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Been reviewing the Eldar codex lately, and trying to understand what to do with a wraithguard, how they could possibly be employed, particularly as a troop choice?

WHY ARE THEY 35 POINTS?

A unit of 10 with a seer is over 350 points, as a general benchmark comparisson, they'd be up against the equivalent of 3 Las/plas squads in a marine army and they would probably need 3 turns before they could even close to fire (and the Las/plas, fire alone would have destroyed them by then...

This is compounded by the fact that they require a NannySeer (more wasted points).  What is this unit for?

I agree its hard to judge their use easily.

For me, since I play predominatly COD games, I find their best used as a bodygaurd for walking farseers, especially eldrad.
Though I have never fielded more than one unit in the new codex, I can see a neat if somewhat ineffective use in an iyanden flavored list for COD games.

They seem redundant. You already have dragons who do pretty much the same thing at half the cost and you have ranged weaponry that is just as effective. They give up large amounts of points in tourneys. Besides a themed army built around them I just don't see them as viable and you almost have to have a dedicated transport to get them close enough to be effective.

I concur, my only guess is that the points cost is a knee jerk reaction for creating a whole T6 unit, with a special gun.

IMO, if they had 3 wounds each, they'd be about right, or if they had 24 inch ranges.

I can't imagine their current point cost, and abilities, come from any play testing, furthermore I really can't imagine a reasonable equal point scenario where they would beat anything people would actually play...

How about if they walk up, shoot nightbringer and make him vanish into the warp. Thats prety close and can be done in one volly.

OK, I'll take that. A good scenario.

But nightbringer isn't 350+ points is he?

Actually I think inviting the Necron Comparrison is a very good one, I'd like to compare the immortal with the wraithguard:

Wraithguard:Immortal                          ADVANTAGE:

6inchmove:6inchmove                         EQUAL

3+sv:3+sv                                                EQUAL

Range12 inches: Range 24 Inches  NECRON

Gun ST variable: Gun St5/Flayer         EQUAL

1 Shot: 2 Shots                                       NECRON

T6:T5  WBB                                              EQUAL

35pts each:20?pts each                       NECRON       EDIT: 28 pts each

Fearless/Wraithsight:LD10                  EQUAL

No INV Sv:WBB                                       NECRON

Transportable:Transportable               EQUAL

So generally, an immortal does everything a Wraithguard can, with the winning points: Cost, Range, Rate of Fire, and WBB.  Directly comparing the units in a vacuum may not be fair as what else is in an army, and mission played may play significant factors, but it doesn't appear to be a heinous conclusion that Immortals decisively  outclass Wraithguard.

?

Posted By Augustus on 01/30/2007 12:57 PM

Actually I think inviting the Necron Comparrison is a very good one, I'd like to compare the immortal with the wraithguard:

Wraithguard:Immortal                          ADVANTAGE:

6inchmove:6inchmove                         EQUAL

3+sv:3+sv                                                EQUAL

Range12 inches: Range 24 Inches  NECRON

Gun ST variable: Gun St5/Flayer         EQUAL

1 Shot: 2 Shots                                       NECRON

T6:T5  WBB                                              EQUAL

35pts each:20?pts each                       NECRON

Fearless/Wraithsight:LD10                  EQUAL

No INV Sv:WBB                                       NECRON

Transportable:Transportable               EQUAL

So generally, an immortal does everything a Wraithguard can, with the winning points: Cost, Range, Rate of Fire, and WBB.  Directly comparing the units in a vacuum may not be fair as what else is in an army, and mission played may play significant factors, but it doesn't appear to be a heinous conclusion that Immortals decisively  outclass Wraithguard.

?

Out of interest, you counted WBB twice (in the toughness section and the save section).  Also, Immortals are 28 points a pop, rather than 20.  I'd also mention that the transportability of immortals is less reliable (if you go with a lord) or rather slower (a monolith) than WG's transport.  Also fearless & wraithsight is better than Ld10, particularly since you can buy a spiritseer.

I agree with your conclusion, since at best the two units are equivalent, and the WG cost 25% more

I believe that C'Tan only take one wound from insta-kill weapons.  Immortals are 28 points...  28 glorious points of awesome.

Augustus:  Your analysis is flawed. 

The Wraithguard has the edge in:  Raw Toughness (T6)

The Necron Immortal, while an elite, has the edge in:  Weapon (More shots, more range, gauss flayer effect), Overall HTH effectiveness (not taking fearless wounds)
Overall Survivability (WBB), Points Cost, Transportability (Max squad can be teleported, WG are stuck at 5 and a minder)

The only things that Wraithguard are good at is being a meatshield for a character.  And unfortunately, they are a poor meatshield since most anti MEQ weapons will still wound them on 2's with no save... which doesn't help.  They should have been given a second wound instead of T6.  A boost to 18"  guns wouldn't hurt either.

