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I recently got a packet of flying bases for the new Aeronautica game from Forgeworld. On the bottom of the flying stands is "Made in China"  is this a sign of things to come?

 

On a side note about Aeronautica - paying $100 Australian for 14 pages of rules and some scenarios (the rest being glossy colour plates of aircraft) somehow I feel a bit ripped off.  It could have easily been put in 1-2  issues of White Dwarf, but then people would complain because the magazine lacked ad content.

I know the paper product is done in china due to the low cost of printing there
I could see things such as bases etc that are pretty generic being done to cut costs

Posted By Jezza on 01/26/2007 9:34 PM
On a side note about Aeronautica - paying $100 Australian for 14 pages of rules and some scenarios (the rest being glossy colour plates of aircraft) somehow I feel a bit ripped off.  It could have easily been put in 1-2  issues of White Dwarf, but then people would complain because the magazine lacked ad content.

  Plenty of free game rules over a www.specialist-games.com. 

Posted By Jezza on 01/26/2007 9:34 PM

I recently got a packet of flying bases for the new Aeronautica game from Forgeworld. On the bottom of the flying stands is "Made in China"  is this a sign of things to come?

 

On a side note about Aeronautica - paying $100 Australian for 14 pages of rules and some scenarios (the rest being glossy colour plates of aircraft) somehow I feel a bit ripped off.  It could have easily been put in 1-2  issues of White Dwarf, but then people would complain because the magazine lacked ad content.

Nobody forced you to buy it; its contents breakdown were all over the net, you should have done your research. People who MUST have every game and every army GW/FW produce and then complain about the price make no sense.

I noticed you didn't answer the question.

Wait, I didn't either. Crap.

Posted By Jezza on 01/26/2007 9:34 PM

I recently got a packet of flying bases for the new Aeronautica game from Forgeworld. On the bottom of the flying stands is "Made in China"  is this a sign of things to come?

If it were, GW would go down faster than a $5 hook.... I better stop there.

Seriously though, sending models to China to be mass produced would probably be the death knell of GW.  The quality would be atrocious; there would be no detail; and forget quality control.

-Jmz

If you notice on the bases, it says sabertooth games or some such. Just like the GW clicky base LOTR figs did. I imagine theyre using the same facilities to make them.

So I dont think that GW is moving their production into china....yet.

Next month maybe.

Posted By IGfan on 01/27/2007 1:46 AM

Nobody forced you to buy it; its contents breakdown were all over the net, you should have done your research. People who MUST have every game and every army GW/FW produce and then complain about the price make no sense.

Sorry IGfan my crystal ball wasn't working the day I preordered it, and the other FW books I have are excellent and I only have one 40k army, I like the fluff in the books but even that was lacking content and depth, it was mediocre at best. 

Oh well back to Infinity, Flames of War and Warmachine.

Posted By Jmznudd on 01/27/2007 10:45 AM

Posted By Jezza on 01/26/2007 9:34 PM

I recently got a packet of flying bases for the new Aeronautica game from Forgeworld. On the bottom of the flying stands is "Made in China"  is this a sign of things to come?

If it were, GW would go down faster than a $5 hook.... I better stop there.

Seriously though, sending models to China to be mass produced would probably be the death knell of GW.  The quality would be atrocious; there would be no detail; and forget quality control.

-Jmz

Tell that to the chinamen that made your star wars figures, or your Xbox 360. Perhaps that's not the best example...  

Chinese production of GW minis could work, but would probably never happen unless they (GW) were bought up.

no one forced you to buy aeronatualica or whatever it's called.

Posted By Jester on 01/27/2007 7:13 PM

Posted By Jmznudd on 01/27/2007 10:45 AM

Posted By Jezza on 01/26/2007 9:34 PM

I recently got a packet of flying bases for the new Aeronautica game from Forgeworld. On the bottom of the flying stands is "Made in China"  is this a sign of things to come?

If it were, GW would go down faster than a $5 hook.... I better stop there.

Seriously though, sending models to China to be mass produced would probably be the death knell of GW.  The quality would be atrocious; there would be no detail; and forget quality control.

-Jmz

Tell that to the chinamen that made your star wars figures, or your Xbox 360. Perhaps that's not the best example...  

Chinese production of GW minis could work, but would probably never happen unless they (GW) were bought up.

I'd agree with you, if China made the GW minis out of diecast metal.

Yes, I'd like to order 3 Hot Wheels Rip Roarin' Rhinos, and 2 Matchbox Deadly Dashing Demolishers.

-Jmz

Posted By Jmznudd on 01/27/2007 10:45 AM

If it were, GW would go down faster than a $5 hook.... I better stop there.

