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Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.

Nothing in the marine universe comes remotely close to this level of efficiency.


So in your eyes exalted Champions are broken too because they grant full rerolls under 100pts for 1 model?

Just stop.


Full rerolls is NOTHING compared to TRIPLING attacks, and also having free +1 strength, and having 4 point infantry.

Giving marines full rerolls is also entirely different because the attack volume is a whole lot lower.


Also works on, gasp, cultists.

.....


So cultists who are currently 5ppm and can't get the Catachan bonus lines up with guardsmen being atleast 5ppm with Catachan pushing that to 6ppm. Or are you claiming 4ppm guardsmen are fine in comparison to 5ppm cultists?


Never, albeit World Eaters cultists could come close, fight twice with 3 attacks base and full rerolls, not to mention outflank and recycle if of course we go and don't contextualize.

Wait what does world eaters getting +1 attack have to do with even remotely justify 4ppm guardsmen?


My point was that his supposedly broken trippleing of attacks and +1 S would be broken beyond reason. The closest can go to an as equal as possible analogue would be World Eater cultists with full rerolls wich baseline tripple their attack value and with stratagem can multiply their base attack value by 6 on a charge and have full rerolls and it still is not played. Part of it ofcourse thanks to the slaaneshy double shooting shenanigans but there you don't get as cheap full rerolls.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marmatag wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Except it's plain as day, though.

Guard can also - while doing this - generate a ridiculous amount of CP to fuel whatever super heavy they stable onto their lists.

They also get infinite board control and denial.
They also get screens for all of their MUCH cheaper ranged shooting.

This is indefensible. Guard are winning GTs more than anyone else for a reason. And 2019 is coming up all Guard, too.

Soup is not guard


"Soup is not guard."

This is what people say when they're tapping out.

It's a horrible argument and against the core design of 8th edition, attempting to justify overpowered units by saying that it's a fundamental flaw with the edition itself. If that's the case, let's rework the AP system entirely? Or what other pipe dreams do you have in regards to game balance?

The game is the game. Allies are a part of it.

"Mono is not 8th."


Again missing the keypart that Asmodeus did show you with proof from statistics that the more points were invented in guard the lower the wirkte for the top imperial souplists.


Think before you type, Jesus.

Asmodeus's data was discredited. I've actually seen the best coast pairings data, and Guard is the number 1. They're also number 1 in ITC GTs/Majors, where in order to be faction:Astra Militarum, you need to have AM as your largest detachment.


Ok then give this data,
And having 1001 pts in a IG brigade and the rest in a smashcaptain and knight still shows you the heavy Lifiting is done by them not the guard, except were terrible terrain rules interact with the itc rulesets with unatackable squads in buildings.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:28:19


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
I don't care if you don't take me seriously.

Astra Militarum is the best faction in the game, in terms of tournament placings, and has been for some time.

If you can justify a 4 point model being strength 4, with 3 attacks, and having a rapid fire 2 gun and can fight twice, as well as go to ground, etc, i'd like to see it. I'll wait.

Because they're not 4ppm at that point, you're involving at least two buff characters, one of which is a named SC, a specific subfaction, and it can't do all those things at the same time (cant receive fix bayonets and frfsrf in the same turn).

If we're going to assume this as the basic starting point for Guardsmen, then we're going to have to assume "always on" Gman and Librarian & Chaplain support for Marines.

Dude the HQ's are auto include. Unlike lots of armies that only take HQ's because they have to. Just stop - you can't defend this crap. You do realize the HQ's are also extremely under-costed for what they do to right? For 30 points...they fill hq requirements (they could do nothing and still be worth 30 points) they also double the firepower of 2 40 points units...Sounds like 80 points of firepower to me for 30 points. Plus they have a 5++ (are you freaking serious?). Not even getting into the fact that they can also double the close combat ability of the same unit as well.
That was a lot of text to miss the fundamental context of the conversation that involved no 30pt Company Commanders if we're talking S4 A3 guardsmen, but rather Straken and Ministorum Priests.


