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gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The fact you listed Grey Knights as having good screening units means you're not to be taken seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, I literally stopped reading the list after that.

oh really because i've got several games with this list and its currently undefeated:

Grey knights patrol
Grand master (soul spear, first to the fray, sanctuary)
7 Grey knight terminators (swords, no upgrades, sanctuary)
6 Grey knight terminators (swords no upgrades, sanctuary)

Mechanicus spear head
TPD
Onager (neutron laser)
Onager (neutron laser)
2x Kastelans (3x phosphor blasters each)
Datasmith

Literally tabled a dark angels player by turn three last night. Decisive blow was dealt by the datasmith in CC

Also Acolytes don't have 3 wounds.

Unless it's a typo i'm reading the book right now and yes they do.

Not in a tournament setting. I don't care you tabled Dark Angels! Nobody does!

Also Grey Knight Terminators are garbage for screening as they're way too expensive, and Acolytes were in a Errata that anyone could've seen coming. So something tells me you're not really playing the game.

You guys do you boo. You can keep whining about being bottom tier or you can think outside the box kthnx bye

One thing I don't get is you guys do talk about the dragoons as if they always have shroudpsalm. But you can only pick it once, or you have to roll it and be within +/- 1 with Cawls ability correct?

So once out of 5 rounds you can say yes my Dragoons have shroudpsalm. I have had a number of units fight me that dont give cover bonus's similar to our omnispex tho.

gendoikari87 wrote:
You guys do you boo. You can keep whining about being bottom tier or you can think outside the box kthnx bye

You dont even know the faq - errata acolytes where first to change and obvious to all. I also agree with the rest of the commends . Your points are paper wise seems like you are not testing what you write. There is no unit so far that has 68 point 6 wounds 6 t fast with -1 to hit incense cloud. Not shroudpsalm. Also a big base to cover a side with only two.

As for soldier said already i use infantry ig. Dragoons are not infantry. T6 with 6w usually 3+ save and 6 invu is not infantry. I specifically stated the difference.
60 points 20 conscripts. Lots of armies can easily kill soldiers not as many guns to kill dragoons. Point made enemy has to waste some good weapons to kill them. Is it hard to understand?

The dragoons definitely seem more useful than a 5man Vanguard unity with a couple of weapons.

I ran my full 15 blandguard this last game and all they were good for was dying. It did let the electro priests get into melee and get their save however

Sadly I think at work we will end up playing more smaller point games which I don't feel Admech is that good at

Whatever without proof or math you opinion is just an opinion. You keep doing what works for you I'll do what works for me, and it's working well

gendoikari87 wrote:
Whatever without proof or math you opinion is just an opinion. You keep doing what works for you I'll do what works for me, and it's working well

I'm sure someone here already provided math.

Speaking of math, you mentioned Tactical Marines and ANYBODY can tell you mathematically they aren't durable. Hypocrisy much?

Jaynen wrote:
One thing I don't get is you guys do talk about the dragoons as if they always have shroudpsalm. But you can only pick it once, or you have to roll it and be within +/- 1 with Cawls ability correct?

So once out of 5 rounds you can say yes my Dragoons have shroudpsalm. I have had a number of units fight me that dont give cover bonus's similar to our omnispex tho.

Yes, Cawl is the enabler here. Given where Shroudpsalm is on the table, a +1/-1 will get us there most of the time. In an average 6 turn game, I usually have it the whole time. Maybe one round without so to outlier rolls.

And if they ignore cover, that's fine. It is just a perk when it works. It isn't a lynchpin to our army, just a useful ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The fact you listed Grey Knights as having good screening units means you're not to be taken seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like, I literally stopped reading the list after that.

oh really because i've got several games with this list and its currently undefeated:

Grey knights patrol
Grand master (soul spear, first to the fray, sanctuary)
7 Grey knight terminators (swords, no upgrades, sanctuary)
6 Grey knight terminators (swords no upgrades, sanctuary)

Mechanicus spear head
TPD
Onager (neutron laser)
Onager (neutron laser)
2x Kastelans (3x phosphor blasters each)
Datasmith

Literally tabled a dark angels player by turn three last night. Decisive blow was dealt by the datasmith in CC

Also Acolytes don't have 3 wounds.

