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How on earth have I never discovered this brand before?! Considering I lived about 10 mins from Mierce's hometown for the best part of 30 years...

Some great stuff, will certainly look into them for the future.

Does Mierce have a store at their HQ?

Would be great to be able to buy stuff 'in person' - delivery time would be almost nil!

The new Werwulfas look really nice... which means I'm in for the kickstarter.

Suppose this is another "This thread cost me money" post.

 Alpharius wrote:
Does Mierce have a store at their HQ?

Would be great to be able to buy stuff 'in person' - delivery time would be almost nil!

I think they mentioned being open to the idea of letting people drop by on appointment. Not sure if that's still good though. If they have a physical store that's certainly news to me

this just popped up on facebook









Nemesis Art Studio by Bob Plociennik

11 mins ·
...
In a little more than an hour we (me and Ryan Kingslien) will start a short (~an hour) webinar regarding sculpting miniatures:
https://app.gotomeeting.com/?meetingId=209730821
Feel free to come and hang out with us if you are interested in how the sculpting looks backstage smile emoticon I will be showing some cool Mierce Miniatures' models and how they came to be, as well as answering some of your questions.


not sure if this service archives content or if it's live only but if you're around take a look

stretches for the KS

£6500





This stretch goal will of course result in a digital resculpt of the existing Annik miniatures by Bob Płociennik, along with a couple of new versions to boot! Along with the original Annik of Carn Wrach on foot and on horse there's also the lovely Bow-Annik on foot and on horse and of course the amazing Sairen-Annik on foot and on horse...


at 7500



This stretch goal will of course result in a digital resculpt of the existing Leofwen miniatures by Bob Płociennik, along with a couple of new versions to boot. The original Leofwen, Fane-Bearer of Dēra on foot and on Great Hart are shown on the image, as well as the archer version on foot; but we're also going to add the archer version on Great Hart and a new foot and mounted sword and shield version of Leofwen, too (art for which we don't have, but which we're sure you can imagine).

and for after the KS has actually funded (at £10,000) we have at £12.500



This host will of course include the Wælwulf unit resculpted for the £10,000 stretch goal, Wulfric's Pack, which comes with all three weapon options for them - claws, great claws and sword and claw. Cearl, the Wælwulf Thegn that leads the host, will be digitally resculpted by Bob Plociennik and will also include the same three weapon options. To give the host a bit of punch there's Creoda, too, a mighty Guthwulf well able to tear the enemy to pieces!

(it's a shame these are being resculpted as I like them as they are, but I guess getting the extra weapon options done by a traditional sculptor would be more expensive than having Bob redo the whole lot now he's on the payroll)

Some stuff...

Hror WIPs:





Trugg WIPs:




Still holding out hope for an Aalvór resculpt!

Trugg doesn't look familiar, but looks like he's a Ysian brute.

Is that a resculpt of one of the older ones?

No he's one of the brute beasts, bigger badder brutes on 80mm bases

 skullking wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Now that you mention concept art, we haven't seen much out of Danny Cruz for a while either. I always liked his stuff.

Yeah, I agree. I love Roberto's work for sure, but Danny was what I really consider to be the art style that shaped the Darklands line.

Yep, Mierce seemed t have dropped some very good sculptors recently.
I was in conversation with Roberto, he was not treated well by Mierce, according to him, tehy jsut pulled sculpts from him.
I queried Rob, he said "well, he is expensive"
Umm, so are Mierce Minis, we pay top dollar for quality.

However, my concern is that this Kickstarter is a symptom of an underlying problem.

After his boardgame KS failure last year, and the promise of "no more kickstarters for a long time" we immedaitely got another little kickstarter.
Now we have this one...a scant month later...WTF is going on why are these minis so damned important we need more and mroe kcikstarters, each one pushes out the completion date further and further, they are nearly a year overdue already.

Given the obvious fact that these minis won't be produced for at least 6 months, why not wait until then to launch the kickstarter? The delivery date wo't change?
...what's the advantage of getting digital sculpts completed now.

Why, was Bob asked to do new scukpts, instead of working through the considerable backlog of stuff stretching as far as Savage Hordes?
Was this wolf resculp urgent?
What's the urgency., close out a few of the long long outstanding old Kickstarters first...

My fear is that Mierce is using these kickstarters to pay the bills...

IF Mierce are using kickstarters to pay for the day to day operating costs of the business, that is VERY BAD NEWS.

