40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Charax**

This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

**Liberal_Perturabo**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.

Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.

I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!

Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?

Cawl now essentially gives everybody within 6 a reroll in shooting, so I suspect the new meta is going to be servitors spam around him. Also cantellans, because MCs were clearly underpowered in 7th edition.

**Youn**

There is a three detachment limit in Matched Play. I guess it's just a matter of figuring out how to use my terminators as non-death guard. Sadly, I paid the extra to have them with the Forgeworld resin shoulders, bodies and heads.

Had I done this with just the base models, this would be much easier to fix.

**CthuluIsSpy**

theharrower wrote:

I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?

The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.

Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.

I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!

Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?

Cawl now essentially gives everybody within 6 a reroll in shooting, so I suspect the new meta is going to be servitors spam around him. Also cantellans, because MCs were clearly underpowered in 7th edition.

Well, provided you run Mars. I happen to play Metalica, so... no Cawl for me? I wonder how long the wait will be for Codices with the special rules needed to get some flavor back in the armies.

**macluvin**

Raikoh wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
Raikoh wrote:
Ok, am I missing something???

Tau plasma guns vs imperial plasma guns.
Neither get hot.
Tau is S6... imperium is S7. Imperium has the added flexibility of being able to overcharge it.
....Imperium plasma costs less.

Is it just me or did the Tau just get shafted?

Think that's bad, look at what they did to poor old Ork Burnas! D3 shots instead of the D6 everyone gets, and you roll once for the whole unit.

But they are cheap as hell, and come in huge numbers.

These plasmas cost MORE and are simply worse at the same time. I know Space Marines have to be the best at everything and gave all the best toys... but this is just getting rediculous.

How is the platform though? It might be a balancing act. Back in 7th edition the ammount of S7 dakka you could bring was rediculous not only because of the relative cheapness but the platform, ie the crisis suits coming in at 22 pts for a 2w model that can take up to 3 each, or the marine squad that costs 13 pts a model that takes 1 on 5 models. To be fair most people took the missiles over plasma anyways.

**Therion**

xttz wrote:
Therion wrote:
A Razorback with twin assault cannon is 100 points.

T7 10 wounds 3+ save. So a T7 3+ save wound costs 10 points a pop. And it comes with a gun that shoots 12 times S6 AP1

Yeah boiiii...

FWIW, a Carnifex isn't too far off. T7 W8, can do 12 S6 AP0 shots or 12 S7 AP1 shots, way better in combat and slightly cheaper.

That's pretty good. Tyranids might be the next big thing. Razorbacks and Marines vs Carnifexes and Gaunts. A fight for the ages.

**Liberal_Perturabo**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
Oh great, my AdMech army just got gutted for the most part. Thanks GW.
Rangers and vanguard received a huge nerf with massive leadership reduction and no longer being able to shield them with Dominus or Cawl. Not to mention that AP4 galvanic rifles now only get a whopping -1 AP on 6s to wound, while scout sniper rifles throw out mortal wounds.
Doctrina imperatives are no more, while canticles got reduced in power.
Ruststalkers and infiltrators did get a cost reduction, while having most of their neat special rules removed, which was the very point of taking them.
Servitors did get +1 wound, but got significantly more expencive. Not to mention that heavy arc rifle is now some sick joke of a weapon, wounding most of the vehicles on 5+, while torsion cannon is just a worse version of multimelta. So much for technological superiority I guess.
The only units that received a clear buff are the units that were fine in the first place - techpriest dominus, dunecrawlers and a certain unit of extremely ugly robots.
There is one exeption though. Ironstriders and dragoons are now viable. That was a good change.

Right? It is like they heard people complain about the WarConvo, but didn't realize it was literally only the formation that was the issue, not the army or its rules.

I am hopeful that when we get a proper Codex, with whatever <FORGE WORLD> options are included, it gives us a bit more. I still love the army, because the models are gorgeous, but sheesh we took a nerfbat!

