DKoK, although that seems like itd be tricky to do in a single box. I feel like the attilans are a red herring by GW to catch leakers but could be wrong.

Some of these leaks just sound really odd. The sentinel for example while a bit annoying to build seems an odd choice for a redo, same for the heavy weapons. I cant help but wonder if some of these are fake. Mordian knows his guard so its extremely unlikely he misidentified old models as new ones or something like that.

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I will admit, his video is a lot of "Guys I swear I saw this, but I can't show it." Same with Auspex Tactics' vid.

I feel like this is a calculated release/leak by GW, because for some reason all the content creators are under a rather obvious NDA.
   
 
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