Like - I really want to take something other than IG to LVO. I really have no choice though. The units are just that much better that there is literally no choice if you are trying to win. It's disgusting. It's so obvious that I know you know it to. You just don't care cause it's your chosen faction.
Yup, it's all just because I play Guard, nevermind that I have almost as much Chaos marine stuff as Guard stuff (hence the Iron Warriors motto in the sig) and have sizeable Tau, Eldar, GK armies as well (and enough loyalist SM stuff to field a 2.5k force if I ever painted it)


 Marmatag wrote:
105 points for 3 attacks at strength 4 for all guardsmen within bubble distance is bonkers. It's indefensible. You can drop a couple hundred points and have an insane melee & objective grabbing wall of bodies.

Ok, this is a for real real reasonable argument, but is however very different arguments than "Guardsmen should be 7ppm because they're all S4 with 3 attacks with RF2 guns who can fight twice" or comparing 80pts of Guard+Straken+Priest to 80 naked points of Guardians, which was monstrously disingenuous.


In which case, I'd agree that the Catachan doctrine needs toning down and reworking. I've said this numerous times before. Straken and the Priest together may offer much more than was intended coupled with the Catachan doctrine. One will note that outside of this scenario however, neither Straken nor the Priest generally appear to be particularly big issues, in fact I dont even think ive seen a Priest outside of that.


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Actually that's a GW rule, ITC implements GW rules. GW specifically said wobbly model cannot be used to justify a charge. ITC has sense *worked that back for LVO,* because *it makes guard too strong.* Check their updated terrain rules packet.

Wobbly is now sufficient to attack invincible guardsmen.

And you can't claim that the heavy lifting of a list isn't done by the majority of the list. I'm blown away by this nonsense. 1000 points of Guard buys so you so much. If you wanted you could double brigade and have points leftover to spam basilisks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:28:18


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






I genuinely can't believe the 4ppm Guardsmen debate still exists. I suppose that's GW balancing for you though.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Marmatag wrote:
Actually that's a GW rule, ITC implements GW rules. GW specifically said wobbly model cannot be used to justify a charge. ITC has sense *worked that back for LVO,* because *it makes guard too strong.* Check their updated terrain rules packet.

Wobbly is now sufficient to attack invincible guardsmen.

And you can't claim that the heavy lifting of a list isn't done by the majority of the list. I'm blown away by this nonsense. 1000 points of Guard buys so you so much. If you wanted you could double brigade and have points leftover to spam basilisks.


Are you sure? I can claim that actually, because bringing a Castellan with a 3++ literally dictates the list of my enemy.

As for the itc / gw ruleset idc. Common sense would've dictated that an attack should've been possible.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I genuinely can't believe the 4ppm Guardsmen debate still exists. I suppose that's GW balancing for you though.


The lead designer is the imperial guard guy. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Meanwhile the space wolf designer was running around promising 2 point stormshields for thunderwolf cavalry. Hint: they're 10 points after CA.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I genuinely can't believe the 4ppm Guardsmen debate still exists. I suppose that's GW balancing for you though.


Frankly IG squads should go to 5 ppm atleast, if cultists were eregonious enough then guardsmen are too, veterans could either stay and remain Elite or go to 6 ppm and become once more troop choices. Conscripts could drop back to 3 so long commisars don't Auto pass morale for them.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


Except which weapons actually kill more points of guardsmen than anything else in the game?
I would love to know of this mythical anti horde weapons that is apparently never taken because orks and infantry squads are so not terrifying compaired to a knight?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:41:04


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


Except which weapons actually kill more points of guardsmen than anything else in the game?


Normally small arms, massed small arms but you can't bring that to bear since you need to buy expensive AT equipment.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


Agree,, that is part of the problem too.

