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From another thread:

Posted By Hellfury on 01/26/2007 2:47 PM
I think the schisms being formed here are seriously slowed.

You have The Complainers.
A Nasty jaded lot whose cynicism are matched only by their vitriol. Most have probably been in the hobby too long and need a different avenue. The type of people who wont be happy until GW gives birth to solid gold.

Then you have The Complainers Who Complain About Complainers.
This lot is simply is tired of the apparent negativity that has been building up. Whether the criticism is real or perceived, they feel its their duty to point out the fact  that there is probably someone somewhere complaining, proclaiming such at every opportunity that arises.

He's right. I feel it's more than just a game to many people though, which is why we have this problem.

I think we can accept that everyone on this board understands that GW is not God's answer to life, the universe, and everything. If you would say no, and that all GW customers are the suckkerz, then you are being unfair on those of us who buy GW products.

Also, I think we can accept that there is a laundry list of dissatisfaction that GW has created in its wake, particularly with regards to its older, discarded, client base. GW is a cult-brand. When you tamper with that, you are going to create an unholy crapstorm. Anyone who says "oh get over it whiner" is being insensitive to people who have invested a great deal of time, energy, and commitment into something that helped define their very identity.

That said...

It is not pleasant when most threads ends up with at least a few comments back and forth about how foul GW is. We know its foul. That's why we are on dakka, it's why we prefer dakka, and why we read and post on the pricing and other such kvetch-threads. But we don't want to read about it on EVERY thread. Sure, you can talk about whatever you like, the same way a person can keep talk ing about a grilfriend who screwed him over. But consider:

"Hey Bob, let's go get ice cream."
"Sure. But let's not get vanilla. I hate vanilla.  That Beeyatch Kirbeena liked vanilla. Have I mentioned lately how much I don't like Kirbeena? Two years now I haven't talked to her."

"Hey Bob, what time is it?"
"Nine thirty. Same time Kirbeena smashed up my car, a year ago today in fact. They revoked hr license, serves her right. Now she has to take the subway to go to work, serves her right!"

"Hey Bob, Dremel or pin vice?"
"Damn that Kirbeena. Dremel her I say."

It becomes unpleasant. No one is saying Kirbeena isn't a beeyatch. It's just that our Bobs, who I believe are members with a lot of worthwhile things to say, should maybe consider that going on about Kirbeena in so many threads makes them less pleasant for the rest of us. You can if you want to, you have every right to do so and let no one tell you otherwise.

I just want you to be aware that it creates an environment that is less enjoyable for the rest of us. Post with this knowledge.

To our complainers about complainers, whom I empathise with, realize this - Dakka sometimes seems a lot like a support group for jilted lovers, because that is part of what it is. GW is a cult-brand -- mess with that and you have a crapstorm of trouble. To ignore or attack these people is to be ignorant of this and to be insensitive to the feelings of good blokes.

You don't have to get annoyed, getting annoyed is a choice you make. Expect the negativity (would you rather be on warseer?), and if you really must just ignore the poster and carry on down the thread. By all means say what you like, but go with the knowledge that it is unfair and unkind to be an arse to complainers. If you would like people to care more about what you find pleasant, you should consider accomodating their own feelings.

So just relax, love each other more, and maybe dwell a bit more on what you're writing before you post it. Even Jester is being serious -- we need to fix that.

Lol awesome, I love it. To be honest I would be unhappy if the negativity left Dakka, I'm usually lurking only to watch arguments break out and cynical words get tossed around. Heap on the scorn and vent, lest it ruin the rest of your gaming later! Well, thats jaded too, but I'm in the second camp, complaining about complainers who won't stop complaining. I've found talking about the game to be more interesting since I've quit being such a diehard fan, sometimes I even see why people think we're like the geeks in sitcoms.

It's damn near impossible to just shrug and get over things, especially that *female dog* Kirbeena. I can't believe she wrecked Bob's life almost as bad as mine! But seriously, we should approach life in a much more upbeat way. It'd be amazing if a forum did that for people though!

Posted By pnweerar on 01/26/2007 10:59 PM
So just relax, love each other more, and maybe dwell a bit more on what you're writing before you post it.

  As some of you are probably already aware, I love you all very, very much.  Even (especially?) that guy who docked people comp points for bringing scratchbuilt drop pods to a tournament.  If Tom Kirby or even Gav Thorpe started posting here, I'd love them too.  And I love people who complain about people who complain about complainers. 
  You know, over on DailyKos they would tag a thread like this "[meta]" so you knew what category it belonged to...  just a random thought. 

Hey, I hate that b!tch Kirbeena too!  Screw that stupid b!tch!

Posted By Pariah Press on 01/27/2007 12:40 AM
If Tom Kirby or even Gav Thorpe started posting here, I'd love them too.  And I love people who complain about people who complain about complainers.

