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I would be okay with the addition of optional single model heavy weapons added to infantry squads... with those heavy weapons dudes being Ogryn!!

I know it's super unlikely... but I want me more ogryn!

Ogyrn with heavy weapons are a thing in the lore. There's specifically made heavy stubbers and autocannons for them. Called Ogryn Proof.

Would be nice if the heavy stubber was buffed to heavy 4 and made a weapon option for them. Autocannon simply made a weapon option for regular Ogryns too would be nice.

Though honestly. All that I expect GW to do with Ogryns is:

Ogryns:
- Statline no change.
- Gets 5+++ save for being really stupid and durable.
- Gets the new Bodyguard ability.
- Ripper Gun melee becomes +1S and 2 Damage.
- Add Big Knife to datasheet. Becomes AP-1, 2 damage, 1 additional attack.

Bullgryn:
- No statline change.
- Gets 5+++ like Ogyrn.
- Gets new Bodyguard ability.
- No change on shields and Grenadier Gauntlet, maybe point drop on Gauntlet armed ones.
- Maul becomes +3S and 3 damage.

Ogryn Bodyguard Removed.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Mordian Glory posted a vid about how he's literally seen pictures of the new kits, and the Sentinel is smaller (?) and that the Creed model doesn't look like creed, might not be Creed.

He also states the HWT is no longer two men per model, it's a single guy, so down to 1 wound?

Whhaaat ? I've heard the video of Mordian Glory, and there is no such thing. He has seen one or a few pictures, with a mix of units, on a table, some new stuff being recognizable. He describes the sentinel as " sleeker ", but not smaller. Unlike the current kit which has a lot of hard edges. The new kit looks more adeptus mechanicus styled, with a single vision slit instead of two. He compares it also to the mechs from the video game " Iron Harvest ". Creed will probably be replaced by his daughter (supposition). The heavy weapons teams are still there, so no one-man heavy weapon. But the weapons have been updated (belt fed beefy heavy bolter, and new autocannon).

Jarms48 wrote:
Ogyrn with heavy weapons are a thing in the lore. There's specifically made heavy stubbers and autocannons for them. Called Ogryn Proof.

Would be nice if the heavy stubber was buffed to heavy 4 and made a weapon option for them. Autocannon simply made a weapon option for regular Ogryns too would be nice.

Though honestly. All that I expect GW to do with Ogryns is:

Ogryns:
- Statline no change.
- Gets 5+++ save for being really stupid and durable.
- Gets the new Bodyguard ability.
- Ripper Gun melee becomes +1S and 2 Damage.
- Add Big Knife to datasheet. Becomes AP-1, 2 damage, 1 additional attack.

Bullgryn:
- No statline change.
- Gets 5+++ like Ogyrn.
- Gets new Bodyguard ability.
- No change on shields and Grenadier Gauntlet, maybe point drop on Gauntlet armed ones.
- Maul becomes +3S and 3 damage.

Ogryn Bodyguard Removed.

I would LOVE to see Ogryns able to equip heavy stubbers, or something akin to a heavy flamer. The Ripper is just, meh.

I don't think the changes to Bullgryns would EVER happen, at least not in this edition. You want them swinging S8 3 damage mauls?

I can see GW completely ignoring both, as heavy infantry don't really seem to be their focus. It's HWTs, Sentinels, a new Guard Squad, maybe a new Character or two, done. Face it, Guard are a fart of an afterthought in this edition.

I would like to see ogryns used in regular infantry squads. Carrying heavy weapons would be cool, but they could also be used as mobile cover. Give infantry squads the option to bring one ogryn with a slabshield for a nice 2+ save.

Might be a bit too much on regular infantry squds now that I reread it, but how about making them an option for veteran squads?

Bullgryns with slabshields have been released in 7th edition codex (well technically the very last 6th codex, a month before 7th) with this kind of weird mobile cover use. Slabshield only gave a meagre +1 save to the bullgryn, but also gave +1 to the cover save of units behind the bullgryn line (thus granting a 4+ cover instead of the regular 5+). But 8-9th editions does not have the rules to support cover mechanics.

Ooh I like the idea of Bullgryn counting as a cover for infantry behind them, even if it probably wouldn’t be very good

The problem with that is if you give that buff to Bullgryns, Ogryns then kinda become useless. Also, how does a Bullgryn provide cover, but not a Dreadnaught, or a Battle Suit, or greater demon? Or a Landraider? This is the point. We cannot "fix" guard without invalidating one of the core mechanics of 9th, which to me sounds fine. Break it, because 10th is less than 6 months away anyway.

But... if the bullgryn was part of the squad you could choose to take your saves (at 2+) on him first.
After he dies the squad reverts back to 5+ then.

Lkte mixed armour saves in a DW killteam or in squads with a couple of stormshields.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with that is if you give that buff to Bullgryns, Ogryns then kinda become useless.