Seriously though, sending models to China to be mass produced would probably be the death knell of GW.  The quality would be atrocious; there would be no detail; and forget quality control.

-Jmz

I guess you never have seen trumpeter model kits from china. They are some of the best injection plastic kits out there.

Thomas

I agree with Wynnstudio. The reason WizKids figures look like crap is because they have their figures made as cheap as possible. If GW keeps figure design in-house, shipped their molds to China, and used the same plastic in production, then the consumer shouldn't notice the difference when they open the box.

 

They can't make their stuff in China. The Chinese make their money from volume...sell more models for less money kinda thing. GW doesn't sell enough to warrant that.

Not quite. China makes its money on the international industrial production scene due to dirt cheap labor. Compared to the rest of the industrialized world, payroll costs there are tiny. I mean, I have a friend in Hong Kong who has a full time live in maid for $300 US per month. That's $3600 US per year. Here in the US, $3600 isn't really that great of a monthly salary.

Sure, you'd prefer to do everything by volume, 'cuz small run productions are by definition not terribly dollar profitable. But when most business's main pay-out is their payroll, it is good for the business to have dirt cheap labor.

Sal.

Well, GW could just cut staff instead.  I predict that eventually all models will be sculpted and all codices written by Tom Kirby.

A GW move to China is a possibility, on the grounds that it bould slash costs. For all my displeasure at GW practices, I do have this to say for them: They havent uprooted and moved their manufacturing base to the Far East. I doubt they will do so unless forced by a takeover or threat of insolvency.

Wizkids took Battletech there and they sell painted miniatures (the mechs are the size of GW dreadnoughts) at a quarter of the price. Not the same quality but good enough for gaming - and as I said its painted and presassembled. This is only possible because of highly exploitive working conditions, much of the work is clearly done by hand, it must be very loabour intensive. Then when you add the profit margins, retail profit margins shipping costs etc you can see that the factory worker gets very little of it.

Chinese Plastic Injection
I went to Singapore for Christmas and picked up some gundam model kits. One was a chinese knockoff of an MG (Master Grade) model, and a friend had the corresponding Bandai, original kit. We opened up the boxes and compared the sprues -- they were identical. We even got confused as to what model the sprues belonged to, and then realised it honestly didn't matter if a lifetime gundam modeler an a mini painter couldn't tell the difference.

Chinese Cheap Labor
Is not really that cheap. A maid in Hong Kong maybe $300 a month, I know office workers and even middle managers making around that out here in Sri Lanka - who fancy themselves well paid. China's MANUFACTURING is cheap -- not it's labor. They have plenty of resources and they all cost nothing.

As far as cheap labor is concerned, the trick is to find a country with such a bad exchange rate that the spare change you tip a waiter is enough for him to slap the manager and yell "now I start my own hotel!" If a nation's exchange rate is that weak then it typically is a poorer country, but if people with masters degrees can go out for drinks at five star restaurants every night on just $800 a month, well, then you've found the perfect country.

The Sri Lankan rupee dropped 8% against the dollar over the last one and a half years. If that keeps up (and it will, you should see the monkeys on typewriters running our government), who needs to raise prices?

Chinese Labor Conditions
While the pay is better and the standard of living is far superior fore the Chinese factory worker than say an Indian factory worker, they aren't exactly put first. Construction workers in Beijing get paid -- once the building is completed. I know of a chap who runs a WoW gold farm in the mainland -- his staff work twelve hour shifts and don't get paid unless they hit their daily quota. There is no real interest in making workplaces pleasant for workers. It's often not so much that they're treated badly, but that they sure as hell aren't treated well.

Why manufacturing in China is a really bad idea
A venture capitalist told me recently, "if you do business in China you'll get ripped off. The question is when, and can you plan and budget for that? If you don't know that, you're an amateur and you deserve it."

Another friend of mine tried manufacturing some facial masks in China. The samples they sent us were great. When the first batch was done, it was tens of thousands of pretty, sealed, packets of utter rubbish (sound familiar, prepainted fans?). This is a nation where factories have been shut down for producing fake birth control pills and baby formula. If you don't expect to get screwed, you might find your business plan in some jeopardy.

If GW manufactured in China, I wouldn't just be comparing gundam model kit sprues, and a lot of people in the UK would be flying to Singapore and Hong Kong to buy their "super savings" megaforces.

Well, you can get good products in China.... but you have to send one guy of your staff who supervises on location. See Rackham for how it is done properly.

Neat post, pnweerar.

Thanks mate .

Yes, very enlightening.

Living in Sri Lanka must be pretty cool.  You guys have Legend of Zelda money.