However the fact that cheap horde is the largest beneficiary of the meta means it's an issue that should be adressed. Especially for the effective hordes. Which is what we saw,, orks got a price bump, and so did cultists. Why guard didn't is baffling.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


Except which weapons actually kill more points of guardsmen than anything else in the game?


Normally small arms, massed small arms but you can't bring that to bear since you need to buy expensive AT equipment.

I'd like a weapon on a unit please as even lasguns kill more points of marines than guardsmen.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


Agree,, that is part of the problem too.

However the fact that cheap horde is the largest beneficiary of the meta means it's an issue that should be adressed. Especially for the effective hordes. Which is what we saw,, orks got a price bump, and so did cultists. Why guard didn't is baffling.


The horde is literally a reaction against knights, heck greentide literally was a reaction against it. Win via objective and swamp
Lists that have tailored against knights wont be able to wipe you since the have not the necessary volume of fire, and knights can't really wipe you if you just win via objectives.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Vaktathi don't you play the Death Korps anyway?

They already have 5 ppm Guardsmen and can't get +1 Str from Catachan or Straken support.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I genuinely can't believe the 4ppm Guardsmen debate still exists. I suppose that's GW balancing for you though.
Nobody is really talking about the 4ppm price tag. What started this kerfluffle over the past couple pages was the assertion that Guardsmen should be 7ppm, because they're all apparently always running around with S4 and A3 in every list all the time without support

 Bobthehero wrote:
Vaktathi don't you play the Death Korps anyway?

They already have 5 ppm Guardsmen and can't get +1 Str from Catachan or Straken support.
nor can they take heavy weapons in Infantry Squads and don't have FRFSRF at all.


My DKoK collection is actually almost entirely Grenadiers and was run as an Assault Brigade in previous editions and a Stormtrooper company before that, I havent used the FW rules much because the Index is really awkward for building that kind of army, particularly as I'd had it built with everyone in Chimeras I have a converted cadian force for normal codex lists using Pig Iron gasmask heads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:54:40


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Sluggaloo wrote:
Yeah sorry. Asmodeus's data shows that people willing to pick the best parts of guard (THE ABSURDLY CHEAP AND EFFECTIVE INFANTRY) + the best parts of other imperial books BEAT people who just stick to the AM codex when competing in tournaments which allow for soup. Do you see where that logic fails?


You can go two pages back and literally read the statement from Marmatag about guard beeing the best faction ever atm.


Yeah I wouldn't say that. Because mono faction tournaments aren't a thing, and therefore shouldn't be a metric for discussion.

Drukkari and Orks are also REALLY good.

However, 4ppm guardsman are too cheap and Marmatags argument regarding that guardsman are better at everything per point vs spacemarines is true.


Yes and no, guardsmen just profit from the fact that anti horde weaponry is not taken because you are forced to face down knights. Basically you have the knight that skews the lists to the point that they have to take every Ressource really to take the knight down. The counter for Chaos was literally to conga line cultists surounding abbadon or spamming psykers.
Eldar just solved their issue with soulbourst.


Agree,, that is part of the problem too.

However the fact that cheap horde is the largest beneficiary of the meta means it's an issue that should be adressed. Especially for the effective hordes. Which is what we saw,, orks got a price bump, and so did cultists. Why guard didn't is baffling.


The horde is literally a reaction against knights, heck greentide literally was a reaction against it. Win via objective and swamp
Lists that have tailored against knights wont be able to wipe you since the have not the necessary volume of fire, and knights can't really wipe you if you just win via objectives.


Any meta is a reactionary state of rock paper scissors. Horde is the king now. Knight's having a 3++ invuln is a dumb issue that will only be fixed when GW has sold enough Imperial Knights.

In the exact same way knights have made landraiders or baneblades obscolete, guardsmen have made tactical marines obsolete.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:49:11


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Vaktathi wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I genuinely can't believe the 4ppm Guardsmen debate still exists. I suppose that's GW balancing for you though.
Nobody is really talking about the 4ppm price tag. What started this kerfluffle over the past couple pages was the assertion that Guardsmen should be 7ppm, because they're all apparently always running around with S4 and A3 in every list all the time without support


With free hq!