I'd like to "love" Tom Kirby too.  In a very manly physical sort of way.  Whether he likes it or not.  I'll bet he has nice soft hands.  I'd "love" Gav Thorpe too but for him I'd be more gentle. :heart:

Posted By pnweerar on 01/26/2007 10:59 PM
I think we can accept that everyone on this board understands that GW is not God's answer to life, the universe, and everything.

But what if it is though?  Whoa...  Or maybe GW is the answer, and we just have to discover the question!  Like...

Q: Where do I not go to get hobby supplies?
A: GW!

Posted By Pariah Press on 01/27/2007 12:40 AM

Posted By pnweerar on 01/26/2007 10:59 PM
So just relax, love each other more, and maybe dwell a bit more on what you're writing before you post it.

  As some of you are probably already aware, I love you all very, very much.  Even (especially?) that guy who docked people comp points for bringing scratchbuilt drop pods to a tournament.  If Tom Kirby or even Gav Thorpe started posting here, I'd love them too.  And I love people who complain about people who complain about complainers. 
  You know, over on DailyKos they would tag a thread like this "[meta]" so you knew what category it belonged to...  just a random thought. 

Chastity belts on, people!

Kirby does need a good loving. But if your CEO has the same name as a Nintendo character, you can't expect too much.

Good CEO name: General Patton
Bad CEO name: Jigglypuff

*shrug* It's really not that big a deal. Dakka has gone this way before. It's all part of the cycle.

Hatas: GW is the suxxor!1!
Playa Hatas: No! GW is the roxx0r! Quit hatin'!11!two!
Everyone else: Guys! Why all the hatin?
Some dude: Um, I like Warmachine...And Thunderbolt mountain has some cool elves...
Cthullu: O R'yleh?

Eventually it works itself out, and we go through a different cycle: The crazy conversion cycle. The oodles of rumors cycle. The power-gamer cycle. The non-power-gamer cycle. The math cycle. The Light Cycle. It really does all go back to Tron, doesn't it?

All things pass. All that lives must die. We are travelers on the same road that leads to the same end. And if some people want to kvetch, let 'em. And if some people want to be called Jigglypuff, hey, I'm not here to judge.

Can I be Bob?

1. If someone 'complains' it is probably because they have something to say, and not necessarily because they want to jump on a GW bashing bandwagon for fun.
Too many peoiple fail to comprehent the difference between a a complaint and a rant. They assume that any complaint is '*female dog*ing' or 'ranting'. Maybe from their own self experience they lack self control, but please dont assume that about others.

2. Look at the CONTENT of complaints about GW. Often its not e.g. 'yet another price rise' but 'why there is yet another price rise'. Many complaint posts - including my own from the thread this thread was spawned from - are analytical, and they do have something NEW to say.
Most complaints about complaints stem from people not reading the posts and writing off any anti-GW post as 'yet another rant' and over-react accordingly.

3. Persistence is not a gfault in itself. If someone comes back time and time again about price rises its because the prices keep on rising! If someone says yet again that Gw dont listen, its because they still dont listen!
Usually this is replied to with a glib retort to go away and play something else if they have given up on GW. This is an ignorant responce for two reasons:

a) If the person really has given up on GW they would have stopped playing and coming here. Most of us GW grognards still love the hobby and still hope to see change.

b) Persistence works. Has anyone noticed for example the new Fire Prism rules exactly match those recommended changes we bashed out here. I remember myself posting for two fire settings with wide beam S5 Ap4, others said we should have Bs4 at no extra price. Maybe its coincidence, we wont ever know But we do know GW lurks here, they hinted about it themselves.

Now rule changes are a different issue to marketing policy. I dont expect the bnean counters to listen if they can avoid it. But if you will consider Gw to be analogous to an alcoholic. You can tell them to stop drinking till you are blue in the face, but when they reach rock bottom they might actually start listening.

I see no difference here, in fact Gw are already pretending to listen because they are sinking into deeper troubles. The line between profit and net loss is coming up fast. Maybe just maybe they will ask why.

"Most of us GW grognards still love the hobby and still hope to see change."

Very true. I try to think positively when it comes to GW and the hobby in general, hopeful that GW will be able to right the ship through necessary business measures, and continue to provide it's consuming with a game and a product that obviously has a lot of us waiting around for.

Dakka's more or less dead to me. I just don't agree with the common sentiment expressed on this board anymore and I don't see any sign of it improving in the future.
Have fun fighting the currents. Toodles.

To JoJo

Have fun wishing we're all going to miss you!

Posted By jojo_monkey_boy on 01/27/2007 7:54 AM
Dakka's more or less dead to me. I just don't agree with the common sentiment expressed on this board anymore and I don't see any sign of it improving in the future.
Have fun fighting the currents. Toodles.

:S

Much like a salmon driven to spawn I will exert the will to defy the current!
I WILL DEFY THE CURRENT!