And seperatist rebel groups.

And Arthur C. Clarke.

And dudes that wear crazy mustaches! Crazy!

For what it's worth, I am a procurement manager specializing in outsourced mfg to China and not some internet Greenspan talking out of his azz with pure speculation


Prime reason why GW would likely not want to produce in china, IP infringement. No matter how reputable their supply base, Its possible copies of the figs would be flowing like water within a couple of months of introduction. A plastics injection house could claim to "destroy" the tooling upon its lifecycle end, only to sell them to someone on the side who puts out shoddy copies until he gets caught.

As far as quality goes, you get what you pay for. The myth that made in China automatically = crap is just that, a myth. Granted, the $$$ is king and many mfg companies there are out for a fast buck, but sticking with established, reputable plastics companies would gurantee quality levels on par with or even exceeeding western standards. My own industry is invovled in notebook computer mfg and our defect rates are no worse than when we produced in the states. Because of quality related penalties in the contracts with our outsource partners, there are many cases where defect rates are actually LOWER.

Pay for labor is relative. the farther west you go, the cheaper it becomes. Shanghai, Shenzen and Guandong areas are the most industrialized and modern, so costs of living are higher than the rest of China. To give yet another maid example, I am researching an expat. contract to relocate my family to Shanghai. From my business contacts there, I could expect to pay less than $50 per month for a full service maid, including some cooking, child care and basic errands. Average monthly wage for non-skilled labor in China is less than $350 per month.

Transportation costs are what would worry me. Sure, GW products are relatively long lifecycle, so you could slow boat eveything, but there is a danger that mfg cost savings would be eaten up by trans. costs. This is especially true when we consider the rapid fluctuations in fuel costs.

Pay for labor is relative. the farther west you go, the cheaper it becomes. Shanghai, Shenzen and Guandong areas are the most industrialized and modern, so costs of living are higher than the rest of China ... From my business contacts there, I could expect to pay less than $50 per month for a full service maid ... Average monthly wage for non-skilled labor in China is less than $350 per month.

Thanks, good to have a hard number.

Skilled workers in Sri Lanka is anywhere from $50-$200.
Bachelors degree make $150 and up.
Masters degrees make $300 and up.

I'm told India can be even cheaper, but the threshold seems to be how cheap can labor be and still be embedded in a functioning infrastructure (airports, grocery stores, the internet). I'm sure labor is pretty cheap in Eritrea, but that doesn't mean it's a good place to do business.

It is indeed a nation with zelda money, Saddam Hussein moustaches, and seperatists. Arthur C. Clarke was a cool guy but he's sadly quite senile these days - and has been for many years. When I was wee lad I told him I was starting a science fiction club and he lent us almost his entire collection of fiction.

Turned out to be a real curse though, we spent all our time raising money to pay rent for where we were keeping all the books...

Sri Lanka is a great RPG to play for a couple of months, but after that - well - even Zelda gets boring.

I don't know Big O, word on the street in Houston is that you talk out of your azz a lot lately...

"Prime reason why GW would likely not want to produce in china, IP infringement. No matter how reputable their supply base, Its possible copies of the figs would be flowing like water within a couple of months of introduction. A plastics injection house could claim to "destroy" the tooling upon its lifecycle end, only to sell them to someone on the side who puts out shoddy copies until he gets caught."

That sounds very true, but...why hasnt it happened already? The far east has been a center for counterfeit goods since the seventies. The kernel of Hong Kongs tech industry started with 'Apple street' which had a larger production run of Apple Macs than the genuine Apple factory back in the day.

If they can reverse engineer and build microcircuits thery could certainly poduce bootleg marines, all they would need is a laser scanner, a telemetric cutter to copy the tool and the sprue they want to rip off. Yes they have all those things, the people doing the rips are not backstreet sweathouses but in many cases large and well established businesses.

The reason it hasnt happened is because as counterfeit goods are concerned there are far bigger fish than GW. You make a tool for counterfeit Mercedes parts and you are in the money.

Saying that, yes quality is very high. So much so that the late Emperor Hirohito of Japan was caught wearing a YSL tie on television. It looked very authentic by its quality. that was in the 70's, things have gone a long way since. If Chinese bootleggers sold boxsets of GW minitures on the internet I seriously doubt anyone, including GW would be able to tell if they were genuine or not.

Posted By jfrazell on 01/30/2007 6:50 AM

For what it's worth, I am a procurement manager specializing in outsourced mfg to China and not some internet Greenspan talking out of his azz with pure speculation

I don't know Big O, word on the street in Houston is that you talk out of your azz a lot lately...

LOL, Reminds me of an Ace Ventura scene...........