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Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 2:46 PM

The Res Orb Rule refers to units, not models.....

Situtation: (assuming another like squad within 6", and a resorb within 6" )

10 warriors take 10 casualties from 2 different sets of hits, 3 by bolter and 2 by lascannon from the first set, and  3 by bolter and 2 by lascannon from the second set.

RAW by the codex only: the the 6 bolter casualties may take WBB rolls as normal, but the 4 lascannon casualties MAY NOT, BECAUSE THERE IS NO UNIT!

RAW using the FAQ: the 3 bolter casualties from the first set  may take WBB rolls as normal, and so may the 2 lascannon casualties from the first set as they are checked for at the time of the casualty. The 3 from bolters from the second set  may take WBB rolls as normal, but the 2 lascannon casualties from the second set MAY NOT, BECAUSE THERE IS NO UNIT!

This is much like the way the Portal is worded. I am sure this was not the intent, but the only way to fix the RAW would be so convoluted that G.W.'s Target audience would have to actually go to school for a few more years (and actually pay attention) to comprehend the english.

The FAQ at least gives you the 2 extra models in this case.

This is my post in another thread.... was just wanting other's opiniion on this take.

If you rolled for the bolters first and any of the warriors got back up, then there would be a unit and this would no longer be an issue. The only point where this matters is in the first couple where they would rely on a straight 4+. So net result of this clever idea: one or two extra warriors are down b/c they can't re-roll their WBB versus some bolters.
cheers

Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 6:03 PM

This is my post in another thread.... was just wanting other's opiniion on this take.

I definitely think you are correct. The original codex version seemed to indicate that the Rez Orb was checked for when models were making their WBB rolls.

The FAQ version now indidcates that models that are knocked down by weapons that don't allow them WBB are immediately removed if a Rez Orb is not in range (indicating that range for the Rez Orb is now checked when the unit suffers the casualties).

 

 

Posted By ether dude on 01/29/2007 6:24 PM
If you rolled for the bolters first and any of the warriors got back up, then there would be a unit and this would no longer be an issue.

All WBB's happen simultaneously, so my point still stands. And the res orb does not allow re-rolls, it allows WBB rolls when Necrons wouldn't normally get one.

Maybe I'm not understanding the problem here but why can't all of the damaged models get a WBB roll? All are in range of a unit and all are within range of the ResOrb when damaged. The ResOrb effect is checked at the time the model is damaged while the WBB range is checked at the beginning of the turn.

Assuming all the damaged Warriors are from the same unit, each would get a chance for WBB regardless of which model was damaged by what weapon. Note: all models would join the nearest unit, thus creating a larger unit.

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 01/29/2007 8:03 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding the problem here but why can't all of the damaged models get a WBB roll? All are in range of a unit and all are within range of the ResOrb when damaged. The ResOrb effect is checked at the time the model is damaged while the WBB range is checked at the beginning of the turn.

Yep, you're missing the fact that if you disregard the Necron FAQ the codex implies that you check for Rez Orb range when making WBB rolls (at the start of the turn).

Of course, the FAQ clarifies (or changes, depending on your point of view) this rule so that you now must check for Rez Orb range when models are damaged rather than when making WBB rolls at the start of the turn.

 

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 01/29/2007 8:03 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding the problem here but why can't all of the damaged models get a WBB roll?

In the example I gave 2 Necrons (the 2 Lascannon casualties from the second set of wounding hits) would NEVER get their WBB regardless. and here's why:

Codex Necrons, pg. 15:

"All Necron UNITS with a model within 6" (including the Lord himself) may attempt  'We'll be back' rolls even if they were damaged by weaponry that causes instant death or close combat weapons that allow no Armour save."

As all wounds from any given set are applied at the same time, once all the casualties are taken (the last Necron is wounded, and fails, or gets no save), there is no longer a UNIT within 6" of the Orb; All the members are dead. It doesn't matter when you measure for eligibility, if there is no unit. Per the RAW even a Necron Lord can't actually benefit from the Orb, unless he's currently joined a unit of Necrons with at least one surviving member.