Unless it's a typo i'm reading the book right now and yes they do.

Wow. Really? That list is awful. Overpriced GK and a smattering of AdMech without Cawl... Just seems weak.

Given your attitude and the fact plenty of us here have shown our games, lists, and whatnot, you seem to be a troll. I think I did my part in explaining, but you are officially on my ignore list now. I don't have time for trolls.

Guys, why are you wasting your time with this servitor. He's proven his incompetance time and time again.
Just ignore him like you would ignore a fly.

Anything you say, he'll yell at "but THAT'S NOT DATAH". I mean he literally said "math is not data". xD
About his list he'll say "I always win against my friends(who in 2 years will be 13) and it has been untested in tournaments(because the list is so terrible no one would take it)

Also Grey Knight Terminators are garbage for screening as they're way too expensive, and Acolytes were in a Errata that anyone could've seen coming. So something tells me you're not really playing the game.

Yeah, they're expensive because they're good. Rapid fire 2 is a thing. Now they may not be as good as regular grey knights but i'm not going through the hassle of putting those together. nor are they as good as a giant blob of conscripts which i don't have the time money or patience for.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Whatever without proof or math you opinion is just an opinion. You keep doing what works for you I'll do what works for me, and it's working well

I'm sure someone here already provided math.

Speaking of math, you mentioned Tactical Marines and ANYBODY can tell you mathematically they aren't durable. Hypocrisy much?

no no they really haven't . but lets compare the tactical squad to the standard dragoon

Dragoons get
6W at T6 with a 4+ save 3 Str8 hits that MIGHT if the dice gods are kind be a total of 5 or more at most. and it has NO shooting ability what so ever save maybe for a phosphor serpenta

The marines get
5W at T4 with 3+ saves and 6 str4 hits ... now all things being even that dragoon is ever so slightly more durable, you wound on one higher and it has ONE more wound than the marines..... but the marines have 5-10 shooting attacks .... and that's before you start adding bells and whistles which while making them ever so slightly more expensive would also make them vastly more powerful.

I'm leaving this thread after saying this as a public service announcement:

Think outside the box, the ability to do damage matters, and melta guns exist. you do you boo. I'll do me. Good luck and peace the feth out

Now you all go on my ignore list because frankly you have proven you can't do anything other than parrot the same old lines, nor can you think critically and certainly not outside the box. good day, good night and goodbye

So in order to steer the conversation in literally any other direction...

Skitarii infantry are pretty underwhelming right now, a combination of factors prevent them from being threatening on their own and they're fairly expensive if taken purely as chaff units to screen for your big guns. Would people rather fix the former or the latter? If the former, what buffs would seem appropriate?

A scout move and Bionics being changed to FNP would help a lot with Skitarii being good on their own without decreasing the points cost, I think.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
So in order to steer the conversation in literally any other direction...

Skitarii infantry are pretty underwhelming right now, a combination of factors prevent them from being threatening on their own and they're fairly expensive if taken purely as chaff units to screen for your big guns. Would people rather fix the former or the latter? If the former, what buffs would seem appropriate?

A scout move and Bionics being changed to FNP would help a lot with Skitarii being good on their own without decreasing the points cost, I think.

I'd also change 2 damage on 6 into mortal wound and maybe add the doctrina back. They need a lot of help.

AND maybe a pts reduction. Like they are one of the worst units of one of the worst faction tournament results wise. No player who won a major tournament is taking them seriously. The BAO winner outright stated in a podcast that AdMech pretty much have no troops choices.

You can say your anecdotal evidence of "I never lose with my AdMech"(I haven't either) but results speak for themselves. AdMech making to top 16 is a pipe dream. We can't even crack top 50.

I saw the glaring weaknesses in AdMech and switched to Daemons(which sadly only have cheese lists as viable lists) and whenever I've played against AdMech I just crushed them both VP and combat wise. It's sad. Hope the Codex is all it's cracked up to be by Reece.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
So in order to steer the conversation in literally any other direction...

Indeed & many thanks for doing so.

I think people here should calm down a wee bit, take a breath and so forth.