Most of the money from each kickstarter should be banked to pay for the production of mins paid for IN THAT KICKSTARTER...NOT to pay wages and rent now.

That's a catastrophe waiting to happen...they are basically putting off debt into the future, and each new kickstarter adds to that...if THIS kickstarter is paying the bills, what will pay for the production costs of the minis? Another kickstarter later on...?

That is my underlying concern, it's not "Where are my minis" it's "is the company using kickstarters to run day to day?"

Rob shows the rabid fanbase some shiny new minis fresh off Bob's PC, and they throw cash at him, never mindng that these minis won't see the light of day for at least a year.

Bob doing these NOW tells me Rob needs this kickstarter to keep the lights on.

That's not good.

I queried him in the comments, and his response didn't alleviate my concerns.

Thoughts?

One logistical question regarding the digital sculpts - has Mierce brought 3D printing in-house? If not, the printing backlog is being added to pretty rapidly with all the digital sculpts they're producing, and that has its own challenges and costs associated with it, separate from the molding/casting queue.

I obviously love a lot of Mierce's traditionally sculpted stuff, since I have tons of it but for some things, the digital really is fantastic - the Jutes in particular! For these wolves, I'm not sure yet - would love to see a print or cast to get a better feel for how they'll look on the table. But that's true of basically any company showing a miniature render (which seems to be most of them now ) of course!

I know they were planning on getting a 3D printer in house - and I *think* that they've purchased one or were about to purchase one or recently purchased one...

...so one will be in house soon.

I think?

yxalitis wrote:

 skullking wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Now that you mention concept art, we haven't seen much out of Danny Cruz for a while either. I always liked his stuff.

Yeah, I agree. I love Roberto's work for sure, but Danny was what I really consider to be the art style that shaped the Darklands line.

Yep, Mierce seemed t have dropped some very good sculptors recently.

I don't think anyone was dropped, they just have an in house sculptor for a lot of the stuff they're doing now. So they can more cost effectively get through that backlog of figures. There's nothing stopping them from using any of the old sculptors again, unless they work for someone else (like Aragorn).
I was in conversation with Roberto, he was not treated well by Mierce, according to him, tehy jsut pulled sculpts from him.
I queried Rob, he said "well, he is expensive"
Umm, so are Mierce Minis, we pay top dollar for quality.
So... Rob asked if he could do them cheaper, Roberto declined. So Rob found another way, that was cheaper. #runningabusiness

However, my concern is that this Kickstarter is a symptom of an underlying problem.

After his boardgame KS failure last year, and the promise of "no more kickstarters for a long time" we immedaitely got another little kickstarter A month later.
Now we have this one...a scant month later four months later...WTF is going on why are these minis so damned important we need more and mroe kcikstarters, each one pushes out the completion date further and further, they are nearly a year overdue already.

Given the obvious fact that these minis won't be produced for at least 6 months, why not wait until then to launch the kickstarter? The delivery date wo't change?
...what's the advantage of getting digital sculpts completed now. Can't say I've ever had a miniatures kickstarter send out stuff in less than six months, even when they have everything sculpted, and in house molding. Don't know that I've ever heard of one doing it either, but, I could be wrong.

Why, was Bob asked to do new scukpts, instead of working through the considerable backlog of stuff stretching as far as Savage Hordes? The archer wolves were in line to be done next, they're from one of the first SH KS. Rob (and a lot of other people} didn't like the original sculpts, so instead of hiring someone to just modify those, as was planned, Rob just had Bob resculpt the lot. And since they were being worked on, he had Bob do a few more weapon variations.
Was this wolf resculp urgent?
What's the urgency., close out a few of the long long outstanding old Kickstarters first...
I don't think they HAD to be fully resculpted, but the figures were 'urgently' needing to be done. So, it's kind of one of both there.

My fear is that Mierce is using these kickstarters to pay the bills...
They have said that they are a 'Kickstarter company' many times over the years.
IF Mierce are using kickstarters to pay for the day to day operating costs of the business, that is VERY BAD NEWS.