As I stated in my OP, I don't believe this is the intent, and would never actually play this way, but I thought I'd bring it up.

 

Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 8:58 PM

Per the RAW even a Necron Lord can't actually benefit from the Orb, unless he's currently joined a unit of Necrons with at least one surviving member.

As I stated in my OP, I don't believe this is the intent, and would never actually play this way, but I thought I'd bring it up.

Well that's just not true. The Rez Orb rules specifically allow a Necron Lord to benefit from his own Rez Orb even when he is damaged.

"All Necron UNITS with a model within 6" (including the Lord himself)

 

And therein lies the crux of the dilemma.... Do downed necrons count as a unit? Unless they do, the resorb rules in the codex are severely impacted.

In the case of the Lord, the question is irrelevant since the rule specifically identifies that he gets to use the effects of his Orb.


As a devil's advocate, the rule could even say: "All Eldar units with a model within 6" (including the Lord himself). . ."

And he would still get to use the Rez Orb. Whether or not he is an Eldar or a unit doesn't matter since the rule identifies him as someone who may utilize its effects.

 

and to agree with yakface

the necron lord is a unit to himself as an ic hes his own unit thus hed get his wbb res orb roll regardless of the fact it mentions he does

Drop: Do you ACTUALLY run a game store with that grammar?

Yak: I see your point, but the question still exists: Do downed Necrons count as a unit? And if not, how does that affect the RAW on the resorb? Notably there is a passage in the WBB rule about them being nothing but place-holders on the board.

I think you are missing something here Lordhat, the fact that you state the downed Necron unit is within range of another Necron unit. I would agree that if the downed Necron unit was by itself, then the Res Orb does nothing for them... but because they are within 6 inches of another Necron unit, then that downed unit still gets the WBB rolls (all of them do). Any that stand up will be placed with that other unit.

And as far as does a down Necron unit still count as a unit.... well sure. If a necron unit of 10 suffers 7 losses, and flees, then they drag their sorry comrades with them (in the FAQ). When those sorry comrade make a WBB roll (if eligible) then they stand back up with the unit they were originally with.

-Jmz

Jmz has picked up on the bit everyone else here has missed - if you read the FAQ carefully, it never states that the Res Orb use is changed. It merely provides a simplification for handling one specific situation, where a Necron unit is falling back, and how to handle models that were "killed" by power weapons in that unit in regards to WBB. It has nothing to do with handling WBB/Res Orb determination at any other time.

Posted By Spack on 01/30/2007 12:39 AM

Jmz has picked up on the bit everyone else here has missed - if you read the FAQ carefully, it never states that the Res Orb use is changed. It merely provides a simplification for handling one specific situation, where a Necron unit is falling back, and how to handle models that were "killed" by power weapons in that unit in regards to WBB. It has nothing to do with handling WBB/Res Orb determination at any other time.

My point is that the Res orb refers to UNITS, not models. WBB refers to individual models. I'm not saying that anything modifies how these rules work, just that once a unit is completely killed, by the RAW the res orb loses a target, and is ineffectual.

To re-iterate:

"As all wounds from any given set are applied at the same time, once all the casualties are taken (the last Necron is wounded, and fails, or gets no save), there is no longer a UNIT within 6" of the Orb; All the members are dead. It doesn't matter when you measure for eligibility, if there is no unit."

If there is no unit, the res orb cannot function.

  Once again, I'll note that this is fairly obviously NOT the intent, nor how I would play the situation. 

But Lordhat, when all of the casualties were applied, there WAS a unit. As the FAQ seems to indicate that the effects of the resorb are taken into account when the casualties are inflicted, it makes no difference that the downed necrons no longer constitute a unit when their next turn, and wbb rolls, come around. Your argument is based on the state of the unit AFTER all of the casualties occur to deny an effect that takes place DURING the casualties.