Wow. That turned negative really fast. >_>

@gendoikari87
Conscripts are great and Sisters with Celestine are good too. If you want to use them, all the more power to you. In fact, we had a discussion about both about 20 pages back (and another about Sisters more recently) and generally received them positively. However, many were concerned about how we would be committing to tabling the enemy with them, as it would be a shield-and-sword strategy.

The rest I am a bit skeptical about. As mentioned, Acolytes got errata'ed, and some wouldn't be what I consider screening units.

This all being said, they don't do what Dragoons do. Some of these units are faster, cheaper, tougher, and have better damage output, sure. But each lacks one or more of these properties entirely. Dragoons are unique in that they have the first three properties, and many of us have used them to our advantage. If it helps, don't think of Dragoons as an attacking unit, but as a support unit; he defends and acts as a force multiplier.

@rvd1ofakind
Yeah... AdMech isn't top tier in this current metagame because of how tournaments are structured. Your placement is not really determined by how strong your matchups are, but by how bad your worst matchups are. Specifically, we get blown out by pure assault armies. In this regard, Guard/Soup has a huge advantage. Still fingers-crossed for double Avenger Mechanicum Knights.

I'm running an Imperial Soup army for an escalation league, and am starting to have a bit of difficulty determining when Cawl starts to justify his cost in a soup list over a regular Dominus.

I'll be moving from 1250 over to 1500 soon, and with the increase in points, the full list is going to have a greater need to pull its own list over a couple of stand-out centrepieces. With that in mind, while Cawl hasn't been harmful to me in my previous games, paying for him just to support a single Dunecrawler doesn't strike me as an exactly prudent decision.
The short range on his gun and lack of mobility (combined with his preference for sticking back with his toys) means that he won't often be doing much direct fighting unless things start going badly to begin with. And even when he does get stuck in, I've found that the results are less than impressive (that said, my Cawl has a tendency to roll horribly).

Here's what I sit at right now at 1250. I'd say that it's moderately competitive, with a selection of fairly strong options, albeit with some exploitable weaknesses mainly revolving around hordes (Yes, I know I don't get Canticles with these detatchments yet):

Supreme Command
HQ:
Greyfax
Tempestor Prime
Tempestor Prime

Elites:
Tempestus Command Squad (4*plasma)
Tempestus Command Squad (4*plasma)

Vanguard Detachment:
HQ:
Celestine (1*Geminae) (Warlord)
Cawl

Troops:
Battle Sister Squad (3*stormbolter)

Elites:
Astropath (las pistol)
Eversor Assassin
Culexus Assassin

Heavy Support:
Manticore (Heavy Bolter)
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)

I'm not too sure exactly how I'm going to expand going up to 1500. Dropping Cawl for a regular Dominus would give me a lot more room to work with, but how much value I get is really dependant on what goes in there instead. Throwing in a pair of dunecrawlers to easily gain some canticles seems like a pretty standard, if somewhat boring solution. I love the aesthetics of Ballistari and Dragoons, but I'm not sure how they'd fit into a list like this. As cool as Infiltrators are, they strike me as just being bad, especially after the nerf. Granted, I'm not everything in this next expansion has to come from ad mech, but I'd like to consider the options available here, even if only because they look cool.

Any thoughts?

Um... running Cawl just to support just a single Onager seems really reall really really really really really really really really really bad.

He needs to support about 500 pts to be worth. Now he's supporting 143? huh?

When you take Cawl you pretty much only pay for the aura. He as a combat character is awful for his pts.

I played a few games before I got Cawl. With 2 Onagers and
2 Kastellans I still think that Cawls aura vs the TPD aura is useful but not game breaking.

His ability to have more control over canticles is pretty good too but I absolutely would not be spending points on him in your soup army.

My army is all admech except for a command squad/scions detachment for deepstrike

If you play co petitive ad mech today without

Spearhead

Cawl
6 heavy options you dont play ad mech for me.

Still surprised no-one has tried a combo of Crawl with Corpus Eletro Priests; I would have thought all those re-rolls with exploding 6s would be a great way to deal with the horde meta/anything within 18" (or more, since they'd still be very effective even running - though they would lose out on the exploding 6s)

I'd actually be interested in if that works or not. It sounds good at first glance, but so does Kastelan spam.