Most of the money from each kickstarter should be banked to pay for the production of mins paid for IN THAT KICKSTARTER...NOT to pay wages and rent now.
So how SHOULD they pay the employee wages? Not trying to sound mocking by asking, I am curious what alternate means of getting money you believe they should follow. They have lots of sales, and have added at least 100 new models to their online retail store in the last year. They go to cons to sell figures, they hold tournaments. Tim (a payroll employee/company head) even does conversions which are sold in the shop, and, are timed well with what is popular in other game systems (in fact, all I'm getting in this current KS is stuff I didn't get in previous ones, and some of Tim's new blight figs (which look awesome!)). What else is there?
That's a catastrophe waiting to happen...they are basically putting off debt into the future, and each new kickstarter adds to that...if THIS kickstarter is paying the bills, what will pay for the production costs of the minis? Another kickstarter later on...?
With every KS, they add new models to the 'to do' list, and then eventually when they're sculpted, they go into the store, and other people (non KS backers) can buy them.
That is my underlying concern, it's not "Where are my minis" it's "is the company using kickstarters to run day to day?"

Rob shows the rabid fanbase some shiny new minis fresh off Bob's PC, and they throw cash at him, never mindng that these minis won't see the light of day for at least a year.
He showed us the new sculpts which Bob had already done, and showed very old concepts of some of the original figures he wanted to have redone. He never said that any of these resculpts would precede anything else which had already been funded. Also, I think you've contributed to enough Mierce KS to be considered part of that 'Rabid' fanbase, so don't play it off like you're new to the whole thing.
Bob doing these NOW tells me Rob needs this kickstarter to keep the lights on.
They need those lights to work!
That's not good.
I don't understand why Rob trying to pay his employees & bills is such a horrible thing to you.

I queried him in the comments, and his response didn't alleviate my concerns.

Mierce Miniatures 19-time creator about 9 hours ago
@Yx - people are sculpting them, as you can see from the past few months.

Bob's done Hror simply because it fits with the new Werwulfas and because I wanted him to do it. He's doing Thurgis next, then he's finishing off the Savage Hordes stuff with the Holumenn and Gorgóraxo, and then he's starting on SH2 stuff. The odd character inbetween the big units is not much of a strain on his time and in any case, certainly with Annik, it helps with SH3.

I have said all this before and you're being disingenuous by saying I'm brushing you off - the information is already out there so there seemed little point in repeating it.

I'll say it again, you need to calm down, and you need to stop being so negative. It doesn't help anything.

Thoughts?

Prayers

Skullking, (I won't quote that huge post again...)

If you don't understanfd basic busines, let me explain.

Running a business using a kickstarter NOW to pay the bills, keeps the loghts on, means that money is consumed.
The £10,000 or whatever, is gone, used to pay wages, rent, bills etc.

But when we pledge for XXX and YYY minis with our money NOW, we expect that money to be used for that purpose.

So in 6 months time, what money is there to fund the production of the minins we paid for?

Answer....none, it was spent 6 months ago.

Unless Mierce is selling a buttfuck olf minis outside their Kickstarters, which from the number of deeply discouted Mierce mins I've seen on 3rd party sellers, sites, isn't happening, they are having to run another kickstarter, to fund the production of minis from a previous kickstarter.

This result in a debt spiral, as each time they do this they are putting off the debt by more and more.

It's like a Ponzi scheme (only not deliberate fraud, let me make that clear)

So what happens if one of those KS fails?

Oops, suddenly Mierce have no money to both produce mins, and maintain the business.

Result: Mierce ceases trading, all outstanding orders are lost.

No to be very clear I am NOT saying this is the case 100%, but it sure seems that way.

And in case you weren't aware, this has already happened to the major players behind Mierce, when Maelstrom games folded.

http://ttfix.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/maelstrom-games-banelegion-blood-maw.html
Look familiar?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/11/retailing-maelstrom-games-down-and-out.html
Sound familair?

So, whilst I admire your enthusiastic support of Mierce minis, I am merely expressing a concern regarding their underlying financial health.

Mierce is seemingly a company that is running on the backs a few hundred very loyal supporters.

This does not a good business make.

So is there any news about the board game coming back?

I think both @yxalitis and @skullking raises fair points.

It would be a concern if Mierce were using the money from each current kickstarter as a way to pay for overdue rents, wages, debts, etc. because, just like @yxalitis writes, when the money from kickstarter stops coming, every non-fulfilled project will risk failure. This can't really be argued with. However, are we certain that it will happen? Of course not. Maybe online sales pick up instead, perhaps they've by then generated enough interest for their wargame that it will be self-sustaining, perhaps Rob and Tim takes out a bankloan to see it through. What will happen in the future that is to come is of course impossible to say. Another flaw in @yxalitis post is that we do not know the financial plan of Mierce, and how they in fact are using their funds. It could be so that they use 50% from the kickstarter to pay wages/debts/etc. and 50% is put into the bank as a reserve to keep them going just in case the kickstarter-hype would fade away. Perhaps they are even using only 20%. We don't know.