Getting a little OT, ideally, IMO, Wraithguard should be:

S5, T5, W2, I2, 3+(5+I) due to Wraithbone Construction, 18" Wraithcannon

Wraith Sight should be WS2, BS2.  If they are fighting in HTH alongside another Eldar unit, or shooting at a unit targeted by another Eldar unit, they get WS3 and BS3.  (See 2nd edition fluff about being better able to see Eldar souls as opposed to enemy ones).

Inclusion of a warlock in the squad makes their WS and BS 4.

30 points each.

I don't believe your all thinking very clearly.

Fearless, Toughness 6, Strength 5, 3+ save, with conceal warlocks for the troop choices. 390 points of damn tough, their weapon hit on a 3+, and are ap 2, and on a 6 your just dead. They can usually hold objectives very well. . .

With enhance lock in squad they get 5 init, 5 weapon skill

For the Elite Choice use 5 of them with a enhance warlock in wave serpents with Vectored Engines, Star Engines, and Spirit Stones. Thats a 36 inch move allowing you to hit any part of his army and should be able to roast any armor, las plas, or devestator squad.

I am fielding a force of something similar to this. . .

Karandas
10 Striking Scorpions with unskilled claw exarch

5 wraith guard, with enhance lock, and wave serpent with SE, VE, Spirit Stones, Scatter Laser

5 wraith guard, with enhance lock, and wave serpent with SE, VE, Spirit Stones, Scatter Laser

10 Wraith Guard with Conceal Lock

10 Wraith Guard with Conceal Lock

I think i had something else but I can't remember what it was off hand, its about 2k.

WBB twice (in the toughness section and the save section). 

Yes I did, because its efectively both, a second save and a compensator for not being T6.

Also, Immortals are 28 points a pop, rather than 20. 

Yes, edited, I orignally put "20?" indicating that I knew they were 20 points plus, thanks for the update, point stands: they are cheaper.

I'd also mention that the transportability of immortals is less reliable (if you go with a lord) or rather slower (a monolith) than WG's transport.  

Less reliable, are you sure? Immortals never get killed (or entangled) when their Monolith is damaged, also they are the only troops in the game who can effectively embark, disembark, and fire all in the same turn? Faster? perhaps with star engines, but the models themselves may actually travel 38 inches... 18 inches of the stationary lith (if memory serves), 6 inch lith thickness, 2 inch deploy and 6 inches of movement...   

fearless & wraithsight is better than Ld10, particularly since you can buy a spiritseer

Is it? maybe until the spiritseer gets killed, and what if one isn't taken?  Remeber this is supposed to be a direct comparrison.  If you pull the seer into the mix, I want the rez orb lord as well...

I don't believe your all thinking very clearly.

Well, if you are advocating Wraithguard, that's certainly mutual! Honestly, I'm glad you piped in, some of your concepts are intriguing! Believe it or not, I want to like Wraithguard, I even have a 10 man painted unit of airbrushed real ones!

Fearless, Toughness 6, Strength 5, 3+ save, with conceal warlocks for the troop choices. 390 points of damn tough, their weapon hit on a 3+, and are ap 2, and on a 6 your just dead. They can usually hold objectives very well. . .

390 points? Thats basically the whole beef!  Wouldn't you rather have 2 or 3 other units? 3 Las Plas squads would still kill them...

use 5 of them with a enhance warlock in wave serpents with Vectored Engines, Star Engines, and Spirit Stones. ...36 inch move ... roast any armor, las plas, or dev... (edited mine...)

Certainly!  Good point, potentially an excellent shock unit, but why not have twice as many Firedragons? I have even played that unit in the old codex.  Even then, I had the same conclusion, and now fusion guns are S8! ?  It's really better to play Snakes on a Plane for like cost and twice the firepower, much better AT and Anti Infantry capacity!

Sory but I don't think thats a very good list...

Wraithguard are tougher than you're giving them credit for. Are they a AAA class unit? Probably not. But I'd give them no worse than a B.

I've played a couple of games with the new codex with a core of 2 10-man Wraithguard squads, each with a Conceal warlock, and a Farseer with Spirit Stones backing them both up with Fortune. We're talking ~850 points out of a 1850 army. That buys us 20 T6 3+/5+ rerollable save models with a 12" kill anything range (plus a few witchblades or singing spears thrown in for fun). Depending on how you use it, that can be an incredibly solid core of an army - far tougher than what pretty much any other army out there can throw at it. They're virtually immune to small arms fire - it takes *significantly* more bolter shots to take out a Fortuned, Concealed Wraithguard than it does a Terminator - oddly enough, lasguns are just as useful against Wraithguard as bolters are. Rerollable 5+ (or better if you find them nice cover), while not perfect, is surprisingly useful against lascannons, and such a Wraithguard unit is probably stronger against Assault Cannons than even Falcons are.