In your example the two lascannon shots in the second set would get WBB rolls as well, because when the casualties were inflicted, there was indeed a unit to inflict them upon.  However, as there is no longer a member of their original unit to rejoin, they would be forced to join the unit that was 6" from them.

You there a easy way to solve this just make sure you have tomb spyder with in 12 ins of a another unit of the the same thing..... ( alway take at least one tomb spyder)


my two cents

Lord hat's timing seems clear here:

1) Resolve wounds (take saves).
2) Check to see if the res orb can work.
3) Resolve wounds from 2nd shooting volley
4) Check to see if the res orb can work
(next turn)
5) Make WBB rolls.

SO, if during step 3 the entire unit is destroyed, when you check to see if the res orb can work in step 4, it cannot because the downed necrons are place holders, not a unit. During step 5 you make WBB rolls for all of the models that can make them, including wounded models that were eligible for WBB rolls from the res orb during step 2.

Unless 1 & 2 are simul, or res orb is checked after each wound is inflicted - then I think Lordhat is correct

Even if the FAQ didnt say to check for the res orb's effect at the time they become casualties, you have no way of claiming that your steps 3 and 4 aren't done at the same time. Until the next unit starts shooting, everything that happened since the shooter rolled their dice to hit is happening at the same time.

Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 9:56 PM

Drop: Do you ACTUALLY run a game store with that grammar?

Yak: I see your point, but the question still exists: Do downed Necrons count as a unit? And if not, how does that affect the RAW on the resorb? Notably there is a passage in the WBB rule about them being nothing but place-holders on the board.

Last time i checked this was an online forum and not an english class.

If i was typing up a document to go out for publication then you may have a valid point. ( Besides the one on top of your head )

Posted By The Drop Zone on 01/31/2007 7:15 PM

Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 9:56 PM

Drop: Do you ACTUALLY run a game store with that grammar?

Yak: I see your point, but the question still exists: Do downed Necrons count as a unit? And if not, how does that affect the RAW on the resorb? Notably there is a passage in the WBB rule about them being nothing but place-holders on the board.

Last time i checked this was an online forum and not an english class.

If i was typing up a document to go out for publication then you may have a valid point. ( Besides the one on top of your head )

LOL Sorry bud.  Bad grammar is a pet peev. In light of how much I peruse forums, I've tried to send it to the pound, but it keeps coming back home. Worse than a pigeon, even. 

Posted By spasheridan on 01/30/2007 4:38 PM
Lord hat's timing seems clear here:

1) Resolve wounds (take saves).
2) Check to see if the res orb can work.
3) Resolve wounds from 2nd shooting volley
4) Check to see if the res orb can work
(next turn)
5) Make WBB rolls.

SO, if during step 3 the entire unit is destroyed, when you check to see if the res orb can work in step 4, it cannot because the downed necrons are place holders, not a unit. During step 5 you make WBB rolls for all of the models that can make them, including wounded models that were eligible for WBB rolls from the res orb during step 2.

Unless 1 & 2 are simul, or res orb is checked after each wound is inflicted - then I think Lordhat is correct

Thanks, Spash. I needed a way to clarify, and couldn't find it myself.

Posted By Slyde on 01/30/2007 8:07 PM
Even if the FAQ didnt say to check for the res orb's effect at the time they become casualties, you have no way of claiming that your steps 3 and 4 aren't done at the same time.

 Except without the FAQ, the Rulebook indicates that Res Orb measurement happens at the same time as (or just prior to) WBB rolls, which instance I ALSO covered in my OP.

Posted By The Drop Zone on 01/31/2007 7:15 PM

Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 9:56 PM

Drop: Do you ACTUALLY run a game store with that grammar?

Last time i checked this was an online forum and not an english class.

If i was typing up a document to go out for publication then you may have a valid point. ( Besides the one on top of your head )

OT OT OT

To be fair, he has a valid point. When you post under the name of your company, every character you type becomes a reflection of that company.

Once you associate the poster with the company, it becomes incredibly hard to segregate the two. It might not be fair, but that's the reality of it.

And in internet sales, isn't perception 9/10ths of the law?