Edit: Honestly, I do apologize for not contributing too much (or any) new info to this thread. I haven't been playing games at all.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Still surprised no-one has tried a combo of Crawl with Corpus Eletro Priests; I would have thought all those re-rolls with exploding 6s would be a great way to deal with the horde meta/anything within 18" (or more, since they'd still be very effective even running - though they would lose out on the exploding 6s)

3 attacks at str 5 at 14 points is quite tempting. shooting MEQ they'll easily kill 2x as much as vanguard even without the explody. 12" range is going to be a hamper, so will the T3 1W and 5++only. defensively they will be consistent but weak, offensively they're decent. I see no reason not to try this out for further study

Fulg priest i got in all my lists. Corpus i dont use nor i see any use for them. I d prefer one more robot or 7 vanguard or elysian plasma squad any day.

Spamm does not exists as as mech army. All our units can do something good but wont be superb in all games.

Robots are superb cause they got -2 - cover. And can kill 36 inch obj holders. Icarus onager can contributr vs air and mass. None will be better with out the other. You need and icarus and robots and neutron. All and most likely and snipers...


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When i post in here i dont do it so i can be happy. I really try to contribute and i do so after i play lots of games.

I took 2 dragoons in my lists and place them in my flank side cause there is where a deep strike best suited to drop. I need a cc unit there and a unit with -1 for plasma is suberb. Especially with that large base. I didnt place astra militarum in flank.

I said the point is to make your enemy hard to decide and for us to win. Always consider enemy as well. Its not only how a unit costs. Dragoons in the flanks in a unit of two for me has no equal and str 8 melee.
Same goes for ig soldiers in front. At the v edge of my deployment the only viable solution is cheap no caring soldiers. Why cause usually most guns can reach them. Enemy guns and the bubblewrap need to be max front to give room to my onagers to hide away from a rapid fire plasma. And so on for all units.

There is no answer yes or no cost wise or abilities. Its about how you handle your army vs enemies. As i play ad mech and so far i have been 50% corner pew pew and 50% rush the enemy, i need options. Yes deep strike plasma is good but i see my neutron deliver as well. I got 2 deep strike elysian sure cause it remains a tactical fight after all but the survivng 11 healable neutron is better than a knight for me.
Same goes for corpus priest. Cheap specialists. They are not uber but they are superb as counter charge units. They charge and give mortals they kill and go 3+ every 6 mortals. Its an ability to provide mortals where i really need espcially vs char lists with high invu. Cheap. Cheaper than pshych. Wont change them especially since they are ad mech.

I dont know why people find it hard to face competitive lists with a soup of imperium and 1300-1500 ad mech superiority. 3-4 robots all shots rerollable not only miss not enough to kill whatever is need. Especially with a 4 invu 5-6 return mortals??
3 neutron and 2 icarus cant deal with mass or tanks? All rerollable shots ? 5 invu reroll 1s and most likely cover for vehcles with shroud?
And anything else soldiers plasma dragoons whatever you find cmpetitive . Mortal spam with inq. Astra militarum mortals plasma bla bla. Where is the problem. Is it nt cheap 143 points better than lascannon? 110 9-18 shots with great defence robot?
Spamm robots wont do it same goes for spamm onagers etc. I saw list with 8 icarus onagers smart but wont win all. Thats how it is.

If you really play the army it will deliver. Ad mech is balanced but its not equal. I made a marine list and i opened hq and gave me 23 if not more options. Yes the game seems balanced point wise as much as possible but does not mean we compare to armies 10 years evolving. Play imperium. Spreahed gi es canticles. You either way need ti abjust to more command points get battaljons or brigades with imperium so many nice options to make your army as you like. Even when we played war convo we used inq coteaz knights bunkers. Etc. I played a game and used 9 kataprhons and a tpd with a bastion was superb all super cha.
We got options as imperium the rest will come with fires or c. With codex evolving maybe from 30k maybe ne units. You wont be competitive if you try to do impossible things.

 Fafnir wrote:

I'm running an Imperial Soup army for an escalation league, and am starting to have a bit of difficulty determining when Cawl starts to justify his cost in a soup list over a regular Dominus.