In CoD particularly, the above Wraithguard core of an army is just mean, with far more opportunities to walk them into range. If you get them into a building - especially a Medicae Facility - the enemy will *never* get them out except with huge hordes of hand-to-hand rending or high-strength power weapon attacks. Shooting is useless against them - there's no weapon in the game that denies them FNP due to double strength. Those Immortals you compare Wraithguard to can have their WBB denied a variety of ways; the T6 is always in effect, and with a Conceal warlock they're getting their 5+ (possibly rerollable with Fortune) invuln no matter what.

Another thing you're discounting, Augustus, is the Wraithguard's gun effects. Sure, the 12" sucks. On the other hand, it's also AP1 and gets 33% glance/33% pen against anything - even a Monolith. That's way, way better than Gauss effects. It also (unlike a Melta weapon) is just as effective from 6"-12" against those Land Raiders/Leman Russes/Monoliths. It's about the only thing in the Eldar army - besides Swooping Hawks with Intercept - that can reliably take down a Monolith, or for that matter a Land Raider with Blessed Hull.

So are Wraithguard the awesomest deathkilly unit of doom ever? No, that's probably Harlequins in the Eldar codex . But as a stubborn, very difficult core of infantry to kill, they're damn good - better than you're giving them credit for. 850 points isn't really that much for what you get; in an 1850 army you've got another 1000 points to support those Wraithguard with. Like I said - they rate at least a B. Like any other Eldar unit, they just need the right support and the right role.

Posted By Augustus on 01/30/2007 2:43 PM

Believe it or not, I want to like Wraithguard, I even have a 10 man painted unit of airbrushed real ones!

Well, I suppose they're not living so they don't eat much, but man - where do you keep them when you're not using them?

-Polare

Ha ha.

In the arboretum.

<h2>I FIGURED OUT WHAT WRAITHGUARD ARE FOR!</h2>

PAINTING!  Reducing model count! With 20 of them as half an army, that sure would make things easier to paint!

I personally detest fire dragons, their not fearless, toughness 3, strength 3 in hth, 4+ armor save, can't have a warlock so they die to heavy bolters or alot of other weapons.

I can't argue about the snakes on a plane though. . . although I prefer them infiltrating into cover instead because its much cheaper and you can assault when you come out.

Hellfury mentioned this in passing, but it's a unit worth taking a close look at.

In addition to making the farseer (majority) toughness 6 vs. shooting and giving him a (majority) 3+ armor save--great vs psycannons--they also make him fearless. There's no particular reason not to fortune the unit every turn, and no better power for the accompanying warlock than conceal (the fearless unit doesn't need embolden). They're a solid safety unit that can protect your backfield against deepstrikers, Space Wolf scouts, speeders/pirhanas and podders. That monolith is not going to take a chance on deepstriking into the middle of your army. With 2 witchblades in the unit, any droppoding dreadnaught that survives the wraithcannons will go down in HtH.

Also the minimum size for the unit is 3--which might be about optimal for a Farseer/Eldrad bodyguard.

I don't know about you guys but I recently played 2 1500 PT games recently against Eldar

Both had a 10 man concealed Wraithguard squad. With my chargy marines I took them down with my 400 point command squad then was caught in a cross fire.

My Semi-mech Tau were beat down as I couldn't bring enough fire to bare as the rest of his [sooper-fast] army was on me in turn two.

Both times they won the game for my two opponents. I couldn't bring them down, they seem worth it.

But then again, I am extremely unlucky

Wouldn't the wraithguard make for a decent substitute for Snakes on a Plane?

Bout the same range on their guns, pretty much as effective vs Tanks and infantry, much, much more durable for the counter fire the unit will receive.

I'd think that with a unit of them in a wave serpent they'd do pretty well.

I hesitate to put such high toughness models on a wave serpant, because when it crashes 75% of them are going to take a wound regardless of their toughness. I suppose vectored engines lessens that danger, but at the end of the day I just dont trust a wave serpant to survive shooting that a falcon would shrug off easily.

I guess if you had to run them conceal would be the way to go 3+/5+ invulnerable T6 would be a beech to deal with.

Qoute:
I've played a couple of games with the new codex with a core of 2 10-man Wraithguard squads, each with a Conceal warlock, and a Farseer with Spirit Stones backing them both up with Fortune.

This would probably be the best way to field them. Base your army around 2-3 squads with Wraithlords thrown in. Farseer and warlocks with 2-3 Vypers to claim objectives.

I don't know, all my experiences with Wave Serpents have been pretty positive. They do not act as regular tanks when fully equiped, in 20+ test games, they have only die twice while still having cargo. Once to a lucky 6 (after almost a whole army shot at it) and again because I lost first turn and I didn't have room to hid it properly.