Oh crap...

And for Zubbiefish's sake, I will pee downstream.

What does battling against fruit have to do with...

Oh, "currents", not "currants".

I think that the best way to combat whinging on this board is to post quality content.  Can't say that I've done too much of that myself, but once I start playing again I'll turn that around.

Posted By jojo_monkey_boy on 01/27/2007 7:54 AM
Dakka's more or less dead to me. I just don't agree with the common sentiment expressed on this board anymore and I don't see any sign of it improving in the future.
Have fun fighting the currents. Toodles.

I have no Wargames Forum!!!

Good luck storming the castle, Jojo.

Posted By jojo_monkey_boy on 01/27/2007 7:54 AM
Dakka's more or less dead to me. I just don't agree with the common sentiment expressed on this board anymore and I don't see any sign of it improving in the future.
Have fun fighting the currents. Toodles.

What?  You're not even going to put dakka On Notice first?

He did. But we didnt listen. We were warned.
So thats what we get.

Back to more intelligent subjects that warrant consideration though, as opposed to those that dont.

I like Orlanth's post. It puts a lot into perspective.
Thanks for starting a new thread on this, Pnweerar. I didnt start a new thread myself because I didnt want a rash of people jumping down my throat by pointing something out and be relagated to the flames. It seems to be the trendy thing lately.

So Jojo gave Dakka a double wag of the finger? And he put it on notice?! And no one told me?!!

You were too busy being serious.

That's "rummaging through your underwear drawer" to you, pnweerar!

Posted By jojo_monkey_boy on 01/27/2007 7:54 AM
Dakka's more or less dead to me. I just don't agree with the common sentiment expressed on this board anymore and I don't see any sign of it improving in the future.
Have fun fighting the currents. Toodles.

Yeah, I came back to Dakka after a time away, and the negativity is really getting to me.

I play the hobby to have fun. Too much negativity just saps enjoyment away. It's pretty much ever-present. I always enjoyed the opportunity for honest discussion, but some people just seem to like having the same conversation on every thread.


EDIT: And the reason it's so noticeable is that there's a lot less tactics discussion then there used to and useful articles don't seem to be produced at the same rate that they used to.

Quite a while ago, Dakka ceased being about the hobby and became about Dakka. It became an image, a mentality, a juvenile disposition. That's what most of Dakka is about these days, which is why I (and quite a few others) hardly ever post. I have little to add to that.

I would disagree with Orlanth...the complaints came hard and heavy long before GW started to deserve them (though they did find a way to deserve a lot of the grief). At this point, it's a chicken and the egg discussion.

Complaining about the complainers isn't worth the trouble, I agree. Just makes it worse. So I don't post. And I use warseer for rumors. But it can still be worth posting in here every now and then. Some of the posters are at least still funny

Posted By dienekes96 on 01/29/2007 1:35 PM
Quite a while ago, Dakka ceased being about the hobby and became about Dakka. It became an image, a mentality, a juvenile disposition. That's what most of Dakka is about these days, which is why I (and quite a few others) hardly ever post. I have little to add to that.

I'd agree with Dienekes' sentiments. From a personal point of view (as opposed to the god-like omniscience I usually post from ), I only used to come here for the modelling forum – dakka had some of the best modellers and painters; as well as good advice and suggestions – and then got drawn into decent discussions, rumours etc.

Nowadays, I've gone back to lurking on the modelling forum because I don't find the content quite as lucid any more – either tangled up in frippery or complaints. Not a criticism of the fora themselves; or the posters on it – things change!

I've not got much to add to the argument either way, but I do feel a little put-out by the less friendly atmosphere Dakka's generating these days.

It must be that t'Internet is getting old and leaky. Now its been around for a decade the planks are coming apart and all the talent is draining away!

After you've been talking about something for ten years, there seems to be little more to say other than to poke fun at those still enamoured of the stuff.

Its all a bit: "Been there, seen that, bought the t-shirt, b*tched at the design" really.

I know it ain't positive, but its all that I can be bothered to post about these days.

Seriously, I have seen a gazillion converted models so why should I comment on yet another. GW drops another b*llock though and "whoosh" I'm all over that like white on rice. Now slapping GW and poking the fanbois - that's always gonna be fun!

Dis post is the sux! Why do you cumplane about h8rs when taht meke you a h8r! LOLOLOLOL!11!!!

Actually it's a pretty nice little post that is applicable to forums all across the innerweb. Mature forums just have a lot of dogging. Personally, so long as the sniping is humorous, I love it. Crass entertainment and all that.

And why do people announce when they leave? (Trick question- ego! albeit in a strange, I desire the approval of internet strangers form....) If you leave, just go! I have left communities for years and come back later- sometimes they are better, sometimes they are gone. Life moves on.

OK, I Came here to complain about Eldar and...

Oh.

Oops, wrong thread. You guys have fun!