You mean just like it is now? I can't honestly think of ever having seen regular Ogryn on a table even in casual play, but I've faced Bullgryn multiple times in all three editions I've played. Ogryn are one of those units that needs a complete rewrite; they are just complete cabbage currently.

Unfortunately, Ogryn have almost always been on the unoptimized side of the rules for IG. They always needed some sort of babysitter for Ld (or a Commissar to even go inside a Chimera back in the day), or a priest to buff them in CC. Their guns/CC were only okay back in older editions and they've progressively been outpaced by codex/weapon creep as the years have gone by. Bullgryn as a new unit was definitely an attempt to try and address this by adding new armour/weapons into the mix, but in doing so, as others have mentioned, it just relegated regular Ogryn into more of an aimless role as now they are just a cheaper but less effective version of Bullgryn.

Ogryn really need to be the hammer while Bullgryn are the anvil. With how much damage reduction there is on the table and now AoC, I'm not sure how Ogryn should be doing this while remaining fluffy (i.e. mortal wound spam based on charging/6's to hit maybe, but it would be weird to see). The Ripper Guns need to do more, I could see them being 12" and auto-hitting with flat 3 shots and -1AP.

I would be interested in seeing how a mixed unit would work, but you would need a fundamental rewrite of Ogryn regardless since they would add little to a squad besides being slightly cheaper ablative wounds.

I really don’t want random ogryn in squads aesthetically either, they’re passable when they’re a single squad by themselves but imo they just don’t mix with the guard aesthetic

Anyone want to discuss the Conscript Armies that have been getting to the top of tournaments? I'm not saying Guard are back on top, but If your entire faction' success is tied to a single unit, expect GW to take steps.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I don't think the changes to Bullgryns would EVER happen, at least not in this edition. You want them swinging S8 3 damage mauls?

AP-1 though. Very hard to actually do damage with them, but when they do should hit like a truck. I did mean to put S8 or D3. Not both though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone want to discuss the Conscript Armies that have been getting to the top of tournaments? I'm not saying Guard are back on top, but If your entire faction' success is tied to a single unit, expect GW to take steps.

Best result was the Dallas Open guy. Went 6 - 2 with them. I don't think he made it to the top tables though.

The whole conscript spam situation was bound to happen when they jacked up the Infantry Squad cost again. A 1PPM difference is massive for an army who's only option was already to spam infantry to even have a chance at winning. Just goes to show that free wargear did nothing to help us.

Sort of an inevitable result of the Hammer of the Emperor rule change.

If you only care about 6s to hit, BS doesn't matter. The strength of your weapons doesn't matter. All you need is more bullet.

Thing is, I think GW isn't going the Elite route with AM. I could see Ogryns getting a buff, maybe one of the things you can mix into a basic infantry squad? Give him the ability to tote a free Heavy Stubber or AC, I dunno, a Brag type thing. Takes up the space of a HWT. One or the other in a squad. Both are multi wound Heavy Weapons, but Bullgryns really serve no purpose. Your existing Elite Slots are already dedicated to far more valuable units like Command Squads, SWSs, and such. Make Ogryns into Troops, and give them the ability to mix into Infantry Squads. Bullgryns are maybe an upgrade option? Or Bone'ead?

I can't see GW choosing to mix Auxilia into infantry squads - right back from 2nd edition days when squads appeared (rather than buying model by model as per Rogue Trader), they have stood apart from each other - auxilia were never part of the platoon structure even. I suspect that without a clear way to upgrade Ogryn, they will occupy the same awkward light/midsize slot that a lot of tyranid warrior-size models have languished in for several editions. GW have finally hit on a way to make these midrange models work for Nids, but with Ogryn being such a niche unit among the "mooks and tanks" genre, I can't see enough of a build-around to make them work.

^ this.

The only Ogryn I can see foldered into a unit is the Command Squad. Basically remove the Ogryn Bodyguard as a datasheet (likely to happen anyway) and make it an additional model.

Since the release of Bullgryns in the late-6th edition codex, Ogryns have lost their status of rare guard unit capable of melee. Unlike Bullgryns, they can do both melee and shooting, but their shooting value is even weaker than their melee value. I can get that Ogryns are too stupid to aim precisely for long range shots, but come on, not 12" no... So the sooting value is plagued by its ridiculoulsy short range, as well as weak damage profile. I mean, look at these ripper guns, from the plastic kit as well as the 5th edition metals. This is a massive gun, with enormous ammo packs, firing some big caliber rounds. They are very similar to heavy bolter, or even bigger, yet the weapon profile is absolutely not relfecting that. This is what I feel the weapon profile should look like :

Ripper gun : range 18" | assault 3 | strength 5 | AP-1 | damage 2.

With a similar to HB gun with lower range, they could at least inflict some damage while advancing, then finish a weakened squad with their bayonets !