Also, looking through everything - what didn't go up in price for most folks? Seems like everything got real expensive now. Is the game going to stay at 1850-2000 with less on the table or go up to 2250-2500 to accommodate the price hikes?

Cawl now essentially gives everybody within 6 a reroll in shooting, so I suspect the new meta is going to be servitors spam around him. Also cantellans, because MCs were clearly underpowered in 7th edition.

Well, provided you run Mars. I happen to play Metalica, so... no Cawl for me? I wonder how long the wait will be for Codices with the special rules needed to get some flavor back in the armies.

Yeah, you just get reroll 1s for techpriest dominus. So, unless other forgewords get something extremely good you are basically forced to run Mars.

**Eyjio**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
theharrower wrote:

I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?

The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.

Right, gauss hasn't changed that much (actually, it's arguably quite a bit better), but vehicles have gotten MUCH more durable overnight. Consequently, where a wound on a tank may have been a third of it's health before, it's now more like a tenth, if that. That's the real issue Necrons have - very few multi-damage guns.

**mortar_crew**

Well, well, well , so no tankbusta bombs for the kommandos.
They cannot mix weapons either, which boyz can now do.

I cannot say I am impressed with their entry evolution in 8th:
same overpriced stuff!

**Twoshoes23**

In the interest of cutting down tears, I feel like this should be said in caps, so maybe a MOD could put this out there but...

These indexes are baseline rules so that EVERYONE starts out relatively on the same page. This doesn't mean your current loadouts are not going to get rules in the future, as they most likely will in some form when your respective CODEX comes out. You just may have to wait. As a Sister of Battle player, you have my condolonces. And as a Sister of Battle Player, im as happy as a clam btw

**Cephalobeard**

Roll with me here, guys.

Burning Chariot says you can take 3 blue horrors as wargear. Now, taking wounds where I see them, could I apply the wounds to the blue horrors first? Could I then, following the rules of split, turn them into brimstone horrors that join the unit?

I don't see "three blue horrors" listed as wargear anywhere, which is why I'm curious and following this line of thinking.

**theharrower**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
theharrower wrote:

I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?

The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.

Vehicles in 7th didn't have armor saves and the wounds on vehicles now are a lot higher than they were. Gauss is no way the answer. That's like trying to say Guard need to deal with Land Raiders by using lasguns.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

Charax wrote:
This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

Want fanbase testing? Get fanbase testing. Or a small particular niche aspect of the fanbase that shouts louder than most.

**str00dles1**

Charax wrote:
This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

**CthuluIsSpy**

theharrower wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
theharrower wrote:

I'm on about how gauss sucks. What are Necrons supposed to do against vehicles and large models?

The same as they always have done? Everything wounds on 6 now, and with the higher than average ap modifier necrons have a greater chance of making sure that damage gets through.

Vehicles in 7th didn't have armor saves and the wounds on vehicles now are a lot higher than they were. Gauss is no way the answer. That's like trying to say Guard need to deal with Land Raiders by using lasguns.

...which is why they have an armor save modifier on their basic weapons.
Necrons are still the race who can deal the most amount of damage to vehicles with their basic guns. Nothing has changed.
It is true though that vehicles are a lot tougher now, so they can't rely exclusively on small arms gauss. Which is why gauss cannons now deal D3 damage.

**Vorian**

str00dles1 wrote:
Charax wrote:
This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

This really obvious thing is going to be said about 1,000 times a day for the next month isn't it?

**Daedalus81**

Therion wrote:

Personally I think the points are a bit off. Some units are wildly expensive. A Wraithknight comes in at 502 points for 24 T8 3+ wounds. Yet for 500 points you can take 5 Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, for 50 T7 3+ wounds. Sure, the Wraithknight shoots 4 times with his mega lascannons, but the Razorbacks shoot 60 times with S6 guns and are twice as durable AND can move other guys around. I'm just not seeing what the 500+ price point is supposed to be buying. No special close combat rules, no feel no pain or other fancy rules. Just a 500+ point guy with 4 lascannons and a couple 'power fist' attacks.