This is an opportunity cost analysis. We're going to compare Cawl with the next best option, which is TPD; I am assuming you aren't playing Soup.

For the purposes of this comparison, let's assume that when we take shooting units, their entire cost is for their guns, with their durability being a sunk cost. Same goes for Cawl and the TPD's bodies.

Cawl's aura is valued at 250 - 135 = 115 additional points. TPD's reroll 1s aura improves the average dice roll by 11.9%, Cawl's by 27.78%.

Therefore, Cawl is superior to TPD when he enhances the shooting 115/(.278-.119) = 723 points. (The logic here being that at 723 points, Cawl's 27.8% aura is a 115 point improvement over the TPD's 11.9% aura.) Since 723+250 = 973, you probably want to take Cawl at 1000 points, with 100% of the rest of the army being artillery. However, I would never leave home without 272 points of Dragoons or 232 points of Conscripts and a Lord Commissar, so it's closer to the 1250 mark.

That being said, you may value Cawl's body more than a TPD's, and you may think our artillery durability may be unevenly distributed. Feel free to adjust point values around.

Posted 11/09/2017

Forge World Focus: Mars
One of the most exciting features of the new Adeptus Mechanicus codex is rules for seven different forge worlds, allowing you to customise your collection more than ever before with powerful and thematic new abilities. This week, we’ll be previewing what the forge world rules mean for your army in our daily previews of Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus in advance of the pre-order this Saturday:



Mars is clearly the most famous of all the forge worlds, and it’s not just because of how good the Adeptus Mechanicus look in red! As the birthplace of the Cult Mechanicus, Mars is the holiest of planets to the servants of the machine god, and their armies are characterised by a sense of piety and dogmatism that sets the standard for every other forge world.

Adeptus Mechanicus armies benefit from a powerful forge world dogma – equivalent to Legion Traits or Chapter Tactics – which apply to every unit in an Adeptus Mechanicus army, not just your infantry! Mars’ forge world dogma is Glory to the Omnissiah, a trait that’ll make your army very powerful, if unpredictable.



Best Units

Belisarius Cawl is perhaps the most venerated Tech-Priest in the whole Imperium, and he makes for a superb leader to any Mars army, his Archmagos ability helping to ensure that you roll the Canticles of the Omnissiah that you need as well as ensuring you never end up with a duplicated result.

Cawl’s already powerful aura abilities are significantly enhanced by the Mars Warlord Trait, Static Psalm-Code.



Corpuscarii Electro-Priests can throw out a terrifying amount of firepower; a unit of 20 with re-rolls to hit from Belisarius Cawl being nearby will inflict, on average, a colossal 80 strength 5 hits on any given enemy unit; combine this with the Wrath of Mars stratagem and you’ll deal an additional 13(!) mortal wounds as well as any other damage!

On average, you could quite handily kill Magnus or a Renegade Knight in a single round – a perfect demonstration of the Omnissiah’s power!



If you’re capable of adapting your strategy to suit the Canticles of the Omnissiah on the fly, then you’ll find Mars a versatile and powerful forge world.

Come back tomorrow when we’ll be looking at Graia, a sect of the Adeptus Mechanicus known for their ruthlessness.

Cawl OP pls nerf /s

That's definitely pretty...powerful.

Since no one else noticed - it seems Electro priests are being buffed from Assault 3 to Assault 4

What's not to like?

Hmm, so will it still be run Mars and Cawl or go home? I hope not but I have a feeling that is what we'll see still. Makes sense since there's no other named Admech characters though.

Looking forward to see what the rest of us may get. Since Lucius has teleporting titans, maybe we'll get deepstrike abilities....

Big hopes are still more HQ options, troops that are worth something, and our faction being able to be from various FWs so there is some flavor to things but not be completely gimped if you don't run Mars.

So... yea. Wrath of Mars + Kastelans + Cawl = Savage.

I mean seriously. That is about 8 mortal wounds from a unit of three on top of their normal damage. That is just rough!

Rumor is stygies gets -1 to hit beyond 12" same as raven guard. If so that might prove as powerful as mars, doubly so if it extends to titans