Or negligible price Tag, or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any meta is a reactionary state of rock paper scissors. Horde is the king now. Knight's having a 3++ invuln is a dumb issue that will only be fixed when GW has sold enough Imperial Knights.

In the exact same way knights have made landraiders or baneblades obscolete, guardsmen have made tactical marines obsolete.
The fact that THE horde shooting list is also in the same faction as THE cheapest ultra melee hq and Knights certainly did not help the situation at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 23:51:55


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GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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The way I see it, on a battlefield, put 120 pts up against each other and who wins?
Ten marines, ten dire avengers, thirteen guardians with a scatter laser and thirty guardsmen. I'd say the other three are fairly well balanced, I'd probably say the guardians are the strongest choice of the others but guard easily beat the marines and avengers,the guardians are more of a match, able to use the scatter laser platform to outrange the guard and force them forward, giving the guardians the ability to get the first volley off plus the platform has a 3+ to tank but that's only two wounds.
Marines versus guardians is interesting, If the marines can keep it at 24" they can start to thin out the guardians since the scatter laser doesn't really scare marines much.
With frfsrf against protect if you want to bring in an hq protect is amazing on the platform giving a 2+ but the guard do get a lot of shots, especially within 12" where the guardians need to be, with the caveat that protect isn't guaranteed by any means.
Oh, this is all completely me judging by eye, obviously. I'm too lazy to math it out but if I was a betting man I know where my money's going.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/17 00:09:28


 
   
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Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Except which weapons actually kill more points of guardsmen than anything else in the game?


Normally small arms, massed small arms but you can't bring that to bear since you need to buy expensive AT equipment.

I'd like a weapon on a unit please as even lasguns kill more points of marines than guardsmen.


Marines are one of the few "elite" units that are more vulnerable to small arms than guardsmen. Hence why marines in general suck. Currently even Primaris are more durable per point than guardsmen against lasgun/boltgun

Just some math to prove my point:
Boltgun shooting Primaris and guardsmen (skip shooting and go straight to wounding):
- Primaris: 1*1/2*1/3=1/6 wounds = .17 W = .17*17/2= 1.42 pts lost
- Guard: 1*2/3*2/3= 4/9 W = 4/9*4 1.77 pts lost

So, a primaris marine is 25% more durable per point against boltguns than a guardsmen. It's not great, but that can be fixed with points. And the truth is that tact marines are way overcosted and guardsmen are undercosted. Iron that out (10 pt marines and 5 pt guard) and boltguns are easily anti-horde.

Doing the math again with 5 pt guard:
- Guard: 1*2/3*2/3= 4/9 W =4/9*5= 2.22 pts lost, which makes Primaris 50% more durable per point against boltguns. So there you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kingheff wrote:
The way I see it, on a battlefield, put 120 pts up against each other and who wins?
Ten marines, ten dire avengers, thirteen guardians with a scatter laser and thirty guardsmen. I'd say the other three are fairly well balanced, I'd probably say the guardians are the strongest choice of the others but guard easily beat the marines and avengers,the guardians are more of a match, able to use the scatter laser platform to outrange the guard and force them forward, giving the guardians the ability to get the first volley off plus the platform has a 3+ to tank but that's only two wounds.
Marines versus guardians is interesting, If the marines can keep it at 24" they can start to thin out the guardians since the scatter laser doesn't really scare marines much.
With frfsrf against protect if you want to bring in an hq protect is amazing on the platform giving a 2+ but the guard do get a lot of shots, especially within 12" where the guardians need to be, with the caveat that protect isn't guaranteed by any means.
Oh, this is all completely me judging by eye, obviously. I'm too lazy to math it out but if I was a betting man I know where my money's going.