I dig it! I've always thought that they should be something in the "tons of shots, no real AP" category myself.

I'd say something like:

range 18'' , pistol 6, str 4, ap 0, d1

But, really, I'd be happy if ogryn of all kinds were expanded, made more relevant, etc. I think it would be amazing if you could eventually field an entire army of abhumans (and not be so massively non-competitive that you have no real chance for winning).

The first iteration of the ripper gun had a pretty short range, but with the advantage that at even closer range, it hit automatically (long before other auto hit weapons became a thing). It has never been a strong gun, it is more an over-powered shotgun than anything - and of course in the fluff, equipped with a burst limiter to stuff the Ogryn firing it all off at once. All of this contributes to it having poor lethality in an edition of the game where everything is either super killy or never seen. Ogryn have always been a bit of a comedy unit unfortunately, and it shows

If the Ripper is indeed just a Combat Shotgun that had sex with Barry Bonds, then make it's profile reflect that.

12" Assault 3 S5 AP2 D1.

Inside of half range: Assault 3 S6 AP4 D2.

In Melee: Pistol 3 S7 AP5 D3.

I'm happy with Ogryn - they are 10 points cheaper than Bullgryn after all. They would be better at 20pts a model as they stand, or just make the gun a bit better, as mentioned. Both units probably need to be T6 too, 'cos i reckon they are tougher than orks. Hell, how about a 6+ FNP called 'Too dumb to die' ?

leerm02 wrote:
I dig it! I've always thought that they should be something in the "tons of shots, no real AP" category myself.

I'd say something like:

range 18'' , pistol 6, str 4, ap 0, d1

But, really, I'd be happy if ogryn of all kinds were expanded, made more relevant, etc. I think it would be amazing if you could eventually field an entire army of abhumans (and not be so massively non-competitive that you have no real chance for winning).

I'd probably default to making them flak cannon analogues. Making them pistols would go a long way too.

I'm anticipating that my army is pretty meh these days, but I'm blowing the dust off an old project and 'm wondering what to get to complement y existing army:

1 x Company Commander
1 x Lord Commissar
3 x infantry squad (4 vox casters, 1 grenade launcher, 1 plasmagun, 1 flamer, 3 meltaguns, and a mortar team to mix in here)
1 x Command squad (H. Flamer, Medikit, vox, plasmagun)
1 x ministorum priest
1 x techpriest enginseer
1 x Basilisk
1 x leman russ (battlecannon model)
2 x valkyrie
1 x hydra

i can make around 1500 points out of this, but want more flexibility. Any recommendations for expanding this army to make it more viable? Most common enemy is Orks.

I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

My take is that it's hard to tell before the book drops (or, more accurately, gets leaked).

For what it's worth, personally, I always run chimera, but then again I also always lose lol. TBH, the main reason I run chimeras is down to that's what I used in 5th edition (last edition I played before picking 40k back up in 9th) and I'm not big on how tauroxes look.

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

I'd wait until the book drops honestly. Currently we know too little about potential changes to Tauroxes and Chimeras.

 some bloke wrote:
I'm anticipating that my army is pretty meh these days, but I'm blowing the dust off an old project and 'm wondering what to get to complement y existing army:

1 x Company Commander
1 x Lord Commissar
3 x infantry squad (4 vox casters, 1 grenade launcher, 1 plasmagun, 1 flamer, 3 meltaguns, and a mortar team to mix in here)
1 x Command squad (H. Flamer, Medikit, vox, plasmagun)
1 x ministorum priest
1 x techpriest enginseer
1 x Basilisk
1 x leman russ (battlecannon model)
2 x valkyrie
1 x hydra

i can make around 1500 points out of this, but want more flexibility. Any recommendations for expanding this army to make it more viable? Most common enemy is Orks.

Sorry no one else has answered yet. Guard is hurting right now so we're all on standby until our codex comes out.

More Infantry Squads for sure. 3 is too little. 6+ minimum, bit I'd lean closer to 10+ for 2k games.
"Dress them to the 9's" is I think how the saying goes; our equipment for Infantry Squads is free now, so load them up with a Mortar or Lascannon, a Vox, some kind of Special Weapon (Plasma's a good all-rounder), and either a Bolter or a Plasma Pistol and Sword on the Sergeant.

If you can find/get them, 2 Manticores, each with the Full Payload Tank Ace Trait, are still good vs orks.

I'd be tempted to bring several Leman Russ Punishers to put a ton of shots down onto the basic Boyz, but Demolishers will make quick work of vehicles and special units.

I'd say Bullgryns, but they've failed me the last few times I brought them. Whiffed both their attacks and their 3+ invulns (4+ boosted from Astropath).

 MinscS2 wrote:

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

I'd wait until the book drops honestly. Currently we know too little about potential changes to Tauroxes and Chimeras.

Yeah that is probably the right answer...thanks!