Of course it make sense to use lower costs for a business if they can. For example, say that one sculptor's rates are higher than someone elses, it is fair to think that the one with the lower rates win out, just like @skullking points out. It is a business and this is usually how they work. However, one cannot simply look at the short end result. Also, as @yxalitis mentions, if one pays for a high-end product, one is to expect the quality to represent the cost. Some sculptors, Roberto Chaudon in particular (my own very personal opinion) is an incredible talented sculptor and has sculpted some of the very best miniatures for the entire range. I believe it is a fair point to say that some people will buy miniatures just because they were sculpted by him. Replacing one sculptor with another who has lower rates doesn't neccessarily mean that the profit of margin increases in the long run. Maybe the sales go down because people cant find their favorite sculptor in the range anymore, maybe people compare the old work with the new and find it not living up to the same standards, etc. Of course, again, we do not know because we do not have the numbers. Only Mierce do. But needless to say, using an in-house sculptor will greatly reduce the costs in the long run. It's just a matter of hoping that the customers do not find it to be a drop in quality. Again, we don't know because we cant see the sales numbers, or what figures are most popular, etc.

I also agree with @yxalitis in regards of were the werewolves needed to be resculpted instead of pushing out new figures that people pledged for a long time ago. Personally, I would probably approach it with a different route and try to complete new, outstanding ones, before readdressing old ones. Again, reasons to this are unknown. I hope there are others than Mierce simply "felt like it". Because that does not make sense as a business. Again, we don't know the underlying reasons. From my perspective, this is probably a poor business decision for the "long run". I would rather keep the customers happy by showing progress elsewhere. However, who knows, perhaps Mierce has identified a need/desire in the industry and thought they could fill that gap by pushing out those redesigned werewolves. Then it would, instead, be good for the business.

@Skullking: There are a lot of miniature kickstarters that do not delay 6+ months with shipping out the products. I could drop 10 projects on the top of my head right here and now, but I won't since this thread is dedicated to Mierce. But telling the truth, after running one kickstarter, one should have got the grasp and understanding of productiontime and should be able to form a correct estimated delivery time. However, would people back a project if they saw that the ETA was 18 months from now? Most likely some people would turn it down simply because of that. Would they, on the other hand, back the same project with a listed ETA in 6 months? If you believe yes on the second question, why list the "true and accurate" one? This is running a business, after all, which is about making money. Delays, in many cases, are not delays, but a part of the actual production time, only that the creators, from a busness point of view, decided to give the wrong ETA to attract more attention to it. It is as simple as that. Of course delays still occur, but as much as it happens in Kickstarter, one got to think more than "oh, it was unforseen".

Pretty much this...
I of course have zero knowledge of Mierce finances.
This Kickstarter came out of nowhere, why the urgent need for resculpts?
If this had been: "Hey guys, we have a big backlog of 3D stuff we need to print, help us fund a printer to help out" I'd have been reassured that they were aware of the increasing delays, and acting to remediate.

Instead we got; "ooh, look, shiny new things, give us some money to fund them" despite the fact that with the current backlog, they aren't seeing the light of day for a long time.
I mean, without a printer, how are these getting competed?
Remember, they hired Bob, a 3D artist, full time, with no plan as to what you do with his output?
I mean, you hire a 3D artist, you plan a 3D printer purchase to produce the work, right?

yxalitis wrote:
...which from the number of deeply discouted Mierce mins I've seen on 3rd party sellers, sites...

Where are these places? I've never found Mierce models in the UK for better than 10% off RRP, and with shipping they usually end up the same price as ordering direct from Mierce.

I don't post on dakka very often any more, but thought this would be worth saying.

Mierce is a UK company. If your worried about there financial status... you can check.

I wouldn't back a Kickstarter by them currently put it that way

I have supported a number of mierce miniature Kickstarters but and I do like there figures, generally I have found the team to be very good not rising to comments, but putting professional reply’s back. However I didn’t like the way they responded toyxalitis at all putting in that he was doing there head in has put me off backing, also he asked some questions and there response was along the lines of read throutthe hundreds of comments it’s in there. Well who has time for that if they need to repeat stuff so be it

 Gomezaddams wrote:
I don't post on dakka very often any more, but thought this would be worth saying.