Why did you give the guardians a support weapon but not give the guardsmen heavy weapons? or the marines for that matter? tbh though, marines, dire avengers and guardians are behind the power curve. When kabalites are 6 pts to the guardians 8pt... yeah.
Also, consider that the guardians have 12" guns, meaning that aside from the laser they are outranged. and the laser is only going to kill a couple guardsmen per turn (4*2/3*5/6*2/3= 1.5 kills). At 24" those 30 guardsmen will kill 30*1/2*1/2*2/3= 5 guardians per turn. Oh, and the guardsmen have way more wounds. Oh, and guardsmen can take 2 heavy bolters for the same price as 1 scatter laser. 6*1/2*2/3*5/6=1.66 kills.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/17 01:03:17


 
   
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Catachan + priest + straken + vigilus is so broken that you cannot have a discussion about guardsmen without it. Being able to fight after you die with 3 str 4 attacks for a couple CP and 4 points is insane. It's even crazier once you get units of 20-30 benefiting from it. Combined with ITC rules this unit can sit in a building and reliably kill 2-3x its points value reliably.

GW obviously has no idea how to create a balanced game and are either intentionally breaking units to sell them (knights) or have no idea what they are doing (primaris). There's enough examples of both to support either argument which is really weird.

End of the day the units we are complaining about are great because of strategem interactions of special rules, both of which SM should be trying to get (instead of point reductions). The problem is both of these things are going to be monetized like hell from GW and leave a bitter "pay to win" taste in my mouth at least.

And making bolt guns as efficient at killing guardsmen as marines doesn't help if it takes 2k points of bolt guns to kill 50 guardsmen. Marines are just too inefficient at killing hordes and things with invluns due to weapons designed and costed for previous editions. Las/melta/grav are all pretty useless this edition leaving plasma/storm bolters/A.Cs the only choices left but the bodies/vehicles that carry it are over costed/fragile/slow.
   
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I think some of you need a hobby other than beating the "Guardsmen should cost x" dead horse.

   
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ccs wrote:
I think some of you need a hobby other than beating the "Guardsmen should cost x" dead horse.



Everyone knows about it (and most seem to agree), yet it remains the same. It's a weird choice from Games Workshop for sure.
   
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Dandelion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Except which weapons actually kill more points of guardsmen than anything else in the game?


Normally small arms, massed small arms but you can't bring that to bear since you need to buy expensive AT equipment.

I'd like a weapon on a unit please as even lasguns kill more points of marines than guardsmen.


Marines are one of the few "elite" units that are more vulnerable to small arms than guardsmen. Hence why marines in general suck. Currently even Primaris are more durable per point than guardsmen against lasgun/boltgun

Just some math to prove my point:
Boltgun shooting Primaris and guardsmen (skip shooting and go straight to wounding):
- Primaris: 1*1/2*1/3=1/6 wounds = .17 W = .17*17/2= 1.42 pts lost
- Guard: 1*2/3*2/3= 4/9 W = 4/9*4 1.77 pts lost

So, a primaris marine is 25% more durable per point against boltguns than a guardsmen. It's not great, but that can be fixed with points. And the truth is that tact marines are way overcosted and guardsmen are undercosted. Iron that out (10 pt marines and 5 pt guard) and boltguns are easily anti-horde.

Doing the math again with 5 pt guard:
- Guard: 1*2/3*2/3= 4/9 W =4/9*5= 2.22 pts lost, which makes Primaris 50% more durable per point against boltguns. So there you go.

Except you had to go to intercessors who pay 8.5 points per T4 3+ wound to make the bolter better against guardsmen.

Which is inline with what I said a couple of pages ago in a world of 4ppm guardsmen old marines are worth 8 points probably less.

What this also doesn't allow for the fact you get 4 guardsmen for 1 intercessor at current points. So 4 wounds instead of 2 (double the durability) as a bonus you also get more firepower, board control and less vulnerability to multi damage weapons.