Of all the possible ideas, I think the retinue bodyguard is the best one, with the fortuned 3/5 save and Maj T6.  But, even then, I think a better defenece for a Farseer is being an IC, behind some troops of any kind, that way he isnt targetable at all...  That said, good ideas for the useage, this thread has some good material, in summary:

1 Use 3-5 Wraithguard as a T6 bodyguard for a seer, fortune/conceal them.

2 Use a small wraithguard squad as a shock unit with waveserpent, in situations where return fire on firedragons would get them killed.

3 Use them to hold an objective on your side, (assuming mission has objective).

4 Use them as the 2 mandantory troop choices: (Base an army around 2x10 and avoid painting lots of cheaper troops).

5 Good vs Nightbringer and Monoliths. (If you have a regular necron opponent.)

Some of these are pretty conditional, based on mission and some foresight of an enemy's army.  While I still don't think Wraithguard are generally very good, these suggestions and tactics seem reasonably solidly based.  Thanks for your contributions!

Anymore?

Good conclusions and good advice to those who are debating using them. I just have a hard time looking past the points cost versus other options available in the dex. Wouln't mind hearing from those who have had success using them and how.

...hard time looking past the points cost versus other options available in the dex...

Bingo, me too, but I like where the thread went.

I definitely think they're worth serious consideration in an infantry-based army, particularly an Elfzilla list in which anti-tank weapons will also have Wraithlords and Avatar to deal with. The devastation they can wreak on any tough unit trying to drop in close, like the aforementioned Monolith, or Pods for that matter, is pretty hardcore.

They're definitely worth consideration as a Serpent-bound anti-tank unit over Dragons in a serpent, as Dragons will inevitably be wiped out after deploying by a competent opponent, but Wraithguard are vastly more durable, even when you have half as many due to cost and space considerations in the serpent.

Posted By Mannahnin on 01/31/2007 1:38 PM
I definitely think they're worth serious consideration in an infantry-based army, particularly an Elfzilla list in which anti-tank weapons will also have Wraithlords and Avatar to deal with. The devastation they can wreak on any tough unit trying to drop in close, like the aforementioned Monolith, or Pods for that matter, is pretty hardcore.

Now there's a thought. In 1850 you can fit something like the following:

Farseer w/ 2 fortunes/turn
2x10 Wraithguard w/conceal warlock on foot
2x5 Wraithguard w/conceal warlock in Wave Serpents
2x Wraithlords w/ 2 weapons

Instead of 25-ish T6 wounds in a Tyranid Godzilla army, you get 36 plus 2 tanks. Not too shabby. You don't have a huge number of long-range weapons, but between the Wraithlords and the Wave Serpents you're not absolutely screwed out of them, either. Don't think you'd want an Avatar, though; for 155 points you can get another 4 Wraithguard, and the Fearless ability is wasted on this army.

I imagine this list would have a great time with min/maxed marines, and would give an absolute max-assault cannon-army-o-doom a good run for its money. Too many T6 targets for the rending to take out on its own, and the non-rending assault cannon shots aren't doing much to Wraithguard - especially Fortuned Wraithguard. Similarly, there's just too many targets for lascannon/plasma gun marines to shoot up, and the bolters won't do a thing.

Genestealers would rip this army up pretty good, as would Khorne. Armored Company would absolutely destroy it - too many 48" to 72" range S8 AP3 Battle Cannons for you to get in range with your guns.

-Polare

Elfzilla!

HA that is hilarious!

However, I did not think that you could cast the same psychic power twice with spirit stones....

I think wraithguard exist to shield Dark Reapers. T6 Meat shield!

-Dewey

If you want an Iyanden style army take Wraithguard as elites. The 10+Spiritseer as troops deal doesnt work.

Why. Simply because they are too slow. Anything that they are good at will just be elsewhere, the only exception would holding an objective or taking one in cityfight.

They are a poor meat shield because target priority tests are easy to pass. Now if they blocked LOS to units behind them (but allowed you to fire) without any opportunity for a target priority test I would think striongly about recommending them. However as it stands they dont.

Wraithguard are still far from useless though. Youneed a minimum squad with a warlock in a Wave Serpent though, to ensure they get in gun range.
You wont need more because 5 shots with wraithcannon should be enough. It has its own 'rending' that instant kills zillanids - one of the few methods in the game of killing a carnifex quickly. Dependiong on how your group interprets the wording it may even instant kill a Hive Tyrant.
Monoliths dont like them much either.
If needed they can serve as a tarpit.

Saying that I find D-Cannon a better option, they are indirect fire (the only guaranteed screen is a hill/building) have a respectable range and are cheap. Eldar are not short of tarpits either with Harlies, Dire Avengers and Wraithlord.

Wraithguard can work but are by no means essential. Wraithguard as troops are for Iyanden purists only.