The problem is you're viewing it from just one angle.

The wraithknight can fight well in combat. A single round of shooting can easily take out a razorback. A full round from all those razorbacks will not kill a wraithknight.

**Charax**

str00dles1 wrote:
Charax wrote:
This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

I'm making conclusions based on the information in front of us, the actual black and white rules that are being published, not what might happen based on what happened in a different game system

Even IF you were correct, that's even worse, because they'll have to cycle through all the different faction codices before everyone is up to par

**RoboDragon**

Wait are dire avengers 17 points per model now or 10? You pay 7 points for avenger catapult?? I must be mistaken

**Ghaz**

And now for something completely different...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/31/new-warhammer-40000-warzone-ultramar-may31gw-homepage-post-4/

Warzone: Ultramar.

**Jacob29**

RoboDragon wrote:
Wait are dire avengers 17 points per model now or 10? You pay 7 points for avenger catapult?? I must be mistaken

Yes 17 pts a model.

Outrageous!

**lord_blackfang**

So, these ITC fellas... I am guessing they all play gunlines on boards with zero terrain besides the bunkers they bring? Because that is clearly the only functional playstyle these rules support.

**Cilithan**

Having scanned the rules a bit, I'm still most confused about the keywords. Keywords like Bike, Cavalry, Fly, Vehicle etc. aren't defined anywhere. Not in the Rulesbook we've seen thusfar and not in the Faction books. Am I missing something? Or are these concepts not explained beyond some mention in the movement (Fly) and terrain parts of the rules?

Cilithan

**str00dles1**

Charax wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
Charax wrote:
This is what I feared when they said the ITC were involved in 8e playtesting.

Wholesale gutting of options (The boxed set Nurgle models don't have ANY options for ANYTHING)

Mark of Chaos does nothing whatsoever (so no more T5 Relentless Havoks, we just get T4 havoks that are identical to every other Chaos Havok)

No Relics

No flavour

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

I'm making conclusions based on the information in front of us, the actual black and white rules that are being published, not what might happen based on what happened in a different game system

Even IF you were correct, that's even worse, because they'll have to cycle through all the different faction codices before everyone is up to par

This isn't some guess. They said they were doing this. They also stated that each year points are being adjusted based on feedback. For most of the core, its the same game system. So don't believe me if you don't want to, but its a fact.

**DarkStarSabre**

Ghaz wrote:
And now for something completely different...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/31/new-warhammer-40000-warzone-ultramar-may31gw-homepage-post-4/

Warzone: Ultramar.

I swear to god, the first image in that article looked eerily familiar.

**jeff white**

OK so how does the deff rolla work with no strength listed for the battlewagon?

**Latro_**

Quite funny now you can take cypher and a unit of fallen in a dark angels army XD hahahah

**Anon052**

str00dles1 wrote:

Before you make ill-informed conclusions, you should look at what is going on with Age of Sigmar.

They released the books so everyone had points and options, then they released Battletomes AKA codexes with more fluff, and many more ways to customize your army.

This will happen with 8th. First will be Primaris Book then Nurgle, then whatever else they feel like doing. (Id guess Khorne as they love Khorne) Each will add relics, options, special rules, special psychic powers, etc.

Problem with that is it will take years until all books are released, so a few armies will be lackluster as hell whereas armies with books will have lot of options. And I'm not even sure all armies will get books. Could be that some armies like Dark Eldar will be splitted and only get small subfaction books increasing even more the the time it will take to release all codices.

**ListenToMeWarriors**

I think the indexes are a useful stopgap for further play testing and player feedback, sadly the drawback is that those armies that get new codex's last will be quite bland and eventually fall way behind in terms of effectiveness. Given the amount of armies and factions we are probably looking at a good few years before everyone gets the full codex treatment.