Hence why Guard Infantry are competitive and marines infantry isn't, always helped by to achieve a 90%+ improvement in firepower for a 38% points increase.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Except which weapons actually kill more points of guardsmen than anything else in the game?


Normally small arms, massed small arms but you can't bring that to bear since you need to buy expensive AT equipment.

I'd like a weapon on a unit please as even lasguns kill more points of marines than guardsmen.


Marines are one of the few "elite" units that are more vulnerable to small arms than guardsmen. Hence why marines in general suck. Currently even Primaris are more durable per point than guardsmen against lasgun/boltgun

Just some math to prove my point:
Boltgun shooting Primaris and guardsmen (skip shooting and go straight to wounding):
- Primaris: 1*1/2*1/3=1/6 wounds = .17 W = .17*17/2= 1.42 pts lost
- Guard: 1*2/3*2/3= 4/9 W = 4/9*4 1.77 pts lost

So, a primaris marine is 25% more durable per point against boltguns than a guardsmen. It's not great, but that can be fixed with points. And the truth is that tact marines are way overcosted and guardsmen are undercosted. Iron that out (10 pt marines and 5 pt guard) and boltguns are easily anti-horde.

Doing the math again with 5 pt guard:
- Guard: 1*2/3*2/3= 4/9 W =4/9*5= 2.22 pts lost, which makes Primaris 50% more durable per point against boltguns. So there you go.

Except you had to go to intercessors who pay 8.5 points per T4 3+ wound to make the bolter better against guardsmen.

Which is inline with what I said a couple of pages ago in a world of 4ppm guardsmen old marines are worth 8 points probably less.

What this also doesn't allow for the fact you get 4 guardsmen for 1 intercessor at current points. So 4 wounds instead of 2 (double the durability) as a bonus you also get more firepower, board control and less vulnerability to multi damage weapons.

Hence why Guard Infantry are competitive and marines infantry isn't, always helped by to achieve a 90%+ improvement in firepower for a 38% points increase.

a 3 ppm drop would allready help all old marines and any faction that uses them tbh.
F.e Raptors would now be 12ppm an acceptable price, regular 5 model CSM break now even for CP with min cultists, etc.

Edit: especially for regular CSM armies this would be interesting, since you now A, actually have a debate of HP over Armor, versatility vs horde builds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/17 10:00:32


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Marmatag wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I genuinely can't believe the 4ppm Guardsmen debate still exists. I suppose that's GW balancing for you though.


The lead designer is the imperial guard guy. That should tell you everything you need to know.

Meanwhile the space wolf designer was running around promising 2 point stormshields for thunderwolf cavalry. Hint: they're 10 points after CA.


LoL, this is pure kino. Does someone at the studio main eldar maybe?


In the exact same way knights have made landraiders or baneblades obscolete, guardsmen have made tactical marines obsolete.

before the knight codex came out, landraiders weren't being used either. baneblades were, they only got replaced by knights, because of how much efficient knights are not because baneblades were suddenly nerfed or got worse. A ravellan is just a better option for around the same points.

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Ice_can wrote:
Which is inline with what I said a couple of pages ago in a world of 4ppm guardsmen old marines are worth 8 points probably less.


Now I've stopped laughing and gotten up off the floor, I do have a serious question - if you're pricing a Tactical Marine at 8 points, where would you price a Stormtrooper?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Which is inline with what I said a couple of pages ago in a world of 4ppm guardsmen old marines are worth 8 points probably less.


Now I've stopped laughing and gotten up off the floor, I do have a serious question - if you're pricing a Tactical Marine at 8 points, where would you price a Stormtrooper?

The other option is to properly price guard at 5ppm and Catachans at 6ppm, in that world marines are still probably only 12 points maybe 11 but if 4ppm Guard aren't going anywhere all other infantry in the game is overcosted.

As stormtroopers no longer exsist in 40k at whatever you want in your home games.

Scions can go to 7 points each as deepstiking obsec plasma spam shouldn't be cheap.
   
 
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