Mierce is a UK company. If your worried about there financial status... you can check.

I wouldn't back a Kickstarter by them currently put it that way

Do tell!

Don't leave us hanging here - at least provide us a link!

 Alpharius wrote:

 Gomezaddams wrote:
I don't post on dakka very often any more, but thought this would be worth saying.

Mierce is a UK company. If your worried about there financial status... you can check.

I wouldn't back a Kickstarter by them currently put it that way

Do tell!

Don't leave us hanging here - at least provide us a link!

I'm assuming it's a reference to documents on: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06830539/filing-history.

That or a credit check, I'm no accountant though, but it does place their last declared accounts at a net of around -£60k (numbers in brackets on balance sheets being negative). That's only an improvement of around £2k net on the previous year.

But like I say I'm not an accountant and that could mean nothing, it's all a matter of public record though.

Interesting, I...think!

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06830539/filing-history

I can't say for certain, but yes, it paints a somewhat...dreary picture, if I'm reading thing on there correctly - and there's no guarantee of that!

Companies house is a dreadful gauge of the current financial health of a company, as most records are based on information from years ago because of the way accounts are filed, and the information for many companies is massively superficial because those under a certain size aren't obliged to report publicly in any but the most superficial detail.

So you've read the reports right Alph, but it has almost zero bearing on the current situation.

I want Mierce to survive as the mini's I have are things of beauty but this constant KS'ing and delays because of X,Y or Z (there's always something) doesnt abate the vague sense of unease that at any time they could go pop means I'm no longer willing to back anything

yxalitis wrote:
they are nearly a year overdue already.

nearly a year overdue ?


I backed New Kindreds in 2014 and I'm still waiting for magma svrill and helmed ophios, that 2.5 years overdue !
I'm never backing mierce again for anything that's not already released.

It really would be good if the rather sizable backlog could be greatly reduced and eventually eliminated.

That is the 'plan' for 2018, as we've been told...

Companies house is a dreadful gauge of the current financial health of a company, as most records are based on information from years ago because of the way accounts are filed, and the information for many companies is massively superficial because those under a certain size aren't obliged to report publicly in any but the most superficial detail.

So you've read the reports right Alph, but it has almost zero bearing on the current situation.

Yes... and no. Theres a lot of 'blanks' in terms of what Mierce does to generate cash outside of kickstarter. With a range that big, I'm not sure why there still going to Kickstarter.

Or, to cut it another way - Darkholds had £58k before funding was cancelled... and rather then relaunching it in the new year they try a new kickstarter for existing things.... which seems to be failing. Also they didn't log in today. And why on Earth would you launch a campaign for £10k in January. Thats madness.

Don't get me wrong - I hope this is wild speculation and I'm wrong... but with that amount of figures outstanding, still running kickstarters for new models, and no one really buying your existing stock... theres a bigger issue.

As to why the KS was launched it sounds like they just wanted to advertise and sell the resculpted armed werewolves. Rob said he wasn't expecting this one to take off big time on day 1 in the comments,

no doubt because of the date (although that doesn't seem to be hurting HATE or Nemesis) and the Single kindred focus (all previous ones have launched with a mix even if they would have had to break stretch goals to get them)

and Rob said in the comments that he had commitments at home this weekend so he wouldn't be around much if at all


as too Darkholds I imagine they're still trying to work out whether they can produce something to relaunch that has enough appeal to fund. A lot of the feedback from those that were interested but didn't back was a mix of

more detailed finished rules and art design assets (possible but will take time especially when it's now being done on the side as KS isn't paying for it)

that they wanted even more new unique sculpts (thus pushing the costs up, although some of that increase may be reduced as more digital sculpts are done by Bob)

that they wanted a 'standard' dungeon crawl with more mixed random enemies (possibly doable but then it's not a Darklands game and a lot of the hope was that it could lead into the wargame)

a lower funding target (just not possible unless they under cost and risk having to kill a funded project)

All completely valid points.

Lower funding/risk of failing - I get that. But other companies meet some of that with there own capital, and I don't think they have it... and at this stage they probably should.

There's very little activity about Mierce outside of this thread which given the number of sculpts, quality of the figures etc. Is surprising. How are they selling figures outside of Kickstarter is my question - especially with so many figures outstanding

Like I said, if love to be wrong. Let's come back in 12 months and see where things are at.